Jaqueline Snyder: [00:00:00] If you build a brand and people are attached to the brand, that's what they're gonna pay for. And so I really talk to my clients about not just being a commodity, but being a brand that has some sort of connection to the customer.

Hala Taha: My guest today, Jaclyn Snyder, has been behind the scenes of more than 100,000 product businesses.

Now she's the founder and CEO of The Product Boss, a multi-million dollar company helping creative entrepreneurs build profitable product businesses.

Jaqueline Snyder: My life coach says, "Math, not drama." So let's take the drama out of it and the emotion out of it, and look at your numbers and ask yourself your costs versus what you're selling for, where are the money leaks, and that would be the first thing.

Don't avoid it.

Hala Taha: If somebody has, like, a lot of different products that they sell, what is, like, the tell's tale sign that they have a bestseller? Because you say every business should really have a bestseller.

Jaqueline Snyder: People think that they need more to sell more, but if people can't refer you to something or refer somebody to you for something, it starts to-

Hala Taha: You had mentioned your bestseller, you always recommend, like, increase the price by, like, [00:01:00] 15%.

Why do you think that that's a good thing to do?

Jaqueline Snyder: Again, you look at what the market will bear. If they love it and they want it, they're going to buy

Hala Taha: it. And how do you raise your prices without pissing off your customers? You don't

Jaqueline Snyder: tell them.

Hala Taha: You just do it.

Jaqueline Snyder: You have to do it, 'cause they're not paying attention.

Now listen.

Hala Taha: Jaclyn, welcome to Young and Profiting podcast.

Jaqueline Snyder: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Thank you so much for flying out here. We were talking offline, and I was saying, like, I've seen your podcast all over. Like, we're in the same space, and I feel like your information and your expertise is gonna be so valuable for our audience.

So thank you for flying out here. Of

Jaqueline Snyder: course.

Hala Taha: So my first question to you is that it seems easier than ever to launch a business with AI, with all the stuff that we have on the internet, with Shopify. It's just so easy to actually get a business off the ground, but it's actually harder to be a profitable business in 2026 than it was five or 10 years ago.

Talk to us about why.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, so I think especially in like the product space, I, I keep seeing all [00:02:00] the AI things online where it's like, "You could do this and start, you know, your Shopify store," and all these quick ways that people wanna say it. But the thing about product is that it takes money to start it.

Mm. It takes money to build it. You know, like starting a podcast, starting an online education company or something like that, it, it doesn't take as much resources. I think profitability has really dropped 'cause, one, minimum wage has gone up. Uh, import fees, there's been all of the duty taxes and things like that.

It's much more competitive. But I just think things are costing more, and there's this mindset that comes out where people want things cheaper, but the cost of goods is everything. And I live in LA.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: And so I always joke about how my organic free-range eggs are $14. And then people online are like, "Then get chickens."

And I was like, "Great. I live in LA. I can't get chickens." But everything costs more now. And, um, what happens, I think sometimes, is that the customer doesn't necessarily come up with the cost of goods coming up. And so there's, there's more to it than just, you know, saying like, "I got to be profitable."

Hala Taha: I totally agree.

And the [00:03:00] other thing is that even though you can use AI, for example, to launch your business, it's actually very expensive to use AI, right? It costs money. Everything costs money- Yeah ... even though it seems like so easy to do. So you've got all these different systems, right? You are the owner and the inventor of Product Boss, and you basically teach people how to have successful businesses.

And you've got five different systems that you talk about. Can you walk us through at a high level these systems, and which ones tend to be the weakest usually for entrepreneurs?

Jaqueline Snyder: So entrepreneurs are squirrely, and they love all ... They have so many ideas, and they love every idea that they have. And so I would say that one of the very first things that I do with clients is really talk about focusing and leaning into their bestseller.

And so bestsellers are the number one system that we've basically, I think one of the biggest differentiators for us at The Product Boss, people think that they need more to sell more. And a lot of times, the first analysis I have with people when I talk about their product, where they're at, is like, "What's your bestseller?"

'Cause you have to double down on what the bestseller is. Um, what people want is easier to sell than the [00:04:00] thing that people don't want. Mm. So I'd say that was probably one of the, the biggest ones. The other thing that people miss is, like we talked about, profitability. There is cost of goods to product. I think that there's this misnomer, everyone's like, "Well, I don't want to be in debt."

I'm like, there's not debt. It's you're leveraging cash, especially with product. Because sometimes, like I come out of the fashion industry, it might take us an entire year to design, develop, produce, get it shipped in, then get paid by the stores. And when I worked at big stores, um, or for big stores, they pay 90 days later.

So cashflow is a huge issue, and so profitability is the place that keeps the company going.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And we're gonna get into all the different profit leaks you talk about. Mm-hmm. And we'll really dig into the bestseller stuff. But first I want to hear about your story, because it actually revolves around kind of having a bestseller.

You invented something called a couture cuff.

Jaqueline Snyder: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Tell us about that, and how you first launched and got your first customers.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So it's Cuffs Couture, and it was from my partying days back in Hollywood. Like, I was in my 20s, and, um, didn't want to carry a [00:05:00] purse. I had a best friend who, like, had the Mary Poppins purse that had- Mm-hmm

all the stuff in it. And for me, I was like, I literally just need my lip gloss, my credit card, my keys, and I'm good. And so, um, I invented this wearable wrist wallet, but it was more like an accessory where it looked like a bracelet or something cool that a cool girl would want to wear when she went out partying.

And What I did is what I teach so many clients, is I launched a website, I invested in a website, an e-commerce platform. This is pre-social media really being what it is now. We're so lucky now- Mm-hmm ... with social. Um, launched a website to crickets. Like, nobody bought. Nobody knew I existed. I was use- I always joke, I'm like, "Nobody's typing in wearable wrist wallets to wear out with your friends."

So I had to really pivot and I wasn't running ads. I didn't have the cash for that at that point. I pivoted and I got wholesale, so I got onto other people's shelves in front of other people's audiences, and then also in-person markets, um, where... You know, I'm in LA, so I could do s- where the cool girls go and shop, get right in front of them and get feedback and get them to sell.

And so I really did that, and then we were on shelves in LA, [00:06:00] and Carrie Underwood discovered my products. Oh, wow. Kim Kardashian wore my stuff. So I have, like, huge names that were discovering it because it was on shelves in front of other people's audiences, versus me having to pay to get their attention.

Hala Taha: So she just said something called other people's audiences. Mm-hmm. We've all heard of OPM- Mm-hmm ... other people's money. Talk to us about what OPA is.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I call it my OPA method. I'm like, "OPA." So one of the hardest things to do, especially for e-com brands, is to run ads to your website to strangers and have them convert on your website.

And I'll say this is particularly for a lot of people who are bootstrap that are figuring it out on their own, and I did it. It went to crickets. Again, no one's googling, and there's no way to do that. Yeah. I think we're in an AI moment right now where there is... We're teaching our clients how to be searchable and found on AI.

But let's go back to Google. And so really the idea here is how do people discover you? And I'm like, the places I've always taught is multiple sales channels, multiple distribution points. In stores, you discover stuff [00:07:00] in stores that, you know, you don't have to know the brand. A lot of times you're not like, "Let me look them up on social and see if they're on social too."

If you like it and you're there, you buy it. In person markets, Amazon, last I checked it was like one in four households, um, had Amazon Prime.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Jaqueline Snyder: So they trust the platform, their, their credit card's already in it, and so they discover your product there, they do that. Or marketplaces like Etsy. So I usually teach my clients how do you go where your customer is- Mm-hmm

where you don't have to pay for the traffic immediately. The traffic is there, you get to present in front of it, and then we get to work on driving traffic to your website.

Hala Taha: Yeah, and for so long the focus was online, but now in-person events are becoming popular again. Mm. Especially with younger audiences, right?

Jaqueline Snyder: Oh, it's insane. So what's kind of crazy is in 2026 it's still five out of six dollars are spent in person.

Hala Taha: Oh.

Jaqueline Snyder: Still.

Hala Taha: Whoa.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I don't know how much of that is grocery, but the, the consensus is five out of six dollars are still in person. And Gen Z is bringing back the mall, which makes my like '80s and '90s self so excited.

Uh, my [00:08:00] kids like to go to the mall again. And so if you actually look at malls, you can see that a lot of the stores happening in the malls are for younger kids. Like, they're kind of like those teenage stores. Um, and then, you know, the Create Cultivate had like this incredible women's festival, and there

I had multiple clients that had booths there. I have like goosebumps telling you that because I'm just so proud of my clients. And so people are wanting, in the age of AI- Well, at one point we were analog and we're like, "Let's go digital." Now in the age of AI and everything being digital, and I think coming, you know, the last six years of being in our houses or working from home, people really wanna experience people again.

I just believe that people are always gonna be where people are. And think, I just want everyone to think about, like, what they've discovered in real life. I actually wanna say, um, the HomeGoods stores and, like, TJ Maxx stores. Mm-hmm. So HomeGoods, if you think about HomeGoods, you go in there and there's only ever, like, two to four things of, of, like, a vase.

Not- Mm ... you know, there's like you're in discovery. Yeah. People love to discover. They feel like they're at a market and they're discovering something new, and they know, "If I don't buy that one vase, I won't be able [00:09:00] to get it later."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm, like there's not so many of

Jaqueline Snyder: those- Yeah ...

Hala Taha: vases at

Jaqueline Snyder: HomeGoods. And so they have- Yeah

to buy it in the moment.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: So, you know, they feel, like, excited, "What am I gonna discover?" They go, they explore. Sort of like a marketplace. HomeGoods is just, I think they just opened up 800 new doors.

Hala Taha: Wow.

Jaqueline Snyder: Which shows the idea of in-person and discovery and what people are craving.

Hala Taha: I love that. That's so, like, insightful.

Like, I didn't even realize that that was going on. It's cool, right? So let's talk about your bestseller strategy. If somebody has, like, a lot of different products that they sell, what, what is, like, the tell's tale sign that they have a bestseller, or, like, what should they be thinking about? Because you say every business should really have a bestseller.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I call it your hero product or your core collection. So if we think back to shoe companies, for example, like TOMS Shoes when TOMS Shoes came out, or Havaianas, right? It was one shoe and multiple variations. They didn't think that they were gonna have high heels and sneakers, and it was, like, one shoe, variations.

Um, or there's a core collection, so if you think about, like, a cosmetic brand or skincare, they're creating [00:10:00] a regimen, so it's, like, a few different things that they're gonna put on. I come out of fashion, so we had collections. When I used to design swimwear, I knew we were an Italian lingerie company, and people loved the skimpy stuff.

So if I was designing a collection for swimwear, I had lots of tie-side bikinis, tie-tie tops, like tiny little bathing suits. Mm-hmm. And then maybe I'd have one Um, one piece. Because you've gotta look at what the customer wants. So when we think about best sellers, a lot of times I tell people the Pareto principle is 80/20 rule.

And when they really look at their numbers, they realize that 80% of their revenue is dr- driven by 20% of their products. What happens, I think, is people think that they need more to sell more. If I had more things to sell people, more people would buy from me. But if people can't refer you to something, or refer somebody to you for something, it starts to, it starts to get messy.

So candle companies can have lots of variations of scents. Jewelry, you might be like, "Okay, I do really well with my necklaces and my thin chain necklaces." [00:11:00] So maybe you're not gonna make chunky necklaces, and you're not gonna put all your money into bracelets or earrings if they're not there. So I think it's really looking at what the customer wants and what you're best at, and to put more of your focus there, 'cause the revenue's gonna be driven from it.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And you always say to not reinvent the wheel. Like, just iterate on your current product for, like, a slightly different audience or tell us more about that.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So I say you can't reinvent the wheel, but you can redesign it.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: I always go back to Juicy, so I'm just gonna, like, fully date myself-

on this podcast. And so Juicy Couture, if you think about them, I actually bought, way back in n- like '97, denim from Juicy, and this is prior to them ever coming out with the tracksuits. And once they hit on the tracksuit, they made every single variation of it, like every color. They made shorts. They had ones with puff sleeves.

Mm-hmm. They had all these different variations. And I bring that up a lot, because I'm like, you think those women wanted to keep making every... Like, they were probably, "Please don't show me another piece of velour fabric to look at a color." But the money, the money was there.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: And so what I do with my clients [00:12:00] is really just thinking through, like, well, where is the money?

Where- And you wanna run it long enough that it still generates, but not too long that it tanks the company, and Lululemon's doing that right now. Lululemon, like, went off the cliff because they didn't, they didn't change fast enough. So you're saying Lululemon took it too far. Lululemon did not update their styles for too long.

So if you think about Alo and Lululemon, like Alo stayed really trendy and sexy. Lululemon was like, "Nope, we're gonna stay with the same styles, the same basics." But the customer started to shift. Mm. And so they've just, I think they've just gone down about 20%, um, in their, you know, revenue because they just did not update the best seller or update the best seller to the times.

So if it was still leggings- Let's keep leggings going. But they missed actually, women aren't wearing leggings as much. They're wearing more of like the track suits and sweatpants.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. And so they didn't shift fast enough into that.

Hala Taha: So aside from sales, like obviously with your bestseller you can see like this one generates the most revenue.

Mm-hmm. But what other KPI should we be looking at for our bestsellers?

Jaqueline Snyder: [00:13:00] Yeah, well, I, I think one of the things to talk about is the more you make of something, the cheaper it is per unit.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Jaqueline Snyder: So when, when you're making something and you're able to get multiples of the jars, the raw goods, and you're getting...

The more you get of that, the lower you can bring the cost down to make the product, and labor changes and everything. So really with your bestseller, I think it's also profitable. I talk about a client oftentimes that when I did look at her bestseller, it ended up being a product that- Front end was bestseller.

Back end was so problematic. It had breakage, customers were returning it a ton. Um, it was taking up so many resources from a financial standpoint and team standpoint. So we actually had to do... I- you know, these authors say, "Kill your darlings." And we had to kill the darling and say, "Okay, well what's your second-best seller?"

Which was another product that was actually a much better product. She shifted to that, created all these variations of it. She did so well she stopped selling wholesale, 'cause she was selling out every week and was able to sell direct to consumer. So I think we have to look at the profitability [00:14:00] behind the product, the complexity of it.

Um, and then where there is always the paying, it's, here's the deal. Entrepreneurs get bored, and they move on before the customer's ready to move on. Mm.

Hala Taha: So true.

Jaqueline Snyder: So you gotta keep... It's like, like I said, about the Juicy Couture track suits, it's like, it might make you crazy, but I'm like, "Do you, would you rather make money or be creative?"

I'm like, "Let's make money."

Hala Taha: But to your point, like, you can't do the same thing forever. At, at some point it gets stale. So like, what are the signs to know, all right, it's time to pivot, or, or how do you pay attention to better?

Jaqueline Snyder: One of the things a- as a fashion designer, my whole entire job was to pay attention to culture and to travel and see what's going on.

It's kind of a superpower that I have, that I can be out and just see, oh, I see this thing coming. Um, and being on the back end of, you know, I've been on the back end of, like, 100,000 plus, uh, businesses. So I think what you have to look at is are the numbers dropping, and why? Like, what's happening and why?

Sometimes there's something broken in the business, but if the trends are moving on, then you might wanna shift it. So I'll go [00:15:00] back to candles. Let's say candles, people were doing it and they were doing it with synthetic scents and synthetic wax, and then there was a major shift towards health and a conversation about what you're burning in your house.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: If your clients care about it, you either need to adjust to what your clients care about, or you keep being, you know, there's other brands that still exist because people don't care, they just want the cheaper product. So then you have to just pay attention to culturally and then match it back to your customer and say, "Is it time?

Is my customer asking for something else, or is something broken on the back end?"

Hala Taha: Uh, let's talk about pricing, 'cause you just talked about the cheapest price.

Jaqueline Snyder: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: With platforms out there like Temu- Mm-hmm ... and things like that, what's the problem with wanting to be the cheapest out there?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. It's really hard to race to the bottom, and whenever...

I always tell my clients, I'm like, "You're not competing with Target. Like, Target is literally not your competition, or Walmart. We've gotta compete with small brands and sell to people who have money." Um, as a small business, the privilege to be able to sell to people with money is great, and I think- A lot of my clients [00:16:00] might start locally, and their environment does not match necessarily the product.

Mm. So it's kind of thinking bigger and thinking on a national scale or an international scale. Um, the problem with racing to the bottom is there's no margins. If you're coming out with a product that is specifically margin-oriented, cheap, you wanna sell y- lots and lots of units- Mm-hmm ... and you're able to scale, great.

Most people aren't necessarily there yet, and I ... And so Temu has knocked off several of my clients. Really? So I'm very anti, um, Temu. They'll actually, like, use their physical pictures and put it on there. I even had a client knock herself off so she can compete with Temu.

Hala Taha: Oh my God.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. And there's some changes right now happening, um, with, uh, imports and, and that's gonna help maybe even the playing field with them.

But the thing is is if you build a brand, going back to Alo and lululemon- Yeah ... if you ... We can go on Temu and get knock-offs of all of that right now. Mm-hmm. But if you build a brand and people are attached to the brand, that's what they're gonna pay for. And so I really talk to my clients about not just being a commodity, but being a brand that [00:17:00] has some sort of connection to the customer, and yeah, we'll lose a percentage of clients to cheaper stuff, but if you want your business to thrive, we've gotta sell to the right customer and match 'em.

Actually, I ac- tell a lot of people to raise their prices because a, a lot of times when you raise your price you actually start to attract a better customer.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: They might not even be buying 'cause they might think it's cheap, what's wrong with it. I totally agree. Um, can you give us an example of a type of product that makes sense to try to be the cheapest versus a product that doesn't make sense.

Yeah. So I work with a coloring book company. She's actually based out here in Austin. She does coloring books for adults. And it makes sense to be cheaper. What's funny is she started at $5, she's gone up to $8. She's selling at Whole Foods, Target, like, all these huge places. But as a coloring book, we've gotta think, well, what's the value behind it and will customers reach that?

Plus she can sell tons of those units. So I would say products like that on the cheaper side. Um- When I'll go to, like, pricing higher, I joke about Oil of [00:18:00] Olay, like the product. So if you go to a CVS or you go to a grocery store and you're trying to buy skincare, but then La Mer is $200 or $300 for two ounces, I ask clients, like, if you looked at them, which face cream do you think would be the thing that would do good to your face?

Yeah, be better. And they always pick the more expensive one.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: And so we've got to think again to the, the customer, what they want, what the end result is. Because even if you're... You know, I've got my pricing margins and markups, but sometimes we could mark up more and more and more because the customer will pay it.

It's better for you to have a bigger margin, um, and, and it actually equates value for them.

Hala Taha: Now how about something like a candle? Like you can have a candle that's 30 bucks, and you can have a candle that's 300 bucks. If it's the same type of candle, what's the difference there in terms of being able to charge higher?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. It's the brand. And I think that's where people get lost, and I- I've seen this happen for people on Amazon and Etsy, where they're making a product, and when customers come find it, they're looking product to product. Where's the [00:19:00] cheapest mama necklace I can get on Etsy, or the best reviews, but they may be looking price to price, or on Amazon, towel to towel.

With thinking about the candle business, I mean, I actually did just burn a $300 candle- ... but I didn't realize. So my sister-in-law gifted me this candle. I hope it was

Hala Taha: good. It

Jaqueline Snyder: was so good. And I found out... So she gifted it to me. She's, she is, uh, very wealthy. Like she wears Chanel. Like that's her clothing- Mm

her everything, not just a bag, but like what she wears. So her price point at that, a $300 candle, was a giftable product the same way that a t- $30 candle would be giftable by someone else to someone. So I think we've, we're attracting the right customers. This is what I was saying about the markup. They could literally be the same price for the jar and the wax and the wick and the fragrance.

All of that can be the same, but it's the brand that you've established. I, I joke about Chanel bags actually. Like you can knock off a Chanel bag, but they're buying the brand name to it- Mm-hmm ... and what's associated with it. And so I think that's, that's the difference between it is the brand is the thing that's going to [00:20:00] elevate it-

Hala Taha: Yeah

Jaqueline Snyder: or disqualify it for some people.

Hala Taha: And I also feel like having such a high price point- Makes it exclusive by default. So these people are like, "Well, only, only like, you know, the richest people can buy this $300 candle, therefore it is more valuable- Yeah ... because so few people can actually buy this and gift this."

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I mean, that's a play even with, like, Hermès and Kelly bags, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you have to spend a certain amount at Hermès to even be able to have them position and sell you one of these bags. And so that exclusivity attracts a very specific customer. Nespresso did this back in the day. We lived in New York City, and, um, there was a Nespresso cafe, and it was before you c- everyone had them.

And so we felt so bougie. They gave us this little leather, um, key fob.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: We'd go in. We'd scan it. They'd be like, "Oh, n- nice to meet you, Mrs. Snyder. And, like- Mm ... this is, these are the coffees that you buy," and they had it all in the register, and they'd pour me a Nespresso, and it was so up-leveled.

Obviously, the brand has grown, and it's, and it's been [00:21:00] more to the masses, but they were on Fifth Avenue With the people that lived in New York City, and they were creating a vibe so that then eventually it could, let's say, I wouldn't say dil- dilute, but then be more mass-market.

Hala Taha: Yeah. It, like, started off really, really exclusive.

And ex- I remember, like, Nespresso used to be, like, very expensive. Yeah. Okay. You actually have a really cool formula for pricing for, like, most products. You say basically you double for, for wholesale, and then you double that for retail.

Jaqueline Snyder: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Help us understand that framework.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, so that's a super simple, simple, like, just, you know, if we were to work together, we'd really get into the nitty-gritty.

Yeah. But it's cost of goods times two at least. Um, and then ti- that's your wholesale price. And then your wholesale price times two at least for your retail price. Retailers typically, at least in the fashion world, will actually mark up from wholesale to retail about 2.2% to 2.3%. But that's, like, the most basic because so many times I see people from cost of goods, they're not including the right labor.

They're not including all the pieces that need to go into costing of the product. And then some people are like, "Well, I'll [00:22:00] never sell wholesale," so they, they wanna skip over that middle part. And it's just not gonna work because in this moment, if you make that decision, fine, but I'd rather, I'd rather you guys make as much profit as possible- Yeah

and as much margin because that allows for the business to grow. That allows you to pay yourself, build a team. And so yeah, it's a two X times two X, and then depending on the business, if it's again, like, skincare, or if it's jewelry, or if it's fashion, we could go up to, like, you know, cost of goods times four times four.

It just really depends on the category you're in.

Hala Taha: Yeah. This might be a really dumb question, but for people who n- are not in product, like, what is exactly wholesale? Is that just, like, direct to consumer, or is that, like, what, what is whole- Great question. Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So wholesale is what we sell it to the stores for before they sell it to the customer.

Hala Taha: Got it.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Jaqueline Snyder: So if I was making a product, like my cuffs, they were $5 to make. I sold them $11 wholesale. And so let's say Boutique A bought it for 11 bucks, and then they sold it to the customer for $25. That means, 'cause we're in partnership with our retailers, so it allows profit and margin for us [00:23:00] from cost of goods to wholesale, and then wholesale to retail price is what the store will make.

Obviously, if you sell direct to consumer- There's way better margin. Um, but then, you know, you're dealing with your own marketing and, and all the other bits that come with it. And

Hala Taha: you don't wanna be significantly cheaper, I guess, than what they sell in the stores, so then you'll end up making a lot more money online then because you'll be at that higher retail price without the middleman.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I always tell people, "Don't ever undercut your retailers. They're your partners." And so when I sold to Macy's or bigger brands like that, there's MSRP, the manufactured suggested retail price. You'll see that on a barcode.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Jaqueline Snyder: That's because when you're selling to bigger stores, you can't, um, undercut like a Macy's or a Whole Foods, right?

So when we start to expand into these bigger retailers, there's more rules at play. But listen, you guys, like, if they're in a s- shop, we want them to buy from the shop. They're your partners. We don't want them to jump on your website and like look at your website, and it's undercutting them or go to Amazon.

In fact, a lot of my clients price higher on Amazon because the shipping and the 2-Day is [00:24:00] included. So yeah, so it's really the amount that you sell it for, but then if you're selling direct to consumer, the margin's there for you. And so that's why this mix of sales channels and distribution channels, that means we've got little pieces of the pie everywhere, and so if one faucet turns off, you've got another one you can turn on.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And for my listeners out there who have agencies, I have a podcast network and an agency, and I also do a similar formula for whatever service that I offer, whether it's running people's LinkedIn or Instagram. We usually just double how much it costs to actually do that service-

Jaqueline Snyder: Mm-hmm ...

Hala Taha: in terms of pricing it because that way, like, we can incorporate our tools, like executive leadership, whatever, and then we, we always end up at like a 30% profit margin because there are other things that cost money that you, like, don't really realize when you're, like, pricing it out.

So talk to us about some of these profit leaks in product businesses.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that people don't think about is just marketing expenses. Mm. So, um, if you're selling on a channel, like if you're selling on [00:25:00] Amazon, there are massive amounts of fees for the seller that come out. If you're selling on Etsy, there's a percentage they take out.

People sometimes are like, "Well, I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna get on it because, um, you know, it, it's gonna cost me money." But when I was running my company, I didn't have access to all these tools. I had to do it all myself, so like it's the cost of doing business.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: And so a big profit leak tends to be that.

I would say other ones is they're not doing the right margin or markup. They don't renegotiate for their, their raw goods. So there's so many times that we can go back in and save money versus make more money, so how are you going back in and asking for the votives, like the candle vases to be less, or you're buying more in bulk for wax so you can get that lesser.

Um, there's a few levers that I have them pull when it comes to that, but really it's this idea of like how do you save money without- affecting the quality of it. And, um, and then also that's why pricing is so important, is that you have the space for these margins for any of these deductions. You know, listen, I, I sold to, like, revolve.com at one point, [00:26:00] and we had to give an 18%-off discount for marketing and for selling to them.

So, like, they will take discounts as well. So we just- if you have the right margin, you've got the room to move things around.

Hala Taha: And one of the ways that you can, uh, save on marketing is actually back to OPA- Mm-hmm ... Other People's Audiences. Mm-hmm. Like podcasts, like you're on. I'm sure I'm gonna be generating sales for you.

What are some other audiences where you can just, like, collab and not necessarily have to pay for traffic, like paid ads and stuff like that?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So I call it POP marketing, which is paid, organic, and partnership. Paid is what we're talking about, and, you know, there's... The thing with product is if you pay for ads, it's like cost of acquisition plus your production, so it's very fine margins there.

Um, so organic is social. Organic is getting on the podcast. Organic is whenever you can get in front of them, or traditional word of mouth. Like, we discover- Yeah ... like, if I was like, "Oh my God, your lashes are so cute. What's your mascara?" Mm-hmm. You'd be like, "This is what it is," and I'd go buy it. So that's the thing.

I think it's [00:27:00] the organic part of it, and we're so lucky in this day and age to have access to humans around the world. Yeah. I would've had to... You know, I had a buying group in Japan that I had to work with to get to Japan. Organic's like just whenever you can get in front of people. I'll go back to partnership.

Yeah. So partnership is with creators. Partnership is collaboration. So, you know, if you're a baby brand and you sell pacifiers, and this person sells baby pajamas, can you collab together and get in front of each other's audiences? It's, it's what we do here on podcasts, right? Yeah. Um, and so partnership is anything with creators, anything with collaborations and brands, pop-ups, anytime that you can just be in partnership with people.

And so it- marketing really crosses over with sales. Um, you know- But I really dig into people doing organic and partnership before they ever pay for ads.

Hala Taha: Yeah. At what point do you feel like somebody is ready for paid ads, or is it a strategy that you never really recommend?

Jaqueline Snyder: No, I do. I do recom- recommend ads.

I think the difference is, it just depends on their sophistication in their business, and do they have the money to run it, [00:28:00] 'cause you're gonna pay an agency. Don't recommend you guys run your own ads if you don't know what you're doing.

Hala Taha: Yeah, you'll just waste- ... a lot of money, trust me.

Jaqueline Snyder: It's so much money, and it's needing a lot of content from us.

So, like, you really need to do that right. The problem with paid ads, if your website doesn't convert, you're driving traffic to something that's broken, and you've three seconds. I call it the grandma test. Yep. If my grandma were to land on your website, would she know what you make and sell, and would she know what- where to go, what the user experience is?

So if we're gonna run traffic there and it's gonna break, then what's the point?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: Um, so there's two issues usually. It's, it's traffic and then conversion. And then when we're converting, are you making enough money, again, that it pays back for the ad, that it pays for the product, that it pays for shipping?

And then what we do, we have a formula where you've acquired the customer, then it's the lifetime value. Like, how quickly can we get them to come back in and buy again once you've paid to acquire, acquire them? So I think some clients 100%, we've done it in their first year. Because they're like, "Yes, I want this.

Yes, I'll pay to get a site that converts really well. I'll pay for my user experience and for ads." And then other people are like, "Well, you know." I just, [00:29:00] I'll never tell you to waste your money, ever.

Hala Taha: So let's say you're a founder who doesn't have a lot of resources, but you've got access to Instagram, and TikTok, and LinkedIn.

You say there's really a difference between posting and promoting, and a lot of people kind of mess that up. They think, "Well, I'm posting all the time, but I'm not generating sales." So what are, like, the red flags of a creator that might be posting a lot but not generating sales?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, so you have to really think about why someone's following you.

I think social has been taking a bit of a turn. I mean, if you guys follow brands, you may not be buying off that brand page, right? Like, I follow Nike. I don't, Nike doesn't pop up in my algorithm and that's when I purchase. Mm-hmm. But maybe I see someone I love, like a creator wearing it. I'm like, "Oh, I like those," and I see them in a store and I'll buy them.

Um, promoting really what people miss is the idea of promotions. So what are we focusing on every single week of your business? If you are a bigger brand, you might be sending five emails a week. I want everyone to send at least one email a week. And so if it's like, "Okay, I'm dropping my [00:30:00] fall collection.

Here's the fall collection." And then on social we wanna really highlight the fall collection, why it makes sense to the client in the season. They can see it being worn or used in the environment, so they're, they're starting to imagine themselves using it. Then the next week might still be the fall collection, but the bestseller in the fall collection, and now we're, like, highlighting the bestseller.

And I think that, you know, I see so many people post like, "I'm at this market this week." Okay, that's turning it into like an informational page.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: Versus how do we engage with it? I used to... There was this brand a long time ago that was a pajama brand, and as they were coming up, they had all their beautiful like model photos.

They're gorgeous. But the things that went the most viral were pictures of baby animals sleeping.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: So think about it. It's a pajama company, it's associated with sleep, and they were going viral with the baby animals sleeping, like a little duck falling asleep- Mm ... or a bunny. And so while it didn't sell the product, if social media is social to be engaged with and to share and to comment and to like save, then we've got to create moments like that where they associate it with the brand and they [00:31:00] follow and they engage.

So they'll see the models, but they're also enjoying the content you're putting out there.

Hala Taha: Yeah, and then they're basically raising their hand and saying, "Hey, you can DM me," and, you know, it will be receptive 'cause it's like, "Hey, I noticed you engaged on this content. Here's my link to XYZ product or, or whatever."

So it shows some sort of connection to it.

Jaqueline Snyder: And I think just to add in, one thing that people really love is behind the scenes. So any time you can show how it's made, like manufacturing of it, if you're hand doing it, like anything from behind the scenes, they love it. People love to close a loop. They love to watch something happen.

So in a time if you're a small business and it's you as the face, take them along on the journey, 'cause that's why they're following. They're not following to be sold to again.

Hala Taha: Now, what if you think you have a boring product? How can you take them behind the scenes?

Jaqueline Snyder: I mean, I think we think it's boring 'cause we're so in it.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Because people would s- even if it's like making toilet paper, if you go to the factory of how you make the toilet paper- I'd love to see that,

Jaqueline Snyder: yeah ... it's interesting. Yeah. Show me how the paper is compressed. I think, you know, whether you're packing [00:32:00] boxes and showing yourself busy. I've seen reels go viral where somebody's just printing out all their labels, and people watch it.

Um, because like you asked me what wholesale was, people who aren't in product, they don't even realize, oh, those labels have to be printed- Mm-hmm ... and there's a machine for that.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: So I just think that there's so many different ideas. I've had people do packing boxes like, "Oh, this client ordered this and this," and they put it in.

TikTok did so well, I got so sucked into this a few years back, where it was interactive, 'cause live selling is doing really well too right now. And, um, I was watching these women with like crystal shops that had these huge vats of crystals, and then you would actually like comment. It was very live, and you're like, you comment, "I want a five-pound bag."

And then they'd be like, "Oh, hey, Jacqueline." And they'd be scooping up the crystals and be like, "You got this one and this one." Wow. And it was interactive. And so you just really have to think like we've got moments, how do we engage with them and keep them on the channel and keep it fun?

Hala Taha: Yeah. What do you think about platforms like Whatnot?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So it is- Not aligned probably most likely right now in its current state for people with brands. Mm-hmm. It's [00:33:00] a lot of people doing off-price things or discovering, you know, here's a Louis Vuitton wallet and, or cheap, cheap, cheap stuff. Okay. The struggle that my clients have had is that they want it to be so cheap, like it starts at a dollar.

So Whatnot like has this way, if you haven't been on it yet, it's live selling, and then it has this way of, "Oh, here's this vase again," and it's like starting at a dollar, and then it's like you keep putting ... It's like a auction.

Hala Taha: Got it. So it's good for like if you're like trying to get rid of like your designer bags or something

Jaqueline Snyder: like

Hala Taha: that.

Yeah. Okay.

Jaqueline Snyder: It's just not yet built for a brand. I'm sure some companies, people might message me and be like, "No, I'm doing it." Great.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: Ki- this started actually, is I used to work with one of the top 10, like, top 10 sellers of, um, LuLaRoe. Did you ever know that brand?

Hala Taha: Um-

Jaqueline Snyder: So it's like-

Hala Taha: It kind of sounds familiar

Jaqueline Snyder: it was like an MLM direct sales. Okay. Th- there was a whole documentary on it. And I used to work with these people that were making a million dollars a month from their, their barn, selling on-camera in this kind of auction style. And so these direct sellers, um, were doing this behind the scenes. They were [00:34:00] making a million dollars in apparel sales from a barn, and it also had, like, a downline and all this.

And so live selling works, especially if they're in... It goes back to the home goods situation, where it's in discovery. So LuLaRoe worked really well because it was like, "I have one lipstick legging in this size," and people are like, "I want it." Yeah. "And I've got this one T-shirt." And I think that works better than-

Hala Taha: Hmm.

That makes a lot of

Jaqueline Snyder: sense ... "I have a whole inventory of this one bag."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. So is TikTok Shop better than for li- Like, what is good for live selling for brands, or is there not yet a platform you think is good for that?

Jaqueline Snyder: If you- I, this is what I tell people about social media. If you're gonna do social media, get good at it.

Stop half, like, doing it and being like, "Why doesn't it work for me?" It's like if you wanna do TikTok, I work with one of the top, top, top TikTok shops. Um, TikTok flies her around, and, like, to s- present on different things, and she's really good at it. So yes, TikTok Shop works, and it's up to certain price points.

There are... It is a cheaper price point to sell on there. Um, so yeah, it's a great platform. I think Instagram never really fully caught up with it. Yeah. But TikTok's [00:35:00] there, and if you're going to learn it and do it, great. Let's go. Yeah. I mean, I interviewed

Hala Taha: Gary Vee, like, a month ago, and he's, like, all- He's like, "Get into live selling."

If there's one piece of advice for young entrepreneurs, it was live selling for him. Yeah, he's- He really believes in it.

Jaqueline Snyder: I think he's always been super behind that. Yeah. And I, I agree to a point, and then we just have the, you need the customer to catch up with it.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: So it's like where are you capturing their- I'm not gonna argue with Gary Vee.

He's Gary Vee, right? Yeah,

Hala Taha: of course.

Jaqueline Snyder: But yeah. But, like, it, like, is your customer watching it? And QVC and HSN just, like, filed for bankruptcy, actually, and I was just talking to one of their top, top, top sellers. And, um, I think she might have actually been on this podcast. But I was talking to her about it, and she's a- Forbes

Hala Taha: Riley

Jaqueline Snyder: Yes.

I was just talking to her- Yeah ... like two nights ago. And, um, we were talking about it, and it's like she's so good at selling, she can sell anything. Yeah. And I, I had, like, this secret dream that one day I would be a QVC seller. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I love selling and I love interacting. Well now

Hala Taha: you can just do it on-

Jaqueline Snyder: I

Hala Taha: know

TikTok

Jaqueline Snyder: Shop. I can do it myself. Yeah. Exactly. So, so I think yes, and, you know, I think where QVC and HSN kind of- You know, the, they didn't move where the customer was. [00:36:00] If they moved to TikTok Shops, if they moved to, like, where the customer was, 'cause who watches TV at midnight anymore, right? And so it's just really knowing where your customer is and matching them.

I can't wait until

Hala Taha: one day I have the time to open up some sort of live selling. I feel like I'll be so good at it. Uh, Whatnot is actually one of my new sponsors, so I'm like- Amazing ... I think I'm gonna do, like, a, 'cause I've got lots of, like, designer bags. Mm-hmm. And you just gave me a great idea, that I can basically just, like, sell a lot of my designer stuff in my closet.

Yeah. Uh, and to your point, it's like that home goods model, where it's like, this is, like, size 5.5 shoes, ladies. Like, anybody who's that size, like, you know, come watch my live show.

Jaqueline Snyder: 100%. I think, um- When you have an audience especially, I mean, there are people growing on there without it, and, and you're an early adopter, you can get in really fast.

But when you have an audience, for sure. I think, um, Joy Cho, she's amazing. She's always had this, like, design brand. She would have closet sales, and people in LA would, like, come, and she'd have all of her stuff out, and people would come buy from her, and I thought that was so cool. So she probably is someone who's, like, could [00:37:00] also do it-

Hala Taha: Mm

Jaqueline Snyder: and create it. I mean, Whatnot's amazing. It just hasn't yet worked yet for my clients, I think.

Hala Taha: Yeah. I think it's really cool. Yeah. And it's such a new, it's such a new thing- Yeah ... so I feel like it'll just, like,

Jaqueline Snyder: keep evolving. I wish it would take off for us though-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Jaqueline Snyder: because it would be amazing.

Hala Taha: Yeah, great

Jaqueline Snyder: platform.

Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Okay. So how about, like, what kind of content we should create? Sometimes it's not really about being, like, overly edited or overly fancy. Like, what has actually worked for you?

Jaqueline Snyder: You know, it's actually funny because I actually will put a stake in the sand and say you don't need social media. So I actually do push back sometimes on social because there's so many brands.

I had a client with a $25 million company that d- she's joined my program for social. I was like, "Girl, you got a $25 million company. You don't need this, right?"

Hala Taha: Mm.

Jaqueline Snyder: Um, but if you're going to participate in social, you've got to know the platform you're on, who's watching, what the customers are wanting.

TikTok and Instagram, like, I work with one of the top TikTok shops, her Instagram is smaller than her TikTok because it kind of converts in a different way. Um, they love to see loops closed, so if you're using the product, if you're dressing [00:38:00] somebody with the product, um, how can they experience it, or how do you associate another feeling to it?

So Nike with Air, like, if you've ever watched the movie Air, it was really about how, uh, Nike got into the basketball game, Michael Jordan when he was young, and sponsored him. And so it was like, how did Nike get into the athletic shoe? They found, really, an influencer back then and then started having the top, top, top basketball player wearing the product, which validated it.

People wanted it. They thought if they wore it, they could be like him. And then it eventually trickled out into streetwear and what it means, 'cause Nike really wants to be presented as it's high performing for an athlete, but anyone could wear it. So I think this is something that we would work on, you know, within your brand and figuring out what it is.

If, if it's cosmetics, is it before and after? Is it people using, um, lash stuff? You know, Kylie Jenner, when she launched hers, it was she had her lips, and she did her lips all the time, and people were obsessed with her lips and how she did them, so it made so much sense to come out with a product and then continue to show how to use it.

So I think it depends on [00:39:00] the product.

Hala Taha: And I know you also do courses. So is there a difference in terms of how you promote courses on social media?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, so courses for me have sort of started to shift away from where we used to be with it, 'cause now I think people just need more support. Like, they... 'Cause I come out of one-on-one consulting.

Yeah. That's what I did for 15 years, and they just are like, "But what about me? What do I need to do?" What I think, though, from... Like, if you're an online educator or a service business- One, it's why are they gonna tr- we're in a trust recession. I'm sure everyone's talking about this trust recession, and I think it'd be with product and with people.

And so it's like, why are they gonna trust you? Like, what about you is attractive to them? Um, what's gonna make them stick around? So there's this idea of the kind of content that they're gonna be like, "Yeah, you get me." And I do really well with quotes. Yeah. Like quotes on product, actually. Okay. Like I'll mock up like a hat that says, you know, things about entrepreneurship, and people love those quote ones because they're like, "Oh, you see me."

And it stops the scroll. Then I think once we get them [00:40:00] into our world, then it's like showing them we know what we're talking about. One thing I actually stole from Hormozi was speaking from stage and then recording myself coaching. Because I've been a coach. I've been... I'm not even a coach. I'm an advisor and a strategist.

Coaching is like a newer thing in the term. I've been a business strategist for 20 years. And so showing me in action, you can't fake that. It can't be an AI carousel of whatever. It's like, this is me in action. So I think the more you can show the differentiator, personality, values, value alignment. Um, like I'm a mom with two kids, so this is what it's like.

Yeah. Plus, this is how I run a multimillion-dollar business.

Hala Taha: Yeah, so you're actually taking clips of you coaching your clients- Mm-hmm ... and you're posting that online.

Jaqueline Snyder: And from stage. So not even Zoom anymore. Like-

Hala Taha: Got it. So like- ...

Jaqueline Snyder: nobody wants to watch a screen with

Hala Taha: a face ... nobody wants to watch a talking head.

No. So you're saying coach, like Q&A on stage.

Jaqueline Snyder: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: That's brilliant.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I love that. I started doing more in-person events- Mm-hmm ... because I do think just, like we talked about with product in the beginning, it's just getting people together, that's [00:41:00] what's sticky. Like- The emotional connections, the real people, the, the, the fact that, like, people become friends and family through all this.

And so yeah, I just did an event a few weeks ago where I was on stage coaching with my mic, and clients were able to ask hot seats, and then it's just the back and forth between it, and it's crushing.

Hala Taha: Yeah. How has the actual offer of your courses changed?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. That's been the last year and change of my business.

Last year, things got really dicey, um, in the first half of the year. It was like, why is nothing working? Part of it, in the beginning of 2025, this is when the whole tariffs conversation came up with products, so product people were already really scared. And then I think coming out of the pandemic, nobody wanted to sit...

Like, it's, like, the last thing we want to do is sit on a screen and watch something and consume it by ourselves in our houses. Um, people want that experience of live. So what I ended up doing was th- thinking about what have I been best, best in the world at? And back in 2007, I started, which was my original company, Designer Consulting Co-op.

That's where I [00:42:00] literally was, like, the designer. I say I was like an architect and a contractor. People come to me with ideas. I'd ideate. I'd make the product. We'd go through the whole process and help them grow the company. This is pre-Product Boss. And so it's like what did they need? They needed human brains.

They needed experts talking about all the different things that they needed. So what I did is I took all my courses and put it into a program called The Collective, which, 'cause I really believe especially as women, as a collective we rise, not by stepping on each other-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Jaqueline Snyder: not by being in competition, but literally, like, together we all get to rise together.

And so and that now has live feedback. Like, you can get asynchronous coaching. There's my education, so you can watch specific learning moments. There's AI. There's live sessions every single week. We've got co-working sessions and live events. Mm-hmm. And so that's really the community that I want to create.

And I ca- It's almost like the third school. So it's not design school. It's not business school. It's for the creative entrepreneur that's like, "Okay, how do I build this thing? And I, when I have a question, I actually can ask [00:43:00] somebody."

Hala Taha: Yeah. And how do you de- deal with like not, like for example, now everybody wants like one-on-one, right?

But you're running so many things. Like, it can't possibly be you on every single meeting, every single Zoom call. What do you do to kind of scale yourself when people probably wanna talk to you?

Jaqueline Snyder: Oh, 100%. Um, and they can, but just, you know, it's I can take less of those people, and it's a much higher investment.

So that's what I did in the collective. I built a board of advisors, and I'm continuously, like, building to it. So I have advisors that are experts at, you know, social media or Pinterest or SEO, um, paid ads, leadership and personal development. You know, so AI team. So I've actually built in a board of advisors where I believe that clients can come, and then they can get the advice that they need.

So I'm like, we- we're paying for the experts that you need in your company. Um, and so in this program, we do have this... 'Cause I need to figure out how do you scale one-on-one. Yeah. Right? And so we created this way with our advisors. There's a team of them that my [00:44:00] clients can submit a question for feedback every single week.

They don't need all the questions. If they're working on their website, then we've gotta, like, get feedback on the homepage and then adjust that. Mm-hmm. So that's how they are getting this, like, asynchronous, and then I have advisors that pick up the question and might send a video back, a voice note, um, an email, something that helps move them through the process.

So I think that's the way I've been able to scale it. I do have a mastermind that has... My advisors are also in that. Hmm. So they do get access to me, but I've, I'm starting to outsource. I know a lot about a lot of things. I've been doing this for a really long time, but I don't have to know everything anymore.

Like, I get to really step, be in leadership, and now just hire really amazing, incredible advisors that can do better than I can 'cause they're experts at what they do.

Hala Taha: And so do you hire them full time?

Jaqueline Snyder: No. No, a lot of them are running their own companies. I have some that are clients of mine that wanna come back in and advise.

There's people with agencies. So right now it's really, at this level, it's not yet.

Hala Taha: Is it like a rev share? Like, how are you compensating them?

Jaqueline Snyder: Um, they get paid per [00:45:00] thing that they do, so depending on if it's, like, feedback or there's a flat fee per, per month. Like, it depends on what they're doing. If they're answering questions in the community is different than if they're taking on personal things.

Some of them d- actually, I have two higher levels where those clients get one-on-one calls once a month.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: And so they're, it's more of an investment for the client, but then I'm paying the expert for their hour.

Hala Taha: Yeah. I've personally seen, like, how all this course stuff has changed, and I feel like AI has completely just transformed the way that you have to sell courses.

'Cause to your point, people want live- Mm-hmm ... people want accountability. They want something that AI can't do for them, right? So I actually had, like, a LinkedIn course, and now we just, just launched on School. Have you heard of School, Alex, from Mossy's platform?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, I am, I have- Yeah,

Hala Taha: but you've

Jaqueline Snyder: got something on School too?

I have submitted for the... Not yet, 'cause I was like, I think I might be doing too many things. I had submitted to be a part of his, like, creator program. Yeah,

Hala Taha: that's what I'm in, right? Yeah. So we're in there. We can talk about that offline. Yeah. Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: I'm

Hala Taha: happy to get you in it. Great. Um, so that's what I'm in.

I'm doing, like, my big launch actually, like, I think, like, two [00:46:00] days I'm doing a webinar, and I'm pushing people to School, and we're gonna have, like, accountability sessions where it's like I give them prompts for the week, and we work together in a session, and I'm gonna have other LinkedIn influencers help me because I can't certainly do, like, to have that much, uh, meetings and stuff is just not possible with my schedule.

So it's like I need to have other people, people on my team, 'cause I have an agency. So I, I was asking you all those questions 'cause it's like I'm actively trying to work through, like, how do I, like, you know, provide value but not necessarily have to be the one that shows up every single day.

Jaqueline Snyder: And I think, I think that's also the big shift.

It's like, it, and I'm not planning on selling my company- Yeah ... but I think the idea of when you're the face of your brand, is it, you know, a lifestyle brand? Is it something to sell? And what I really believe in, and my core tenet goes back to my mom, and she was a creative, but she really fully believed she didn't know enough about business, and she was a mom, and she was an artist and designer.

And eve- she even at one point went back to art school, but then just didn't believe in herself enough. And [00:47:00] I went to design school. I have a bachelor's in fine arts. It was one of the top three schools in the country for fashion. They gave us a quarter of entrepreneurship, 'cause they were training us to go work for other people.

So I think what we miss a lot of times is, like, how do we help creatives build thriving companies, especially when we're creating physical products? And there are tons of people out there that teach, like, kind of, you know, if you wanna source this product and get the million-dollar, you know, whatever launch.

And for me, I really align it with people's lifestyles and what do they want? And especially when it comes to women and they're holding so many different things.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: And so I think that thinking about scaling this company, it's great that we have access to all these advisors. What I wanna say is if people, if more information was the thing, we'd all be gajil- Yeah

gajillionaires, right? Podcasts, YouTube, AI, like the bla- We've got plenty

Hala Taha: of info,

Jaqueline Snyder: yeah. Yeah, we all have so much information, so it's like what applies to you, when do you implement it, and in what order?

Hala Taha: So I wanna play a game with you- Fun ... before we go, um, called Fix My Product Business. So I'm gonna give you a scenario, and then [00:48:00] you'll tell me how would you fix this business, what would you do, what would be, like, your next steps.

Sound good?

Jaqueline Snyder: I love this. Let's

Hala Taha: go. Okay. So scenario one, the candle business making sales but no money. A woman owns a candle business doing $500,000 a year. Her best-selling candles sell for $40, but after materials, packaging, shipping, advertising, she only keeps $3 per order. She's thinking about launching five new scents to drive more sales.

How would you fix this business, Jacqueline?

Jaqueline Snyder: $3 is insane.

Hala Taha: You're like, "Shut it down." "Shut it down."

Jaqueline Snyder: Like- We gotta raise your prices or find better materials. So-

Hala Taha: Take it behind the barn.

Jaqueline Snyder: If she's only making $3, like, so the, the fix it for me would be like, let's fix why you're only taking home that margin. And so it might be that costs are too high.

It might be that the labor is ... You know. So we'd, we would look at the tinkering behind the scenes, because to me, that's a back-end problem. Um, I'd look at the cost of goods. I'd look at the labor. I'd try and really understand the numbers to know why are you [00:49:00] only taking home three. Because at a $50 product, you know, it's wholesales at 25, let's say, then again, 11 bucks should be What she's selling it for, so there's gotta be more margin there.

So there's something broken in the margin that we can dig into first.

Hala Taha: In terms of somebody looking at a product, like, what, as like a, a leader of your company, like, what numbers should you absolutely know, like, on the top of your head?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So one, cost of goods, like, what it costs you to make each individual unit.

Um, average order value. That's a huge thing I ask my clients, like, "What's your average order value?" And that's like the easiest tweak sometimes we can make and make so much more money in the company- Yep ... by just raising that up a bit. Yeah, so average order value. I would say lifetime value or how often the customer comes back, so the repeatability of the customer, and cost of goods, your wholesale price and your retail price.

Hala Taha: Something that I didn't get to ask you before that you just reminded me of is you had mentioned, like, your bestseller you always recommend, I think you, like, increase the price by like 15% or something like that. Why, why do you think that that's a good thing to [00:50:00] do off the bat?

Jaqueline Snyder: So I had a client do breadboards.

Like, she had these, like, custom engraved breadboards, and she could not stop selling them. Um, and she's like, "They just keep buying them." And so I'm like, "Then raise your price and see if it'll slow down the amount of inventory that goes out." And so she raised her price, and it kept selling, and so she raised her price again.

And a lot of people will use that methodology to, like, raise the price because they want to slow down sales. And listen, if you're selling and you're making more per unit, amazing. So it's not always 15% more per product, but again, you look at what the market will bear, and if they love it and they want it, they're going to buy it.

We just have to make sure... There's a psychological thing to pricing as well.

Hala Taha: And how do you raise your prices without pissing off your customers? You

Jaqueline Snyder: don't tell them.

Hala Taha: You just do it.

Jaqueline Snyder: You have to do it. Ugh.

Hala Taha: So you don't, like, tweak something or, like, make it seem like something changed, changes the branding?

You don't, you just change it.

Jaqueline Snyder: You know, I'm wearing bangles from a client of mine that they're, they're gold bangles. And when gold went up, 'cause gold keeps going up, and silver. So gold and silver keep going up in price, and if you tell them, "We're raising the price 'cause gold has gone up," [00:51:00] when the price comes down, they're gonna be like, "Price is down, or you're dropping your prices again."

Hmm. And they don't understand the cost of doing business. If you're selling wholesale to retailers, you may give them a warning. "This is, our prices are going up in 2027," or, you know, whatever the next year is. "We're raising our prices around this season. This is our last time to get it. Get your orders in, 'cause we're, again, we're in partnership."

If you tell your customers, I mean, people will tear you down for anything. They don't, most of the time they don't notice, and this is the biggest fear jump that I see my clients do. I just got a message from a client. She was at a market a couple weeks ago, and she's like, "Jacqueline, I raised my prices. I was freaking out, and nobody blinked an eye."

And I was like, "Yeah." 'Cause they're not paying attention. Now listen, if you go from, like, a $25 product and you raise it to $65- Mm-hmm ... we're moving customers. The, the market is different. Yeah. So we've got to shift it. But if we're going up a few dollars, just raise the prices and deal with each, each individual.

Hala Taha: And I feel like if it's a habit product or, or something that's part of, like, your ritual or routine, that might be harder to change the price [00:52:00] versus something that you buy once or, like, once a year or something, 'cause people won't remember exactly what they paid. Is that right?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, and though, like, think about it.

Like, maybe, like, our face creams or I think about Sephora shelves. Like, I don't know that I would know if I went in and said, "Oh, I spent $34 or $36." Yeah,

Hala Taha: we would

Jaqueline Snyder: not. I don't know that I would actually pay attention. No. Now, if it went from a $30 price point to 48, closer to 50- Mm ... now we've left categories.

So I think it's a yes, and you're gonna have the people who are very aware, but way less than you think.

Hala Taha: Yeah. So it's like you don't... Back to this example, she doesn't need to launch five new scents. She needs to get more profitable and figure out where are the profit leaks. Yeah. Why is it, why does she get nothing at the end of it?

And she can also try to raise her prices.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, if it needs a raise, 100%. And you know, I worked with a client that was a million-dollar jewelry business with a 10% profit margin, wasn't paying herself. I'm like, "W- why? Why do you have a million-dollar headache?" So I was like, "I'd rather you have a half-million-dollar company with a stronger profit margin to pay yourself and all the things."

And so, [00:53:00] um, again, with product, if you expand, why I would say don't do the five scents is because you're just gonna leak money across the board and keep taking... Unless you're selling at volume.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: Fine, $3 at volume is great, but half-a-million-dollar company is still a very small company when you could get to a million dollars just by if she got slightly more profitable, we'd be making the money easy.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Scenario two, the dream retail deal. A skincare founder makes $300,000 a year selling online. A major retailer offers her a $100,000 wholesale order. She'd need to use all of her savings to manufacture the products, and she wouldn't get paid after delivery. Should she take that deal or walk

Jaqueline Snyder: away? Hmm.

I've been on multiple sides of this kind of deal, so it goes into a deeper conversation. I had a client turn down Bloomingdale's once because she's like, "I'd have to mortgage my house." Um, this is why I think leveraging money is so important for product people. Nobody's sitting on tons and tons of cash, so [00:54:00] always having lines of credit.

Um, you know, there's SBA loans, there's credit cards for short-term paying out. Well, when we look at the margins, if she's getting $100,000 order though, what is the margin? What will it do? Will it break the business? I have a client right now that's dealing with a really, really, really big brand, and, um, they're not paying her for 90 days every time she ships.

So she had to actually let go of team because she can't actually afford to run her business because she's making all this product and not getting paid for a long time. So we really got to consider if it's going... If you have the savings, but you're also generating money, then we can have a conversation.

But if it's everything you have- It's, it's not worth it. We just turned down, one of my clients just turned down the Today Show, um, because they wanted her to make 10,000 units of something, and it would've broken the internal part of the business, and they wanted a discount. So if instead of like, "Great, how can we make that same amount of money, not break the business, sell more profitably?"

So I would say if it's gonna break the business, we turn 'em down. If you're like, "I've got the 100,000 saved and I'm generating, so profit's still coming in," I'd [00:55:00] say let's go.

Hala Taha: There's companies out there that will basically like pay for your, in advertising it's called like your IOs. Like for example, if I get, I get sponsorships for people.

So if I'm like I have a million dollars in IOs, but they're paying me in 90 days, there's companies that will pay us. Yes. Is that a thing in the product world?

Jaqueline Snyder: In fashion there's factors. Okay. And so, um, you have to have a certain amount of sales generated, but when I used to do this in fashion, they would front us the money.

So they'd get the purchase orders from the retailers, they'd front us the money to go into production. 'Cause a lot of times you have to go into production before you're gonna get paid. So they'd front us the money, they'd take 5%. Um, and then they'd make sure that the retailer qualified, kind of like a business check.

Yeah. And then so they'd front the money, they'd take 5%, you'd ship on time, it'd all be great. So for sure in fashion there's that, and I think that's why it's really important to work with your bakes- banks, have like the right financing. Um, and depending on the category, you know, or you're working on a deal with your...

If, if you have someone manufacturing for you, you also can extend terms with them. So I can have them manufacture. I have a 90-day term with them. I have 90 [00:56:00] days with like who I'm shipping to, and then the money all kind of comes at the same time.

Hala Taha: Oh, that's really smart. I didn't think about

Jaqueline Snyder: that. Yeah. I just actually talked to someone who was working for like a billion-dollar brand.

She was on my podcast, and she was saying even internally on a billion-dollar brand they would try and get the payments they had to make, like because this cash flow thing is always an issue, they would try and push out the payments as far as they could. Can we get that for like after this month, after whatever?

Mm-hmm. Because they needed the cash in the bank before they had to pay out. So we're always just kind of in this game of moving money around.

Hala Taha: Yeah. How about taking investor money- Mm-hmm ... to front some sort of deal like this?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I'm actually an investor in a fully female-funded, um, brand, and I think, I think there's a difference between if you wanna do invest- if you want investor money and how you're gonna set up your business for it.

Um, or there's things like Kickstarter. Like I've had, like I have a client that was on Shark Tank that really went from Etsy to where we got them to a million dollars in their first year by doing a Kickstarter campaign. So there, it, I think it depends on if you, [00:57:00] what kind of business you wanna have. Do you wanna, do you self-funding?

Do you wanna ask friends and family for a raise? Or do you really wanna grow this into something where you're taking on capital?

Hala Taha: Okay, next scenario. The skincare brand nobody buys twice, which I'm glad we're doing this- Yeah ... 'cause we didn't get to this. A skincare business generates half a million dollars a year.

Customers love the product, but only 15% come back for a second purchase. The founder wants to double her advertising budget to acquire more customers. Jacqueline, how would you get these customers instead?

Jaqueline Snyder: Like immediately no, we're not doubling.

Hala Taha: No. '

Jaqueline Snyder: Cause there's something broken. Um, so w- you know, the thing about skincare is it's a consumable.

And so the question would be if I looked at it would be are they using it? Um, are they moving through the product? Is it too big of a product, right? Like sometimes people are just trying to sell like bulk stuff, and it takes a whole year to go through something- Mm ... versus something that's smaller and they use it.

So I'd first probably identify why are they not coming back. Is it not having the effects that they want? Is it having some sort of [00:58:00] adverse reaction? We'd probably know that data from, from returns and customer service emails. So more ads to singular product, especially consumable. I work with clients that have stuff that maybe people would only buy a couple of.

But a consumable, there's something wrong in the result of it, and so we'd really wanna fix what that is or understand it. Um, another thing is people don't always know how to use the product. And so maybe it's this idea of like, again, a skincare regimen or how you use it. Or I, I, there's this one brand I follow, and they're like results after second month, and then they say the skincare is monthly amounts.

So, so basically it's like this is a 30-day supply. And so they sell you three at a time 'cause they're like, "Results are after the second month, and the best deal is getting all three." Mm-hmm. So now they've sold three to them.

Hala Taha: That's really smart.

Jaqueline Snyder: But they may not get that customer back for, you know-

Hala Taha: Three months

Jaqueline Snyder: three months, three to five months, depending.

Hala Taha: Yeah. But at least they sold three, 'cause-

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah ...

Hala Taha: not guaranteed to, to

Jaqueline Snyder: sell three Which is raising their

Hala Taha: average

Jaqueline Snyder: order value.

Hala Taha: You actually talk about four repeat purchase triggers. [00:59:00] Replenishment, ritual, gifting, and upgrade.

Jaqueline Snyder: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Do you wanna tell us about any of those?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, so replenishing for sure. I think what we're saying here too, and that's something I would fix on that skincare brand, would be like are we reminding them to come back and buy? They're just as busy. They might be sitting with that jar empty on their counter being like, "I have to order it," but they haven't had the ability to do it.

Hala Taha: Yep. So you- 1-800-CONTACTS does that so well. So well. I, I, I order contacts, and they're always like, "Are you run..." I'm like, "Yeah, I, I am running out of contacts." Like- They'll

Jaqueline Snyder: text message and say like- Yeah ... "Your, your, uh, prescription's about to expire." Yep. "You should get it in." Mm-hmm. Same. I'm, I buy from them too.

So exactly that. It's like that reminder where you know you need it, but you just need someone to encourage you to it. So I would say that's the re- re- the replenishment. The other things is just this idea of, of giftable. You know, if they bought for themselves, how do they then Think about it for somebody else.

So you just always have to have your marketing mind on and thinking about, like, "How do I just remind them that this stuff exists, and then how do I make it make sense to them in this moment to buy from me again?"

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. And in terms of gifting, since [01:00:00] it's Q4- Sure

Jaqueline Snyder: is ...

Hala Taha: and a lot of people are scrambling right now or trying to think of, like, what can they do to drive sales for Q4, what would you say?

Jaqueline Snyder: I- I've just done, like, this is, like, this is our season. This is, like, Super Bowl season. People have their wallets out. They're gonna buy. It's such a good season because if we think about fall, it's a transition of flavors. It's a transition of how we decorate our homes. It's a d- it's a transition of what we wear.

The weather changes. We've got holidays to plan for, gifts to have. Um, so many things are happening more than just gifting. I recommend that people participate in Black Friday or some version of that. I hear a lot of times people saying, "Well, if I do that, I'll train my customers to expect discounts."

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: They're not gonna buy from you that weekend if you're full price. So if you wanna participate in it, let's go. If you don't, then you get to opt out. And I have clients that have chosen their sale dates at other times. We just got done with the beginning of October, Target and Amazon did their holiday, like, Prime earlier.

Even earlier, like in the beginning of October, because we're also all competing for dollars. So if you could [01:01:00] create opportunities to buy- Mm ... a discount, um, or promotions, so it's like, um, gifts under 50, gifts under 100, gifts for her, gifts for him, gifts for your dog. Um, because it doesn't always have to be the discount, but it has to be something good and special in this moment for it to make sense for them to buy.

Hala Taha: Uh, what's your, like, thoughts around discounts? Like, do you... I know you just sort of mentioned that- Yeah ... that sometimes you train the customer. I'll give an example. Uh, Alice + Olivia, very expensive clothing brand. Mm-hmm. I love them, and when I first started shopping there, I bought everything full price.

And then, you know, I realized that they every season they have, like, a massive sale, and I'm like, "Oh, God," like, I just, like, wasted all... All the stuff that I bought is half price now, and it really pissed me off. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Well, I'm not, never doing that again."

Jaqueline Snyder: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: So talk to us about, like, when is it the right time or the wrong time, or the right product or the wrong product to discount?

Jaqueline Snyder: The suit I'm wearing actually was full price, but then, like, went on sale like a week later, and this company was like, [01:02:00] "We don't, we don't price match our own sales." I was like, "Well, that sucks." So agreed with you on that one. Um, there's a couple things. With product and e-com, there's usually that, have you ever opted in, there's like the opt-in, give us your email address and you'll get 15%- Yeah

off your first order. So that's this idea of, like, giving them a little, like, you dangle a carrot for them to buy, and 10 to 15 percent's not significant. There's play on, like, whether these are working or not. Um, it's kind of like when you go to Costco and they have the samples around. It's like, I'm gonna try the thing before I have it.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: Bigger brands like Alice + Olivia and things like that, they do have to go on sale because they have to liquidate inventory. We want to turn your inventory back into cash. Black Friday is named Black Friday because it was getting companies back in the black. They were in the red, and it was turning towards the end of the year, and they needed to turn their money back.

Fun

Hala Taha: fact.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I never knew that. Yeah. Yeah,

Hala Taha: no.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, so it's like they had to get back in the black, and that's why they would turn product back into cash. Would just... 'Cause otherwise your inventory is money on the shelves, and what's, it's no use to us.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: So that's the origination of Black Friday, turning it back into cash.

So it's the same thing with product. [01:03:00] We have seasons that we run it, and then if it's a seasonal product, and I teach this to my clients, where- Halloween, we're gonna put stuff on Halloween sale after Halloween or even leading up close to it when you're trying to move that or early Halloween sale. So I saw Halloween in the stores in like July.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: And it... Right? And so- It's ridiculous ... they put it on sale, you're like, "Oh, I'll buy now," 'cause they, they made a certain amount of inventory and they wanna move through the inventory and turn it back into cash. Um, so there's always gonna be seasonal, especially with fashion in particular to move it out, unless you're a luxury good.

We're never gonna get sales at Louis Vuitton, right? Like that's not gonna happen. So certain designer brands will not do that, but then things that have to move inventory. I think that don't be afraid of sales, but don't use it to generate sales. Mm. And if we think about the clothes that you bought, it's, it was seasonal so you're okay.

And especially 'cause we both live in warm weather environments, like we can probably wear summer stuff longer- Yeah ... in the year. You also can train your clients or your customers into scarcity. So it's sold out, get it before it's [01:04:00] gone. Yeah. Like, you make a certain amount of quantity, so then if they do wait, they just may never get their size once it does go on sale.

Hala Taha: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

Jaqueline Snyder: So I think it's like a, it's, the whole point of sales and promotions is not to s- drive sales, unless you're kicking off an early season, it's to move product to turn it back into cash.

Hala Taha: Same thing also, just to like bring it up, same thing can happen with shipping, like if you offer free shipping.

Yeah. It's pretty similar to discounts. It could train people that, that they always want free shipping. Is that right?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. I, really truthfully, we don't wanna pay for shipping.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: Ultimately, humans don't, humans, people, customers- Yeah ... like no human. Um- Amazon trained us. That's- Yeah. And, you know, I've even added stuff to cart.

So what I tr- what I train people in is like how you raise your average order value is put a free shipping threshold that's slightly higher. So if your average order value is $50, can we make your free shipping $75? So they add one thing to cart extra. So

Hala Taha: smart.

Jaqueline Snyder: They'd rather get the thing that they didn't know that they wanted or needed than pay for shipping, and then that automatically just raises everything.

Hala Taha: All right. This is the perfect scenario to go to our last [01:05:00] segment of the show. So business coach makes a million dollars annually selling online courses, but most of her revenue comes from two exhausting live launches. She works 70 hours a week. She personally runs every webinar and feels like she just can't even take a vacation.

How would you redesign her business so she could generate more profit while working less?

Jaqueline Snyder: Sounds like me in 2024. Yep.

Hala Taha: That's what we're gonna get

Jaqueline Snyder: into. So we used to launch with challenges, which were five-day challenges. We'd have like 15,000 people in it, a lot of community in a short amount of time to hold, and then to do these challenges, like the whole lead up and all that.

So funny enough, I actually do run webinars, and I run weekly webinars, but I, like, I love selling. Like, I go back to QVC. I love teaching. I love talking to people. I love selling. Um, because selling is just matching.

Hala Taha: So it gives you energy. Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: Like, you like it. I'm an extrovert. Yeah. I'm like, take me to New York City.

Me too. I love launches. I'm so filled up. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, let's go do podcasts after, you know? Um, [01:06:00] so I think it's looking at what the systems are and, like, the two launches in this world, it feels very hard now to be super reliant on two launches. There are some stories of people right now doing it.

They're newer to the industry. They're doing these launches. It's new, new to the product. I think that it's consistency. We did just switch to an evergreen. We took the thing that worked. I did- I've done webinars every week, and we did the thing that worked, and we ran- started to run it evergreen daily because people are gonna opt in more often.

There's a- Tell

Hala Taha: me what that means, like- Okay ... for the people who are, like, don't know the... So basically, like, when you say you run it evergreen, is it a prerecorded-

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So- Okay ... I basically do it twice a week live, and then we took my best recording from a few weeks ago and took that on a replay, so it still looks live.

And I actually have my team in there live. Because people, again, are not just watching and being like, "Oh, I'm just watching this recorded thing," and then they're leaving. So we're still making the experience live. Because there's people in the chat. There's people in the chat, and my team... I was in the chat this whole weekend.

I was like, "I'm gonna be in here and, like, chat with people and see how it goes." 'Cause we take people to sales calls now. [01:07:00] We're no longer, um, click a link and buy a product 'cause the collective is a higher ticket program, and it requires a higher ticket or a higher touch, right, for that ticket. Here's actually what I would say.

Take the thing that works and repeat it, which is the best seller. What works? How do you repeat it, and how do you make it easier to do? Um, I'm going back to live. I'm going back to my live webinars. I feel like there's just a few things that we still wanna work on, and then I'll, I'll get it to evergreen.

But if I get it to evergreen, then there's still more that I'm going to do live That's really specific to what's needed. So maybe it's content, maybe it's doing more podcasts and speaking on stages. So I think what I would say is you wanna find out what works and then repeat it versus the two launches.

Um, I also don't know why if you're doing two launches why you're working 70 hours a week. So it's really identifying, like, what it is that you're working on, and then do you have the right team to support you in it, or are you just doing too much?

Hala Taha: So speaking of that, you have, like, three phases of leadership essentially, and a lot of the people tuning in are CEOs, we are entrepreneurs, we're building [01:08:00] companies.

Uh, take us through, like, the doer.

Jaqueline Snyder: I think a lot of us are doer, and, like, you could be a multimillion-dollar business and still be the doer of a lot of things. Um, and so the doer is a person kind of either has, like, such a tight grip and, like, no one else can do it the way I do it and it's gotta be my way or no way.

Um, or they're just someone who in their mind thinks, "If I just do it all, I'll save money and be more profitable." But at some point you become your own bottleneck, and you can't expand past that. This happens for product people, especially my makers, where I'm like, "We wanna get to a million-dollar business."

They're like, "I could not possibly make a million candles," let's say.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: Like, well, you wouldn't be the one making the candles at that size business. But they can't get over it yet. Um, so the doer is the person who's still in it all or answering emails on weekends when you have a team member that can do it or micromanaging, or you're just still a solopreneur.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: And there might be things you could start to release. And I say you can either ... You could... Some of these things you just stop doing. Just stop. I actually stopped Instagram for a hot sec. When we were recalibrating, when I was a burnt [01:09:00] out 70-hour-a-week person, I was like, "Social in this moment is not driving my business forward.

I can not feel so... Like, I don't have to do it as much 'cause what is actually driving my business?" Yeah. And I refocused. Then we get to owner, which is really ownership. Who's in ownership of outcomes in the company? This is where we start to professionalize and hire people that are experts at something, um, experts at ads, experts at marketing your emails, your podcast production, whatever it is, um, because there's KPIs, which are key performance indicators that are attached to that, and that they're holding it like I did with my board of advisors.

They're better at it than I am. Yeah. Like, they're the Amazon expert. Go to the Amazon expert. So who's in ownership? And then for me too, or you as the owner, what are you in ownership of? So for me at The Product Boss, I'm in ownership of right now still curriculum, um, and what they're taught, and front-facing.

So speaking opportunities, podcasting, everything that's like getting the brand out there, that's what I'm in ownership of. Those are my KPIs. [01:10:00] And then boss, I say boss 'cause we're The Product Boss, but ultimately it's CEO. Um, and boss is where the c- you allow the company to run without you. Mm-hmm. And I do this thing where I'm like, "If I said you could go on vacation, no laptop, no phone for two weeks, would your company thrive?

You know, survive or collapse?" And it's like mine thrives. Yeah, me too. My team is like, "Bye."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. "

Jaqueline Snyder: Go, go. Go back to Costa Rica." You know? "We've got it." And, um, and so it's this idea of like having systems built into the company, having repeatable things, having team members that are in ownership, and knowing what I'm good at and what I don't need to be doing.

Hala Taha: Yeah. I love that, and I feel the same with my business. Like I feel like I've really done a good job of hiring incredible people where like I can just work on the business and not necessarily in the business. But to your point, there's certain things that I'm still in that owner box that I am still like it's maybe newer parts of the business- Mm-hmm

or something new that I launched that I'm like more involved in, right? Yeah. So but then you- the goal is to get really [01:11:00] good people to then run it without you once you've got it off the ground.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, and I think we get to be dangerous at everything. Like as entrepreneurs, we've gotta know a little bit about a lot of things.

And so, yeah, if I try something new, I try it, and then I can teach the system, make it repeatable- Mm-hmm ... and then hire someone or hire someone that's better than me. I just hired an operator who worked for 10 years at this massive company, and I'm like, "Take it." Yeah.

Hala Taha: So

Jaqueline Snyder: you

Hala Taha: know- Like, "Take me

Jaqueline Snyder: to the

Hala Taha: next level."

You know, you know more than me. Yeah. Yeah. So you actually had this goal, I guess it was in 2024, where you were like, "I want 30% more profit with 30% less personal involvement." What was the biggest change that you made? Like what did you actually do?

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah. So that was actually the year, um... It was actually last year.

It was '25, and it was when my mom passed away, 'cause my mom battled cancer for five years. Sorry. Thanks. And, um, and so it was crazy is I had said that as my goal. I wanted 30% less doing of things and 30% more profit, and then I literally was halted. Like I remember sitting in the hospital being like, "Everything has to change."

And what a blessing it was too, and this idea that I, I, I ca- not that I called [01:12:00] that in, but like I called in this idea of I actually physically can't work in this moment at my capacity, so what's gonna happen? And that's what I teach in my, in my program. We do these 10-week game changer sprints. Not even quarterly.

I call it game changer. So in 10 weeks we could be really focused on something. Like me, it was 30% more profit, 30% less work. Then my brain and my plan had to be how do I get there? That was my overarching. So that in 10 weeks I could look back and say, "I did it. I did it in 60 days." Mm. Even in grief, where, um, you know, by the end of the...

It was June, then July. I was like, "Oh my God, we hit it. We hit the 30% profit," and I physically- My team sometimes is like, "Do we have to lock you out of stuff?" 'Cause, like, I'll try and, like, get back in, but I physically at that moment couldn't do it, but I was so focused. I was like this is what works. Going back to the bestseller.

This is what works. This is a repeatable process. This is a system. Let's just keep it going, and we did it.

Hala Taha: It reminds me of we were talking about Boss Babe before. Natalie Ellis, uh, I think when she was, like, pregnant, [01:13:00] she basically had to do the same thing. Yeah. Like, she was like, "Well, I'm gonna be pregnant and having a kid, so I gotta get out of the business," and-

And

Jaqueline Snyder: she's so prepared.

Yeah. So she's, like, prepping all the way before it.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Jaqueline Snyder: But I think that's ... And that's what Natalie's so good at too, is, like, rhythms and systems built in the business, and how do you get your business to function in a rhythm. And so she was the master of that, and then was able to take that time off.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Well, Jacqueline, what an incredible interview. Like, we went through so much. I feel like all of my young Profiterers learned so much from you. So I end my show with two questions I ask all of my guests. For all the listeners tuning in, what is one actionable thing they can do today to be more profitable tomorrow?

Jaqueline Snyder: Hmm. Look at your numbers. Um, my life coach says, "Math, not drama." Hmm. So let's take the drama out of it and the emotion out of it, and look at your numbers and ask yourself, I would say, like, your costs versus what you're selling for. Profitable. Where are the money leaks? And that would be the first thing.

Don't avoid it.

Hala Taha: Yeah. You, you definitely inspired me, where I was like, "I need to call my business partner and be like, 'Ev- we need to know every profit margin of every single thing that we sell.'"

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah.

Hala Taha: And we've, we've [01:14:00] done that before, but it's like sometimes you need to do it. Like, you haven't done it in a year or two, right?

And new things have happened, so it's like, let's reevaluate what is our most profitable product.

Jaqueline Snyder: Yeah, let's go to the data.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Jaqueline Snyder: And then data will tell us what to do next.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And what is your secret to profiting in life?

Jaqueline Snyder: I know that money is a replenishable resource. It will always come in, it will always go out.

It's like the ocean, right? High tide, low tide. Time is not replenishable. So what I had learned years ago from one of my first coaches was pay for all the help that you can afford, and that's what I do now. And so I'm able to profit at life because I'm able to actually, like, have the time-

Hala Taha: Hmm ...

Jaqueline Snyder: and pay, pay for that so that I can be with the people I love, 'cause life is short and that's what we're here for.

Hala Taha: I love that. Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

Jaqueline Snyder: Thanks. So anywhere you listen to podcasts, it's The Product Boss, so just click on over and subscribe, or on YouTube, it's The Product Boss Podcast, on Instagram, theproductboss. And then if you ever wanna attend one of those workshops that I do, and [01:15:00] it'll most likely be live at this point, or maybe it'll be evergreen and you can ask in the chat, um, it's theproductbossworkshops.com.

Hala Taha: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting podcast.

Jaqueline Snyder: Thank you.

Hala Taha: Young and Profiters, I love a good HomeGoods run. There's nothing like spotting the perfect vase and knowing that if I don't grab it right now, it might be gone forever. But after talking to Jaclyn, I realized that feeling isn't an accident.

In the age of AI, most shopping still happens in person because people love to discover, and that brings me to the main concept from today's conversation, Jaclyn's five systems for building profitable product businesses. I wanna quickly break them down for you guys because whether you sell candles or coaching, there's something here for everyone.

First, we have the bestseller. Most of your revenue comes from just one or two products, so stop chasing every new idea and double down on what your customers already love and buy. Don't just get so comfortable that you stop evolving, though, like Lululemon did when Alo kept up with the trends, but they didn't.

Then we've [01:16:00] got pricing. A good starting point is to at least double your cost of goods to get to your wholesale price, and then you can double that for retail. And make sure you're counting your labor. Charging more often doesn't scare off the right customer, so don't be afraid to do that because it can often attract better ones.

Next is OPA, or other people's audiences. The worst thing a brand can do is pay for ads to a broken funnel, so go where the traffic already lives, like marketplaces, retailers, pop-ups, and partnerships. You've gotta move to where your customers actually are hanging out. Then there's marketing. We're in a trust recession, so show people who you are and how your product is made.

Go behind the scenes. You can't fake that. And finally, there's the owner, and this is the one I think is especially important for all my listeners. So many founders are running million-dollar businesses and still acting like the doer, holding on to every single task because nobody else can do it right.

At some point, you become the bottleneck. Find what works and repeat it. Build systems, and give your team real [01:17:00] ownership of the outcomes. So yeah, fam, here's my challenge to you today. With Q4 here, look at your own business. Do you know your cost of goods and how often your customers come back? Are you reminding your customers to replenish?

Is your free shipping set just above your average order value? And what is one task you're holding onto that somebody else could own? Because the key to living a profitable life isn't doing more. It's building a business that pays you and gives you the freedom that you deserve. As Jaclyn put it, aim for 30% more profit with 30% less involvement, and pay for all the help you can afford so you can profit at life.

And, Yap fam, if you wanna take this even further, check out the Product Boss podcast. Jaclyn goes even deeper on pricing, marketing, and scaling a product business with less burnout. Thank you so much to Jaclyn Snyder for joining us today and sharing her wisdom. If you listened, learned, and profited from this conversation, please share this episode and drop a comment and drop us a review.

And if you prefer to watch [01:18:00] your podcast on video, you can find us on YouTube, Spotify Video, and Apple Video. You can also connect with me on Instagram, TikTok, and X @yapwithhala or find me on LinkedIn under Hala Taha. A huge thank you as always to my fabulous Yap team. You guys are absolutely rock stars, the hardest working team in the business, and I appreciate every single one of you.

This is your host, Hala Taha, AKA The Podcast Princess, signing off.

Maria Malik: [00:00:00] Most people, they're so worried about the self. What am I doing? Do I look good? Am I okay? Am I gonna be judged? Am I gonna remember my script or my presentation? That you forget, hey, there's a whole audience in front of you. Focus on connection a lot more than performance. I think that's the most important thing when it comes to public speaking.

Hala Taha: You can be brilliant at what you do, but if you can't communicate that brilliance, people may never see you as an authority. The good news, you don't have to be an extrovert or the loudest person in the room to command attention, and that's something my guest and close friend knows firsthand. Maria Malik is an executive speaking coach and the founder of The Introverted Speaker.

Maria Malik: I think as introverts, we prep so much because we want to be so perfect. We put in all this extra effort, all this preparation, and then sometimes that becomes cognitive overload, and you don't do so well. Worst thing is looking through your notes again right before.

Hala Taha: How would you recommend an introverted speaker or any speaker prepare for a speech?

Maria Malik: Call up a friend and say, "Hey, can I explain my presentation to you?" When you explain things to people, it gets embedded in your head much [00:01:00] better. So then, now when you actually get up, you'll remember what you have to say. You won't have to memorize. Let's say sometimes you just absolutely don't have the time, and you cannot explain something to someone.

I like to create something I call skeleton notes. What you could do is- What is, like, your favorite thing to do 60 seconds before you go on stage? It's all about, like, starting your clock early. One of the reasons people are afraid is because as soon as they get up, that's when the first 10 minutes, you're the most nervous.

You're more likely to go blank. You're more likely to mess up. If you can't do that, one of the easiest things that you could do is

Hala Taha: Maria, welcome to Young and Profiting podcast.

Maria Malik: Hi, Hala. So excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Hala Taha: Of course. It's so fun to have my friends on the podcast. We've been hanging out basically all year-

since you moved to Austin. We first met on LinkedIn. We were just, like, LinkedIn friends, and now you moved to Austin. We've been hanging out all the time, and I was like, "I gotta have you on the podcast." Fun fact. We gotta

Maria Malik: talk. Fun fact, I moved here because of you, Hala, 'cause you told me- What? ... how great it was, and I was like, I was ready for a new place, so when you told me Austin's amazing, I totally believed you, and you've been [00:02:00] right.

It's been so much fun. I'm loving it here.

Hala Taha: Well, you had a built-in friend right when you got here.

Maria Malik: I did, yeah.

Hala Taha: But today we're gonna focus on communication.

Maria Malik: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Because you are a communication expert. That's what you've been teaching for so many years. And first I wanna talk about the stakes, 'cause the stakes with communication are really high.

Like, it's really important, especially for entrepreneurs, to be a great communicator. So let's talk about the stakes. You can be great, but not necessarily recognized as being great. Talk to us about that.

Maria Malik: Great topic, first of all, to start with, because I've been working now with so many different types of people, and the majority of what I'm seeing is people coming to me.

They're, they're so smart, first of all. They're so brilliant, but then you put them on a stage in front of people, and they, they sound like they have no idea what they're talking about. Mm. Because they get nervous, or they just don't know how to communicate their expertise. So to answer your question, you know, what is at stake, it's your entire brand is at stake.

Yeah. Your entire company, your entire business, your entire... [00:03:00] Your, the revenue. Like, everything at that point is at stake. Because if you can't communicate your value, if you can't talk about what's in here, people don't understand you then. And if they don't understand you, a confused mind, you know how they say, never buys.

So if you're not able to portray everything that's in here, then- People will just not look at you as an authority or an expertise at something.

Hala Taha: You can basically be an expert, but not necessarily an authority. So talk to us about the difference between expertise and authority.

Maria Malik: Exactly. So when it comes to expertise, I know there are so many brilliant entrepreneurs, business owners.

You've probably crafted and, you know, perfected your, your craft. But the problem is, when somebody asks you about it, you don't know how to talk about it. So the difference is that expertise is you being great at something, and authority is how people perceive you. So do people perceive you as somebody that's also great at something or not?

Mm-hmm. Because those are two very different things. Could be so smart, but how are people gonna know unless if you can talk about it and you can demonstrate it?

Hala Taha: Yeah, and sometimes it's the person who's not so brilliant, [00:04:00] not so smart, who's just, like, the loudest person in the room who's perceived as the authority.

Maria Malik: Exactly, and I think some of us know this type of person. You're like, "How did you move up before me when I do all this hard work? I'm so great at what I do, but people respect you and look at you as an authority figure." And it- it's kind of annoying, to be honest.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Well, you talk about this in your, in your new book, The Inverted Speaker, this invisible tax that you pay when you're a communicator that isn't so great at communicating.

Mm-hmm. Tell us about that.

Maria Malik: Yeah, so The Inverted Speaker, when I wrote that book, I was thinking about, okay, what are we losing out on? And I use myself as a prime example. So for me, I was so quiet, and the things that I was losing out was, number one, on jobs that I wanted. I was losing out on the promotions that I wanted.

I wanted to get invited to events at work. I was losing out on that. Mm-hmm. So I wasn't able to network as well. When I started my business, I was losing out on opportunities because I was so afraid of public speaking and getting up in front of people. So it... The- the list kind of keeps going because if you can't get up in front of an audience and speak, [00:05:00] then how are people going to know about you?

Mm-hmm. If there's no visibility, how will people want to work with you? Yeah. If they don't understand you, why would they invest in you? So it just... The list just goes on and on.

Hala Taha: Yeah, so when I think about invisible tax for entrepreneurs, I think about the fact that when you're an entrepreneur, it's not school.

No one's giving you feedback, right? It's not like you're presenting in front of a teacher and then they're gonna tell you, "You did this wrong. You did this wrong." When you're doing a sales pitch or an investor pitch, people are just not gonna buy from you. They're not gonna invest in you. They're not gonna tell you, you didn't communicate effectively, or you sounded unconfident.

They might not even know why they said no. That's so true. Be- It's... So there's an invisible tax in being a poor communicator because people don't trust you enough to buy from you or invest in you.

Maria Malik: Exactly, and that's why when people call communication a soft skill, I'm like, are you serious? Mm. How is that a soft skill when if you don't have the communication, how will people know about you?

Why would they even wanna work with you?

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: So for me, it's definitely a hard skill, and I'm [00:06:00] honestly so surprised that we don't get taught this in school.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Well, you actually have a really interesting backstory, and you didn't grow up as this, like, really... We're actually very different. We were just talking offline.

We look like sisters, but our personalities are actually very different. Like, I grew up wanting to perform in front of everyone, sing in front of everyone, be on stage. I get energy from being on stage. Like, I'm a real extrovert. I've always been my whole life. I love to, like, walk up to people, start conversations.

I love social gatherings, and you are quite different. We both grew up with immigrant parents, but we just ended up being very, very different. So talk to us about being an immigrant or your parents being an immigrant. You were actually born in Pakistan, right? So tell us about your upbringing and how that made you introverted.

Maria Malik: Of course, and I think so many people can relate to this. So first of all, I'm the eldest daughter of immigrant parents. Mm. So I was born in Pakistan. I was about four years old when we moved to Canada, and my parents were so afraid of this new world [00:07:00] because it was completely unknown to them, and I think they installed that, it, fear in me as well.

They're like, "Hey, Maria, don't go out there, you know. Don't be too loud." Like, they just wanted to fit in, just work hard, you know, build their lives, and that was it, and that was what was taught to me as well.

Hala Taha: And really religious, too, right? So even just, like, women are more conservative. You're, you grew up Muslim, right?

So more conservative, more, like, don't speak up, that kind of stuff.

Maria Malik: Exactly. Yeah. I was always told that, you know, a woman's voice should not be heard, that you should just be there. You should be useful. You should be helpful, but stay quiet, Maria. Don't speak too loud. So naturally I became very introverted, and naturally I just became so afraid of the world, to be honest.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: And I think that's why I became an introvert, and it was fine for a while. Like, I was getting by. But then, you know, after school, after university, and then now in the corporate world, like, I was really struggling, and I was like, "Something needs to change." Like, this is not okay. So yeah, being an introvert was something I had to really, really...

Like, I feel like I had to just work extra hard to do everything that would come naturally to extroverts.

Hala Taha: Yeah. [00:08:00] Tell me about a time when you were a kid where you had to do something, uh, that was, like, communication related and, like, what happened? Like, how can somebody tell if they're, like, naturally an introverted speaker?

Maria Malik: Great question. So I remember this one time, I was in grade 11, and I had to give my very first presentation, and I really looked up to my teacher because he had so much faith in me, and it was just, like, such a good environment. So he, we had to do our first presentation, and the night before, like, I was completely ready.

I was like, "Oh, I can't wait to do this." I put in so much work, so much effort into my presentation. The next day, when it was time for me to get up in front of people, by the way, it's my first time ever in, like, grade 11- I freaked out and all I could do was read. So I literally had a paper in front of me, and I did not look up once.

I was just reading and reading, and I was like, "Okay, whatever." I got it done with, but then my teacher came up to me and he's like, "What was that?" He literally said, "What was that?" Because he saw me in other, um, other areas, and he [00:09:00] knew that I was so much more than that.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: So I was like, "I don't know. I was just so scared."

And he's like, "Maria, that was like..." He pretty much said that was horrible without saying it was horrible. And that's when I'm like, "Okay, what is he talking about? Like, wait, was it really that bad?" And that disappointment that I heard from him, like, really stuck with me, and I, I think at that point I knew, wait, something's not right.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: Because after everyone else that went, like, people were so energetic and they were just... They were commanding the room. And I kind of wondered, "Wait, why can't I do that? Why was it so difficult for me?" So I think that was a time that really kind of shifted things for me.

Hala Taha: What is the difference between

Maria Malik: how an introverted person shows up before a speech who isn't trained or coached versus an extroverted person?

Great question. I think as introverts, we prep so much because we want to be so perfect. We want to make sure that we connect with the audience. We do all of that, and because we're so introspective, we think too much. And the way that we show up, like, we have to almost, like, prepare everything. I think what extroverts do is they naturally rely on the audience and their [00:10:00] energy-

Hala Taha: Mm

Maria Malik: to give them more energy to keep going. So I do think extroverts need less preparation. Introverts, because we overthink everything, and I do think more introverts are perfectionists, uh, the way that we show up is we put in all this extra effort, all this preparation, and then sometimes that becomes cognitive overload, and you don't do so well.

So that's why I started this, uh, the whole introverted speaker thing, because I felt like nobody was teaching it from our perspective.

Hala Taha: Yeah. I'm going to ask you so many questions about how to- ... prepare and everything like that, but I first want to ask you, for all these years, you've been teaching communication for a handful of years now.

Do you still get nervous before you go on stage?

Maria Malik: Absolutely. And I think nerves are good. They're not really bad. I think we've given such a negative connotation to nerves. I think nerves just means you're taking this seriously. Mm-hmm. And I would want to be a little bit nervous because it does make me prep a little bit better.

It does make me think a bit harder. And nerves, at the end of the day, they, they just tell you that, yeah, like I [00:11:00] take this seriously.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: So I do think they are important. And absolutely, yeah, I still get nervous, but I've learned to manage it so well, and I think that's what people like to learn from me.

Like, how do I manage this- Yeah ... enough that I wanna keep doing it over and over again instead of, "Okay, that was terrible. Never doing that again."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. For me, when I think of nervousness, nervousness is actually a very similar emotion to excitement. Mm-hmm. It's just, it's like anxious excitement. So I try to tell myself, "Okay, like I'm anxiously excited.

Let me take out the anxious." You know? I prepared and I, I tend to tell myself like affirmations, like, "You prepared. You're super smart. You deserve to be here." And I love to tell myself affirmations- Mm-hmm ... before I go on stage, just like bigging myself up because I know I did the work and I'm ready for that moment, and that really helps me.

What is like your favorite thing to do 60 seconds before you go on stage?

Maria Malik: Yeah. First of all, what you said, affirmations are great. I think that's so powerful. So for me, 60 seconds, and this is [00:12:00] something I love telling everyone, um, it's all about like starting your clock early, right? So one of the reasons people are afraid is because as soon as they get up, that's when the first 10 minutes, and based off of studies too, you're the most nervous.

You're more likely to go blank. Mm-hmm. You're more likely to mess up. You're more likely to feel like, "Oh, I never wanna do this again."

Hala Taha: Yeah, you're basically warming up in front of your audience.

Maria Malik: Exactly. So with those 60 seconds, um, it depends on what environment you're in. Let's say, I'll give you an example.

Um, I was doing a big speech in front of about 400 people in Toronto, and I, it had been a while since I did that. So I knew I was gonna be nervous. So what I asked the, uh, organizers of the event, I was like, "Hey, instead of just putting me on directly, can we do a panel before?" So that helped me start the clock early.

So we had a panel. Mm-hmm. I was sitting down. People asked me questions, and then after that it was my segment. Now, of course, not everyone can do that. So if you can't do that, what I would say is start that 60 second clock early. Go up to people and say, "Hey, I'm Maria, you know. So excited to meet you. Was there something specific that you wanted me to talk about when I [00:13:00] present?"

Start that clock early. Once you start talking early, it just becomes easier because now that one minute before, you're a bit more relaxed, you've already started speaking, and you now know somebody in the audience too.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So it takes away from that pressure a little

Hala Taha: bit. And you, and you don't necessarily even need to do it like...

Th- that's something that you could go like half an hour before and go like, basically you're saying like go sit in the crowd, go engage with people. Be on before you actually have to be on so that you're already warmed up before you get on stage.

Maria Malik: Exactly. It makes a big difference.

Hala Taha: Mm. What's the worst thing you could do before going on stage?

Maria Malik: The worst thing is looking through your notes again Oh ... right before.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: Yeah. And I know a lot of people do that. What I say is even just 24 hours or, you know, the night before, just stop looking at your notes. You're not gonna be able to retain that information. If anything, you're gonna put more pressure on yourself at that point.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So don't try to look at those notes again. Whatever you do, do it the night before, sleep on it. The next morning, get ready, dress up, have a nice meal. Take that pressure off of yourself.

Hala Taha: Yeah. I'm, like, [00:14:00] psychotic when it comes to, uh, preparing for presentations. So typically what I do is I create my slides.

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: I s- I create an entire script.

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: Word for word script.

Maria Malik: Oh, do you memorize it?

Hala Taha: Sometimes

Maria Malik: Okay

Hala Taha: And I will... Yeah, I do memorize it.

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: And I will record it, and then I listen to that recording over and over again. Usually I'm, like, a procrastinator, so it's, like, not done until, like, one or two... If it's two days before, like, I did an excellent job, but usually it's, like, the day before I finish it

And then for, like, 24 hours, I'm just listening it to over and over, and I basically, like, crash memorize. That's actually how I study for my podcast too, like, I crash- Nice ... memorize-

Maria Malik: Okay ...

Hala Taha: for 24 hours what I need to memorize- Okay ... and then it kinda goes away after the moment goes away, you know? Because a lot of my presentations are actually timed where I have, like- Okay

15 minutes or 30 minutes, and I can't go over. And as you know, it's easier to talk longer than shorter, right? Yeah. So, I try to, like, be concise. [00:15:00] But there's been moments where that has worked against me, where I'll get on stage- Mm-hmm ... and, like, I'll miss a word, and then it will, like, screw me up, right?

Maria Malik: Exactly, yeah.

Hala Taha: So, it's like I know it's not perfect, but for the most part, that's kind of the process that works for me, that at least keeps me to time.

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: And the more that I have it memorized, the more that I feel comfortable to actually go off script, right? Yeah. And, like, and, like, wing it. How would you recommend an introverted speaker, or any speaker, prepare for a speech?

Maria Malik: Absolutely. So, I'll tell you me, personally, I hate memorizing things, because I feel like my memory is not that great. So, I know if I forget one word, like you said, then it messes with my head, and then I'm gonna forget something else, and my energy will be off. And most of my clients that I work with, they tell me the same thing, "I don't love to memorize."

So, what I like to do, and what I have my clients do is... So, let's say you've prepared your slides. Okay? Okay. Get your slides done. Call up a friend and say, "Hey, can I explain my presentation to you?"

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: So, as you're going through each slide, explain to them what you want the audience to get from you. For example, let's say I have [00:16:00] my first slide open and I'm talking about a presentation that I missed.

So, I'll be like, "Hala, okay, so this is what I wanna do here. I want people to understand that this one time I had a presentation, and I was so sick to my stomach that I stayed up until 3:00 AM, and because of that, the next morning I felt like crap. I d- I had no sleep. I was so nervous, and I ended up calling in sick."

So, see how when you explain things to people, it gets embedded in your head much better.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: So then, now when you actually get up, you'll be... You'll remember what you have to say, you won't have to memorize, and you'll go through the entire thing without forgetting what you need to say. Mm. So, explain things to people.

That is the number one thing. Another thing, let's say sometimes you just absolutely don't have the time- And you cannot explain something to someone, I like to create something I li- I call skeleton notes. And I have so many examples of my clients that have done this, and they've seen some great stuff happen.

So skeleton notes, what you could do, think of it like a brain dump. So everything that's on your mind. And by the way, one of the reasons why we're so nervous about public speaking is because we're getting that cognitive overload.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: So if [00:17:00] you feel like you put too much pressure on yourself, you don't wanna memorize, take everything out of your head, put it onto paper, and organize it in a way that's easy to understand.

Again, not memorize, to understand. So you're gonna make a bullet point. Point one, I'm gonna talk about presentations. And have your bullet points there. Write down two or three things you want people to remember and you wanna talk about during that time. So again, it's just words, a couple of words. You're not writing down the whole sentence.

So skeleton notes are... They're such a great way for you to, again, release that cognitive overload, for you to release that pressure, but still be able to have a structure while you're speaking.

Hala Taha: Yeah, so basically, like, a couple words that will just, like, help you remember what you're supposed to say. Yeah.

So it's like CliffsNotes.

Maria Malik: Yeah,

Hala Taha: kinda like a prompt. Yeah, okay.

Maria Malik: It's giving you... It'll remind you, "Oh, yeah, this is what I'm supposed to talk about."

Hala Taha: Yeah, this is the next thing that I need to talk about. I also find that, like, when you're the actual one who made the presentation and, like, put the thoughts together, that it's way easier than presenting something that somebody else did.

Like, my [00:18:00] team will always try to, like, make presentations for me, and, like, I'll get it, and I'll be like, "I'll have to redo it all so that I feel like it's mine- It's mine. Mm-hmm ... and then I can actually present it."

Maria Malik: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely make your own presentation.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Um, okay. So what is something... So you said, "Don't look at your notes before you get started."

What do you do in terms of, like- Customization or audience preparation, does that matter at all to you when, in terms of, like, connecting with the audience?

Maria Malik: Absolutely. I think the biggest problem right now is also people present because they think that, "I have to perform, and I have to be so great," and they forget that your audience is there, right?

50% of public speaking and a presentation is your audience. So be open to improvising if you need to. And here's the thing, look at your audience. Most people, they're so worried about the self, "What am I doing? Do I- Yeah ... look good? Am I okay? Am I gonna be judged? Uh, am I gonna remember my script or my presentation?"

That you forget, hey, there's a whole audience in front of you. Instead, [00:19:00] look at your audience. They're gonna tell you how you're doing. So if you see them on their phones, if you see them yawning, if you see them laying back a little bit, okay, that means they're getting relaxed. If they're talking to the person next to you, that means you're actually doing something wrong.

It is our job as speakers to keep them engaged.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Maria Malik: So of course, ask questions. Um, and if you've been speaking for, let's say, 20 minutes and you can see people are getting tired, stop, maybe do a quick exercise.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Maria Malik: So engage with your audience. Focus on connection a lot more than performance. I think that's the most important thing when it comes to public speaking.

Hala Taha: Tell me more about that, connection more than performance. When you're saying performance, like, what do you mean exactly?

Maria Malik: Yeah. So I'll give you an example. I have all these clients that I work with when I'm like, okay, I'll get to know them a little bit. We'll be talking. I had this one client, Shalini. She was so bubbly, so friendly.

She's like, "Hi, Maria, I'm so excited to be here." And then I'll be like, "Okay, Shalini, can you talk about X, Y, and Z as an exercise?" And she'll be like, "Okay." And then it's almost like she had, like, this reporter voice. She'd be like Hi, my name is Shailene, and today I'm gonna talk about this. So it's like a whole different [00:20:00] person.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: And I can tell, I'm like, "Shailene, that's not you. When I talk to you, you're just, like, bubbly, you have m- much more relaxed body language. You're so much more fun to listen to." So that's the performance of what we think a great speaker should sound like. We try to become that person. And then, of course, it's no fun anymore, 'cause you're like...

It's- it's almost, like, icky. It's like, "That's not me."

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Versus imagine you get up there and you could be yourself, you can have fun, you could talk to people. You're exchanging really good energy. I do think public speaking is an exchange of energy. Mm-hmm. So imagine doing it that way, and then you walk off, and you're like, "Wow, that was so much fun."

Yeah. "I wanna do it again."

Hala Taha: I find that when I am speaking in front of, like, 50 people, it's a lot harder than speaking in front of, like, 7,000 people like I did at Funnel Hacking Live. Because when you're on a stage with thousands of people, you can't really see anyone. Mm. It's just, like, lights, and so you just kind of, like, look around and, like, you can't really see anyone.

But when there's 50 people, sometimes I find myself, like, looking at one person, and I think that person [00:21:00] eventually gets, like, uncomfortable, right?

Maria Malik: Yeah.

Hala Taha: You talk about the Z pattern-

Maria Malik: Mm-hmm ...

Hala Taha: that you use- Yes ... so that

Maria Malik: you can look

Hala Taha: at all different... And I love this. Tell us about that.

Maria Malik: Sure. So one of the hardest things for people to do when it comes to public speaking is figure out where do I look, because especially if there's a lot of people, and it's scary when there's 50 pairs of eyeballs looking at you.

So if you are in front of your audience, one of the easiest things that you could do is form a Z pattern. So pick four people in your audience. Find one person on the top left, one person on the top right, one person at the bottom left, one person at the bottom right. And as you're going through this, look at those four people.

Only look at those four people, and you see how when you're making that Z pattern- Yeah ... to the audience, it looks like you're scanning everyone- Mm-hmm ... and you're looking at everyone, but really you're just focusing on four people. I love that. And I don't know about you, but I think it's much easier focusing on 4 people than 50.

Hala Taha: Yeah, and then it just looks like you're just scanning all areas, and you probably look more confident, 'cause you're not just looking at one place or at the slides or- Absolutely ... something like that.

Maria Malik: Yeah.

Hala Taha: How about [00:22:00] body language? Something that I loved learning from you is that, like, the smaller the opportunity- The smaller your hand gestures.

The bigger the stage, the bigger your hand gestures. So how big or small, like, in this podcast interview, like, am I doing too much right now?

Maria Malik: You're actually doing really good, Hala.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Maria Malik: Yeah. I'll, so I'll tell you how to kinda figure out what to do with your body language. First of all, use your body language.

Most people don't. When they're speaking, they're just like, they're, they're ... So you can tell they're nervous. They're, like, holding themselves. They, uh, their shoulders kinda go up. They're so constricted. So first of all, relax your body because people can tell. People pick up body language very, very quickly.

It's almost like when you meet someone and you're like, "Hmm, I really like this person," and then, versus when you meet someone, you are like, "I don't like this person." Mm. It's because of the cues they're giving you with your b- with their body language. So in order to answer your question, Hala, how big should your body language be, almost imagine like you're holding your audience in your hands, right?

So if, like, right, if, if there's, like, 50 people, I should be able to hold them in [00:23:00] my hands like this. That's how big it should be. If there's a thousand people, okay, now we're here. See how I can picture everyone in my hands here? More than that, then you can get bigger. So that's how you decide how big your body language should be.

But for the most part, not all of us go and speak in front of 50,000 people, right? For the most part, you shouldn't be crossing your hands from here, your eyes, and your bellybutton. That's where you're really gonna be working. So it's this little space right here.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Maria Malik: And of course- The other thing with body language is, especially your hands, show your palms.

Mm. The more you show your palms- That

Hala Taha: means, like, open, friendly,

Maria Malik: right? Exactly. Think of it when you're, like, when you're lying. When you're lying, you're like, "No, it wasn't me."

Hala Taha: Oh.

Maria Malik: Versus, "Yeah, it was me."

Hala Taha: She's, like, crossing her arms- Exactly ... for any- for everybody listening on audio.

Maria Malik: Yeah.

Hala Taha: But I thought that when you don't show your palms, it's, like, actually more authoritative.

Like, if I'm, like, trying to tell my team something really serious- Mm-hmm ... or if I'm, like, running for some sort of, like, politics thing, like, you know, a politician, you wanna actually not show your palms, right? So that you look more of, like, a, a leader.

Maria Malik: I [00:24:00] think you should still show your palms. Okay. Um, it's how you do it.

So when you're explaining something, that's when your hands should be open. That's when they should be moving like this. But I like what you did there. When you're trying to show people, "Hey, this, I mean business," you're still showing your hands, right? But again, you're, there's a lot of movement. So when I say don't, when I say show your hands, I mean avoid putting your hands in your pocket, avoid putting them behind you, avoid crossing your arms.

Now you're barely seeing my palms, right? Yeah. Here you're still somewhat seeing the palms, so this is still okay.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So for the most part, keep your hands open, but when it comes to showing more authority, you just have a bit more stern body language. Like this was stern versus, "Guys, I need you to do this," versus, "I need this done."

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: You see how it's two very different messaging-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Maria Malik: to your body?

Hala Taha: What, what do we do with our feet?

Maria Malik: Great question. Depends on if you're sitting or standing. So if you're standing, work with the room that you have. Don't just plant your feet in one area. So move back and forth, go left and right, but it should be very subtle movements.

Nothing too fast because once you start moving fast, then it's like, oh, am I- [00:25:00] Yeah ... you start looking like you're fidgeting and you're nervous. So have nice fluid movements. Avoid being diagonal. I, I see some people go diagonal, and that's confusing to your audience. So one step to the left, but for the most part, make sure your chest is facing them and you never- Mm

turn your back towards them. Come back to the middle. Go back to the other side. You can move back. When you're saying something important, lean in, take a step forward. So I wish we were standing. I could show you better.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: But- And- ... the point is, have movement Okay ... don't just stay put the whole time. But when you're saying something very important that you want them to remember, that's when you should stand still- Mm

and change everything up and say what you need to say.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And, and speaking of- Wanting importance around what you're saying, taking a big pause before or, like, slowing down also helps as well, right?

Maria Malik: Absolutely. Think about your favorite speaker. Do you ever see that speaker rushing through everything? No.

They're almost, like, so present in the moment, and they pause because they wanna show you that they're comfortable around you. There's no rush. [00:26:00] And also, you have to understand nowadays, too, audiences, they have such short attention spans. I blame TikTok, honestly. I blame TikTok. Because people just want the next thing, like, okay, keep it moving.

So when you pause, you let people absorb that information, retain it, and then they don't feel like it's too much. Because when people feel like it's too much, then they don't wanna listen anymore. They've- Hmm ... you've, you've lost your audience. It's

Hala Taha: like information overload, so it's like slow, don't say too, too much.

Exactly. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, let's go back to preparation, 'cause something I didn't ask you about, my team makes me presentations, but now AI- Mm ... is making people their speeches and their presentations. What do people have to watch out for with that?

Maria Malik: You have to remember that, first of all, I, I love AI.

I will say this, and I use AI for a lot of things, but AI will never think the way that you think. So yes, you can use AI. You c- like dump your ideas in there. Say, "Hey, AI, this is what I wanna talk about." I do this all the time, even with my trainings. I'll be like, "Hey, this is what I wanna teach. The, these are my ideas.

What do [00:27:00] you think?" And then it's gonna give me a list of things. Let's say it gives you a list of 10 things. Ta- do this, talk about this. Out of those 10 things, there's gonna be maybe three that you should a- actually take away. So yeah, definitely use AI, but don't let it replace your mind. Because trust me, I have tried this.

I've created content sometimes using AI, and I'm like, "Oh, this looks great," and then it just doesn't resonate with people. Yeah. Versus when I take my ideas and then throw it into AI and say, "Hey, let's work with this," then we come up with something great.

Hala Taha: I think the moral of the story is do the first draft.

Exactly. Do the first draft yourself.

Maria Malik: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Use AI as a sparring partner, not to, like, create it for you.

Maria Malik: Absolutely.

Hala Taha: Does doing more reps actually help you become a better speaker by default?

Maria Malik: No.

Hala Taha: Why?

Maria Malik: So you could keep doing the same thing over and over again and be doing it wrong.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Maria Malik: So yes, reps help if you're gonna go back and watch it, point out what you did well, point out what you did wrong, so, or if you get feedback from somebody, like from a coach, from a friend, [00:28:00] then yes, you get better.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Maria Malik: Because like I said, you could keep doing the same thing over and over again the wrong way, and you're never gonna know until you look back and watch it.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Did you ever have a client that- Did a lot of reps, but wasn't necessarily a good speaker ...

Maria Malik: Oh, all the time. And this is the thing, Hala, also. I think most people don't realize that they're bad speakers.

They think, "Oh, just because I can go up there and I feel fine, this is great. Let me keep doing it." But then when we go back and watch it, we're like, "Hey, did you notice you did this with your body language? Hey, why did you scratch your neck? What signal are you giving people here?"

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Maria Malik: Or, "Look, you repeated this twice, and you didn't really need to do that."

So when we go back and watch it, and we fix those things, and then people do it again, each time they get better and better. Yeah. And those reps are the ones that actually count, I think, at the end of the day.

Hala Taha: Hmm. Well, this is a great segue into a coaching session I thought that we could do, where you could actually be my coach.

And guys, I had not had time to prep for this. So I had AI write me the questions. Mm-hmm. And I don't know them, and I'm going to give Maria [00:29:00] my iPad.

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: And you are gonna ... You've got some prompts. You don't have to say them all. Okay. But basically, I want you to judge me. I'm on the spot. I don't know what you're going to ask me.

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: I'm going to just say it from my heart how I would say it in real life. I might mess up, and you're going to tell me what I messed up and how I can improve it, okay?

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Maria Malik: Absolutely. All right. Welcome, Hala.

Hala Taha: Thank you.

Maria Malik: Today, we are gonna talk about a couple things. So I have a few questions for you.

Are you ready? Yes. Okay, Hala. So there are thousands of business podcasts out there. Why does the world need Young and Profiting?

Hala Taha: Well, Young and Profiting podcast is all about no fluff and actionable advice. I think what separates me from other podcasters is I really do my research, I study my guests, I read their books, and I try to make sure in that hour, hour and 15 minutes that we're together, that it's nothing but advice that can help entrepreneurs succeed.

Maria Malik: Great. Okay. So should I tell you first- Yeah.

Hala Taha: Why not?

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: Anything.

Maria Malik: So let's talk about the [00:30:00] stuff that you do that you do well, and then we'll talk about what you can improve. Sure. Okay? So something you do well, you have great body language. So you said the one, two, and three, and you're pointing at me and you're looking right at me.

So you do have that. You do have great body language. What I do recommend when it comes to your eye contact, you do tend to look up a lot. Hmm. So whenever you start, you look up. And you know why we look up? We look up because our eyes are literally looking into our brain, like, "Wait, what was that thing?

What was that thing?" "

Hala Taha: What was it?" Looking for the

Maria Malik: answer. You're like looking for... Yeah. So you don't want your audience to think, "Hey, you have to think so much about the answer." Hmm. So when you start, look right at the person and answer, okay? The other thing you could do better is pause a little bit- Hmm ... at the beginning.

I

Hala Taha: was like boom, boom, boom,

Maria Malik: out. Yeah. You're like- Yeah ... "Oh, yeah, let's go." Right? When we're doing that, that's almost like telling the person, "Hey, I just wanna get it over with. I just wanna get into it." But an authority figure, they stop. They, they look like they're thinking about it and they say, "Hey, that's a great question," and then they get into it.

Also, before you answer the question, comment on the question. Really? That's always a great thing to do. "Oh, wow, Marie, I'm so glad you asked me that question," or, "You know, I was just talking about this the [00:31:00] other day with Hala."

Hala Taha: I actually, like, don't like it when my guests, when I ask them a question and they're like, "Great question."

Yeah. To me, I feel like they're buying time. Mm-hmm. And it's, like, obvious that they're buying time. You know?

Maria Malik: Sometimes it's good to buy time. O- okay. You don't have to do it every time. Um, but you could also say, it doesn't always have to be, "That's a great question." I feel

Hala Taha: like you gotta switch it up.

Maria Malik: Yes.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Don't keep it so basic. If you just say, "That's a great question," that's just, like, okay, gets repetitive. Or like, "

Hala Taha: I've been thinking," or, "I was thinking about that the other day," or- Yeah ... "I was just talking to my friend about that."

Maria Malik: Exactly. "Earlier this morning." Be specific.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: And then it just sounds like, oh, now it's more of a conversation, right?

And then it becomes a little bit more genuine. So one more thing I did notice, of course, you're like me, Hala. You're, like, a perfectionist. You need everything to be so great. I suffer from that, too. The problem with that is sometimes it comes off as, like, rehearsed, and it comes off as, wait, s- peop- people don't like perfectionism- Yeah

as much as they used to. Sorry, guys. So it's okay to- So it's okay to let us see a little bit more of who Hala is.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Okay? So let's do that for the [00:32:00] next one.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Maria Malik: Okay? So just relax a little bit. Okay. I'll

Hala Taha: try. Keep it easy. Okay? So Hala, another question for you. A potential client says Yap Media is too expensive.

Oh. How do you respond? Okay, I'm gonna try to look at you. I did it again. I started looking- ... in the, in the wind. Um, I'm sorry that you feel that YAP Media is too expensive, however, I feel like our price reflects the amount of work and effort it takes to run social media and podcast accounts. Uh, we don't cut corners.

I stand up an A player team for all of my clients, and we do an exceptional job. We're an award-winning social media and podcast agency, and also, I'm really picky with my clients. We've got a wait list of clients pretty much at all times, and so if it's not for you, I'm about to be like, "I'll just- See you later

work with somebody else."

Maria Malik: Get out of here. There's the door. That was not very good. Okay, [00:33:00] so this time, first of all, body language is great, so you fixed what we talked about.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: What I was focusing on more this time was your actual content and what you

Hala Taha: said. I know. I was saying I'm sorry. That's not-

Maria Malik: Yeah, so take out that softening language.

I'm sorry. I don't really... Own it.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: I guess maybe it's not for you then, right? So you want to speak with a bit more conviction. I feel like what you're doing, almost you're convincing me-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Maria Malik: that hey, it's not. Like, hey, no, but it is, you know? So try not to convince me, and you're gonna do that by not by, by taking away that softening language.

The other thing I noticed was your structure, you start off great. Yeah. You're like, "Well, this and this," and you go on, but you don't know how to end it. Yeah. You're like, "How do I wrap this up?" Yeah, how do I wrap it up? I could see you getting nervous, right? Mm-hmm. So a lot of people struggle with this, the outro I like to call it.

How do you wrap it up, right? So what's the last thing you say? The last thing you say is just as important as the first thing you say. So we could talk about a couple of things you could have said here. You could have said, "Yeah, unfortunately, if it's not for you, then maybe another time. Does that sound good to you?"

Hala Taha: Yeah, or like, you know, "Let me know. Maybe now's not a great time for you financially, but [00:34:00] if it ever becomes an opportunity, we're always here."

Maria Malik: Exactly. "

Hala Taha: We're here when you need us." There

Maria Malik: you go. Yeah. That's an ending.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So that's the only thing I would change. Should we do one more?

Hala Taha: Should I try... Yeah, let's do one more.

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: Let's do one more. Sure. But that, this is great.

Maria Malik: Good. I like it. You're, you're doing really good, though, Hala. You're really good. Okay, I like this one.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Maria Malik: So Hala, what's the single most important lesson you've learned about entrepreneurship?

Hala Taha: That's a good one. I told you guys I didn't prep, so I didn't think about this.

The single most important lesson that I've learned about entrepreneurship is that there's always gonna be ups and downs, and you can't get too high on the highs, and you can't get too low on the lows. And in my opinion, the best place to be is, like, an even keel. Things are going great, they're going great.

I'm positive, I'm happy. But also, I'm not overdoing it in terms of my excitement because I know the lows are gonna come. And when the lows come, I try not to think about it as the end of the world, and I [00:35:00] try to separate my identity from whether my business is doing good or bad, and also my mood from whether my business is doing good or bad.

Maria Malik: Awesome. Okay, a few things I loved. Your pacing was much better this time. You weren't rushing. You weren't, like, l- leaning in trying to kind of convince me of anything. You were taking your time. That sounded more like an authority figure. You were t- taking your time. Your pace was good. There were some times you speed...

You did increase your speed, which is good.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Here's the thing with public speaking. The more variety you have in what you're doing, and saying, and how you say it, the better.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: The more it keeps the audience engaged. So you do that really well. You did that really well. With this one, again, I think the ending.

It was like, "Ugh, how do I wrap

Hala Taha: up?" Do I... I, I repeated it too much. "How do I wrap up?" Yeah, yeah.

Maria Malik: Yeah. So don't be afraid of ending with conviction. Say what you need to say and say, "Yeah." Uh, one thing you could do is repeat the question again. So you could say, "Yeah, so that is the most important lesson that I've learned about entrepreneurship."

Anything else, Maria? Right?

Hala Taha: I love that,

Maria Malik: yeah. So you can end it that way. Your start was really good. Cool. I like that you were so honest about, "Wow, I told you guys I didn't prepare for this." [00:36:00] Now we started to see Hala, the real Hala. Yeah. And it looked less performative.

Hala Taha: Let's do more because I feel like we're getting really great, like, advice from this that I wasn't planning on asking you.

So I feel like, just, like, ask me one, at least one more.

Maria Malik: For sure. Ooh, okay, this is a good one. And something I'm gonna do here, Hala, is I'm gonna interrupt you as well. Okay. I wanna see how you bounce back from that, okay?

Hala Taha: Okay.

Maria Malik: So tell me about a recent business decision that you got wrong.

Hala Taha: Ooh. Uh, oh, that I got wrong.

I guess the only thing that I can think of is, so I launched a new series- What- ... called How We Profit.

Maria Malik: When was this, Hala?

Hala Taha: Uh, this was, like, three months ago, and a lot of my listeners probably have heard the series. I basically interview upcoming entrepreneurs.

Maria Malik: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: And the reason why I started this new series is because I have so many sponsors, and I wanted to spread out all my sponsorships across more episodes.

I didn't want so many commercials on every episode because we have so many sponsorship opportunities, and I wanted to take them all and not say no. However, this has increased my [00:37:00] recording cadence to two or three times a week, when it used to be one or two times a week.

Maria Malik: It sounds like you don't like that.

Hala Taha: I don't.

Maria Malik: Hmm. Yeah. Why is that?

Hala Taha: Because it doesn't enable me to work on my business, and then I feel like I'm always scrambling, I'm always MIA, I'm always studying. And then I get, like, resentful. Like, my bookings team will do such a great job, and I'll be like, "Why do I have so many interviews?" They're like, "'Cause you need them 'cause it's on the schedule."

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Because we've got sponsors. So I think I made a mistake by putting too much on my plate.

Maria Malik: Okay. I love that. So a few things you did here that was really good. You were starting to veer off into the rambling category 'cause you were, like, going here and there, but I liked how you brought it back.

So that last sentence, you c- tied it all together. Great job with that. I really like that, again, we're seeing more of you now, Hala. It's less performative.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Um, I also like that when I interrupted you, you didn't let that deter you from answering the question. Mm-hmm. You always brought it back. Yeah. So great job with that.

Thanks. Your body language is, it's looking a lot, a little bit better as well. Mm-hmm. It seems [00:38:00] like you're opening up slightly more- Mm-hmm ... which is great. I know right now sometimes, like, you know, I do this too. I, I- Yeah ... feel like I have to sit so perfectly. Prim and proper,

Hala Taha: yeah.

Maria Malik: You were relaxing a little, but then you were bringing it back, so I really liked that too.

Um, one thing I would say when somebody asks you a question, so I interrupted you almost three times, so- Sometimes when we get interrupted, you can see it in people's face. They're like, "Whoa, how did, why did you stop me?" So I could com- almost see it in your face. You're like, "Ugh." So instead of that, just be like, "Oh, yeah.

Actually," you know, almost like lean into it.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: Almost let the other person feel like, "I'm glad you interrupted me and you stopped me." Mm-hmm. "I'm gonna keep going from here." That, again, shows confidence. It shows that you don't mind being interrupted. Yeah. It's not like you're following a script. You can veer off to other things, so that makes you look a lot more like an authority figure as well.

Mm. I love that. But yeah, good job. Thank

Hala Taha: you for being my coach. Of course. How much do I owe you?

Maria Malik: That was great. How much do I owe

Hala Taha: you? I'll buy you a coffee.

Maria Malik: You're funny. Yes, I'll take a coffee.

Hala Taha: So Maria, back when you were growing up, when, when did you like decide like I... It, it sounded like it was 11th grade where you were [00:39:00] like, "I need to turn this around."

Maria Malik: So it, I think 11th grade was the first time it came to me, but I still kind of brushed it off and I thought it was fine. Um, I am gonna tell you about a time where I was like, "Okay, enough is enough." Yeah. "Something needs to be done." So when I was in, um, I got my dream job at Stanford University, and I was so excited for it.

Um, I got the job and I started, you know, doing the job. Everything was going great until one day my supervisor, she was like my manager, she's like, "Hey, Maria, you're gonna have to do a presentation." And I was like, "Ugh, yikes. Okay." So I'm like, "Okay, this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get over this fear." I had a fear of public speaking.

I'm like, "This is gonna be the best presentation ever." So I start prepping two weeks before. The night before, guess what? I'm still prepping, I'm still memorizing, I'm still trying to get it perfect, that it's 3:00 AM now, and the presentation was at 9:00 the next day. So I wake up at 8:00 and I felt sick to my stomach, and I literally, Hala, I called in sick.

Hala Taha: Oh my

Maria Malik: God.

Hala Taha: And

Maria Malik: I still till, till this day, I'm like, "Wow, how did [00:40:00] I do that?" Like, I disappointed myself, I disappointed my manager, I disappointed everyone else that was gonna attend. So that was the defining moment for me. I was like, "I can't continue like this." Mm. Because I was so ambitious. There was so much I wanted to do, and I'm like, "If I can't get up and speak in front of people, then how am I ever gonna make it?"

Hala Taha: Yeah, how are you gonna move up the ladder and

Maria Malik: everything? So that was that defining moment for me. I'm, like, letting people down, m- not just myself, but other people. Mm-hmm. I was like, "Yeah, this, this needs to change."

Hala Taha: Who did you learn from? What did you do in those, like, early days?

Maria Malik: Yeah, so as an introvert, I did what everyone else thinks we should do.

I started watching YouTube videos. I started reading books. I started practicing in front of the mirror. But I think it wasn't until I hired my first coach and I started to get feedback that it really pushed me to do better. So I tried everything under the sun, everything, and I think that's why my programs now are so great because I know, especially from an introvert's perspective- Mm-hmm

what works and what doesn't.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So that was, it, it, it was a mix of everything.

Hala Taha: Mm. What, what are some of the first things that you tell... Like, like, if, if you had [00:41:00] me as a client, what would you make me do?

Maria Malik: Yeah, so it would depend on where you are because sometimes I have clients that are coming in that have a severe case of they're so afraid of public speaking.

So if it was someone like that that came to me- Yeah ... the first thing I would do is work on their mindset and figure out where is this fear coming from. So there's actually seven different types of fears when it comes to public speaking. Think of it this way. When we say, "I'm afraid of public speaking," nobody talks about what does that mean.

Hala Taha: Mm,

Maria Malik: mm-hmm. What does that mean?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: When you're afraid of public speaking, the most common ones are, number one, you have a fear of failure; number two, you have a fear of embarrassment; or number three, you have a fear of judgment. So are you looking at people and thinking, "They're gonna judge me for what I say"?

If it's that, we approach it very differently. Because if you feel like people are gonna judge you, then you wanna build a better relationship with people. If you have a fear of failure, okay, where is that coming from? And when I work with my clients with this, it honestly, it sometimes turns into a therapy session.

I

Hala Taha: was gonna say, it sounds

Maria Malik: like-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Maria Malik: therapy. We go back to, like, okay, s- and a lot of the times with fear of [00:42:00] failure, what I see is that these are kids that are usually the eldest child. They are kids who have parents that push them and want them to just be so perfect, so they're afraid of disappointing their parents.

They're afraid of disappointing their teachers, their managers. That was me, right? I had a huge- Mm ... fear, fear of failure. So it really depends on where you come from. That's number one. Sometimes people will come to me- And they've been speaking for years, but they're like, "Yeah, you know, I'm not bad. I just wanna get better."

And then with them, what they just really need is the fine-tuning and structure. So there's a lot of people, especially extroverts, that when they come in, and because they're experts, people ask them questions, and they ramble. They'll talk about this topic, that topic, this, this, and then I did this, and then this happened.

And your audience is just like, "When is this person gonna stop," right? So with them, I focus more on things like structure. Okay, how do you begin? Uh, what do you say in the middle? How do you end? Yeah, like you told me.

Hala Taha: How long should it be? Hala, wrap it up.

Maria Malik: Yeah. You guys, it's much more impactful if you speak for two minutes, give people the point, start [00:43:00] with the conclusion, give people what they want, land that plane.

And then if they have questions, let them ask for it. Don't just assume people would wanna know everything because that's, again, it's too much information overload, and you lose your audience.

Hala Taha: I remember when I worked in corporate, I was a rock star. I used to get promoted all the time, but I would get two pieces of feedback.

Yeah. You're always late, and I talk too much.

Maria Malik: Really?

Hala Taha: I remember my man- And it really hurt my feelings. I remember my manager sat me down, and he was like, "Hala, you're wonderful. Uh, you talk too much- ... in meetings."

Maria Malik: Oh my gosh, really?

Hala Taha: I made a career out of it, luckily. But what do you say to an extrovert in terms of, like, not, I guess, being too loud?

I guess I was too loud.

Maria Malik: Yeah. So great question. Uh, what I want to say here is, so I teach a lot of different types of structures, and one of the most common ones is called PRI. So if you get put on the spot, use PRI. What is PRI? P stands for point. Get to the point. Start with the point. Tell people what the point is.

R is the reason. What [00:44:00] is the reasoning behind it? It should not be more than one or two sentences. And then the I, the impact. What impact does this have in terms of everything? Because a lot of the times we'll talk about something, and then we'll give the reason and that's it. But we don't conclude it with that impact.

Why does this matter? Mm. So if you follow a structure like that, PRI, again, uh, it's gonna make sure you're not veering off into different areas. You're only speaking for enough time, and it's gonna be a lot more impactful. Yeah. So two minutes tops, even a minute and a half.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Should not be more than that.

Hala Taha: To be honest, when I reflect back at that moment, like, I feel like if I was a man, that I would have never gotten that feedback. So I don't, I don't take it personally. Yeah. To me, I'm just like, "I'm gonna keep being loud and-"

Maria Malik: Yeah ...

Hala Taha: contributing."

Maria Malik: Absolutely. You know? You should. And like you said, you made a career out of it, which is great, but I'm sure you've probably interviewed so many people too, and sometimes you're like, "Did you...

You're not getting to the point." Oh, yeah. Like, "I asked you a question." Yeah, that's- "Just get to the point."

Hala Taha: Exactly.

Maria Malik: Right? And it's, it's great because things sometimes are recorded and you can cut them out, but you can't do that in person. You can't do that on stage, right? So that's

Hala Taha: when- And to your [00:45:00] point, you, like, kind of lose your authority 'cause you seem less intelligent when you can't just get to the point, and you're just rambling or, like, you know, bouncing from story to story.

It just feels like you are not clear yourself. And most

Maria Malik: experts do that. It's, it's the expert trap where you have so much knowledge about a certain topic, you wanna... And I, it comes from a good place. You wanna give everyone as much information, as much context. But you have to remember, again, short attention spans, and people just want to know the answer.

So start with the answer, get to the point, and then see if people have questions. Take it from there.

Hala Taha: Maria, I want to talk about some of your client examples because you are such a phenomenal coach. You actually have a new book out called The Introverted Speaker, and you've been coaching for many years.

So you've got so many great examples that I want to talk about. One of them was about a client that hated public speaking, and then, like, entered some sort of a competition- ... and ended up winning after he got coached by you. Tell us about that.

Maria Malik: Yes. I will never forget this client because he's, he was a [00:46:00] type B personality, so his name was Ethan and he told me, "Maria, please tell my story anytime."

So his name was Ethan, and he would show up late to every call. He would be all scattered. You'd see his kids running around in the back. Like, it was crazy. Uh, but he wanted to get better at public speaking because he was a business owner, a CEO of his company. So this one time, you know, after coaching him for a little while, he, uh, went on to this conference, and he didn't even know he was supposed to do a speech.

So he freaked out, but he basically sat down, and he took about 10 minutes, and he wrote down his skeleton notes. Okay. So again, that brain dump of, like, what do I wanna talk about, how... And he pretty much took everything out, wrote it on paper. He did the speech. Uh, there were 20 people, and it was actually a competition as well.

So he did the speech, and in the end, he won the best speech award. And he, the first thing he did was take a picture, it was a small little trophy, and he sent it to me, and I was like, "Ethan, what is this?" He's like, "Oh, my God, Maria, I just used your skeleton notes to create my speech in 10 minutes, and I won best speech award that night."

Hala Taha: Wow.

Maria Malik: [00:47:00] And I was like, "Great, so what happened then?" And he told me he had, "So many people come up to me, congratulate me, added me on LinkedIn." He got a whole bunch of leads, and he's like, "It was so simple and easy for people to understand." He's like, "This is gonna get me more clients." So he's like, "I'm so excited.

This was, like, such a good feeling." So that was something that I was like, "Yeah, see, it's sometimes the simplest things."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: And you don't need to prepare for five, six days. Yeah. You could literally, 10, 10 minutes, write down what you need to say, but if you know how to say it, it'll have such a good impact on people.

Hala Taha: Yeah. How about the entrepreneurs that are scared of being the face of their company? Have you ever experienced a client that doesn't wanna be the face of their company when that's so important these days? All the time. I have this client, um, he

Maria Malik: basically created an AI LinkedIn tool.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: And it, it was taking off.

It was doing so well. He was getting all these podcast invites. He was, um, being asked to get on all of these stages, and he just kind of kept pushing them off, pushing them off. So we started working together, and we [00:48:00] worked on his delivery, we worked on his stage presence, his executive presence, because he was in a lot of meetings as well.

Um, and after that, he finally started taking on these opportunities. Uh, he's doing amazing now. Actually, I think he grew his LinkedIn following to, like, 50K or something- Oh,

Hala Taha: wow ...

Maria Malik: um, just based off of showing up and using a lot of that content. So his story's a great lesson for entrepreneurs, because you as an entrepreneur, you as a business owner, people look at you as the face of the company.

So if you don't know how to communicate, if you don't know how to speak, if you don't know how to tell people about your business, then again, you're losing business. You're, you're harming yourself so badly. Mm-hmm. Right? And e- especially in today's world, Hala, everything is online. Yeah. You know? Every- your face needs to be everywhere.

It is. You do have to be the face of the company. So you have to learn how to communicate. If you don't, it's, it's gonna harm you and your business at the end of the day. How did you,

Hala Taha: like, baby step him into being comfortable if he was so uncomfortable to be public-facing?

Maria Malik: So we did a lot of, a lot of different [00:49:00] things.

So one exercise I love telling people to do, and if you're listening to this, do this right now- Put a a camera in front of you, your iPhone, ask ChatGPT for a question, and this is a great exercise. Do this every single day. Ask ChatGPT for a question. Let's say, you know, what is the best thing you like about your business?

Look at the camera and answer it, okay? Mm. And then go- So like a

Hala Taha: mock interview.

Maria Malik: Exactly, because you do have to build a relationship with a camera, too. It's very different online versus on camera. And then you'll be surprised at what you see. You're gonna notice maybe you're using filler words. Maybe you are s- showing fidgeting behaviors.

You know when you're nervous, you like scratch the back of your neck. Women, we, we play with our jewelry when we're nervous. These are signs your audience are picking up on. So look back and watch and see what you're doing. So I had him do those, a whole bunch of those, submit them to me, and I watched it with him.

So we both watched. He's like, "Oh, I had no idea I said that. Oh, I say you know a lot." Mm. "Oh, I look up a lot. Oh, I'm constantly, like, scratching my head." So once you see yourself, you see yourself through the lens of your audience. [00:50:00] So however you're feeling in that moment, they're feeling the same thing in that moment, too.

If you're getting... You're feeling cringed, your audience is probably like, "Uh, what's he saying?" So that's a great exercise to do. Record yourself, watch it back, get feedback.

Hala Taha: And like we were just talking about, being a poor communicator has an invisible tax as an entrepreneur. Again, like- You lose sales opportunities, you lose investor opportunities, even like your team doesn't respect you or doesn't know the direction you wanna take the company in 'cause you can't clearly communicate or they don't respect your authority, right?

Absolutely. So there's so many reasons why you should get better at this.

Maria Malik: Absolutely.

Hala Taha: Now, you actually had a client that did a TED Talk-

Maria Malik: Mm-hmm ...

Hala Taha: eventually.

Maria Malik: Yes, yes. I'll never forget her because she was that same client that I told you about earlier, you know, super bubbly, very friendly.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: And she actually came to me because she had to do so many presentations at work, and she was writing a script and memorizing it, and she used to tell me, "Maria, every time I have a presentation, I'm dreading it because I know [00:51:00] I'm gonna repeat that same script, and I know it's just gonna be so uncomfortable."

So just within six months, not only did she get off of the scripts- Mm-hmm ... and she started to enjoy those presentations, she also got promoted. And then after she got promoted, I got a message from her once and she said, "Maria, you know what? I think I wanna do a TED Talk." And this was someone that was afraid of public speaking.

Mm. And I was like, "Okay, let's do it. Let's get ready." I got her ready, and by the end of the year she did her first TED Talk, and now if you ever go to her LinkedIn, it's like plastered everywhere, and she's like, "It's the most incredible thing I've ever done," and she's like, "That was something." And it's not just about credibility, it's also for yourself.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: She's like, "I kinda made like that girl in me happy, that little shy girl in me." And it's, that's just such a great feeling, right? So even... Yes, great for business, but for yourself, doing something like that, it's, it's memorable, and- Wow ... it makes you so much more confident in everything else that you do- Totally

in your life.

Hala Taha: Yeah. What made you wanna write this new book?

Maria Malik: I wanted to write this book because [00:52:00] I've now been working with especially introverts and entrepreneurs- Mm-hmm ... executives for six years, and I've, I felt like I had such a wealth of knowledge, and from a different lens. It's called The Introverted Speaker because we do operate and perform and do our presentations and everything very different than extroverts.

So- I wanted people to, first of all, understand that you're, there's nothing wrong with you. And I think that's something Hala a lot of introverts think. Like, "What is wrong with me? Why can't I do it?"

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So I wanted a book for introverts that they can read, that they can see themselves in, that they can learn, and they could kind of get started in that process.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Because, yeah, there are a lot of books out there, but I don't ever see it from a perspective of how the introvert thinks.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: So that's why I created this book.

Hala Taha: A couple more hacks before we go. I want to talk about tonality. Uh, I've noticed that I've got some star employees that they end every sentence with uptalk.

Maria Malik: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: And then I feel like it's hard for people to pay attention to them. They don't sound as smart or [00:53:00] authoritative- Yeah ... especially in front of clients.

Maria Malik: Yeah.

Hala Taha: How can somebody improve uptalk or know that they do it, and what are your suggestions in terms of, like, tonality?

Maria Malik: Yeah. First of all, tonality is so important.

People don't realize this. Can I give an example for this? Yeah. So when I was in university, I had two classes at 8:00 AM, one on Monday, one on Tuesday. So one of them a, was about world politics, and one of them was about English. So I went to both of these classes, and I was so excited for the world politics because I was like, you know, it's like, it's more interesting.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Um, both classes started off with completely full seats, and as the semester went by, the world politics class was completely empty by the end of it. And the other class, you would actually see people, like extra students show up and sit on the seat.

Hala Taha: Oh my God.

Maria Malik: And we're just talking about, like, English literature.

So the biggest difference that I saw between both professors was their delivery and their tonality. The world politics professor would be like, "Good morning, everyone. Today we're gonna talk about..." So people were falling asleep 'cause you, he had that monotone. The other professor would make everything sound [00:54:00] so interesting, and his volume would go up.

Mm-hmm. And he would really exaggerate words, and he would end sentences on a downward, um, trajectory, so it felt more heavy. So that's what I mean when it comes to, like, how important tonality is. It's makes a difference between people actually stay interested and listen to you versus zone out and fall asleep.

So couple of things you could do. I know it took me a while to get to the answer, but couple of things you could do. Number one, increase your volume when you first start speaking. Bring it down as you're finishing your sentence. Then bring it up again. So change up your volume. That's number one. Number two, exaggerate some words.

Some things do carry more weight in that sentence. Mm-hmm. So figure out what that is. It could be, "And we did this," or, uh, "Communication is so important." You see how instead of me just saying, "Communication is so important," communication is so important.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: That so carries so much weight.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: And then lastly, your pace.

Sometimes when you're saying something important, really slow it down. Sometimes, "Hala, let's speed this up a little bit so we can get [00:55:00] through it," you know? Yeah. So change up your pace as well. These are the three most important things when it comes to tonality that's gonna make you sound less monotone and more interesting.

Hala Taha: Now, something that I know that you always talk about is you don't wanna change people's personalities. You're not like, "Hey, you're introverted. We need to make you extroverted now." Yes. How do you deal with, like, people who don't have a lot of charisma naturally or are just boring to listen to?

Maria Malik: Just boring to listen to.

Yeah. Um, so okay. I'm so glad you brought this up. We were talking about this yesterday. There are speaker archetypes out there. So that means you don't have to be like every other speaker. I'll give you some examples of a very popular speaker, Tony Robbins. Everyone knows Tony Robbins. He is the archetype I like to call the energizer.

Mm. He's got full energy. His body language is great. He motivates people. That's his strength. Not all of us can be that way- Yeah ... especially introverts- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we have lower energy. So I, for example, I am the archetype the, the teacher. I'm great at taking complex ideas, simplifying them so that [00:56:00] people really understand them and retain that information, so I lean into that more.

I'm not trying to be like Tony Robbins. I'm the thinker. And someone that's a think- um, sorry, the teacher, is Marie Forleo. Mm-hmm. She's great.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So I lean more towards the type of things that she does.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Maria Malik: And then with you, Hala, can I tell you what I think you are? Yeah, what do you

Hala Taha: think I am?

Maria Malik: Okay. You are something I like to call the archetype the commander.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: Okay? An example of that is Mel Robbins. She is a commander, direct, to the point, very kind of polished. Um, and your strengths are that you can really show people that you know what you're talking about without overpowering them. So you're the commander, and you're leaning into that more and more, which is great.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: And this is the difference between when you get up there and you see, like, someone speaking and you tell them, you, you think, "Wow, this is a great speaker," it's because they're leaning into their archetype.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So there's eight different archetypes. Figure out which one yours is. Lean into that.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: That's what's gonna make you- look so much more genuine and not like everybody else out there.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Well, I'm sure everybody tuning in [00:57:00] wants to learn more from you, so where should they go?

Maria Malik: I would definitely say start with my book, The Introverted Speaker. You can get it at www.theintrovertedspeaker.com.

And start reading the book because I talk about fears in there, we talk about all this stuff in there. And of course, if you figure out what your archetype is, send me a message. Let me know what it is. I'd love to know. On Instagram, on LinkedIn, I'm, I'm trying to be everywhere.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Speaking of LinkedIn, this is where I wanted to go next.

So we actually started becoming friends online first. Yeah. So we're both LinkedIn influencers. I think, how many followers do you have now?

Maria Malik: Like 253,000.

Hala Taha: Ah. Yeah. I got you by like- ... 55,000 or something. I'm at like 300-something thousand.

Maria Malik: Awesome.

Hala Taha: LinkedIn changed my life, and I think LinkedIn changed your life, too.

Maria Malik: Oh, yeah.

Hala Taha: What kind of opportunities arose from starting your personal brand on LinkedIn for you?

Maria Malik: Yeah. Wow, that's a big question, and I want to answer that. Before that, I do want to say that, Hala, remember I was telling you this? When I joined [00:58:00] LinkedIn, I would see you and I would be like, "I wanna be like Hala one day."

I was literally like, 'cause I had zero followers at this time.

Hala Taha: And I was like, "Who the hell is this new girl on LinkedIn?"

Maria Malik: You know what I loved about you, Hala? I loved that you were, like, such a powerful woman, but you were still so feminine. You used to dress up, and you were still like, "Hey, guys." Like, it was still you.

I loved that. And you were still such a powerhouse. So you were literally my inspiration-

Hala Taha: Aw ...

Maria Malik: when I started LinkedIn. And the fact that I'm sitting here with you today, like, blows my mind, blows my mind. But LinkedIn has completely changed my life. First of all, I left corporate, and I started to market on LinkedIn so I didn't have to get a job again.

I became my own boss. I get opportunities till this day. As I was coming here, I was getting a podcast opportunity, "Hey, Maria, we'd love to have you on my, on our podcast. Would you be interested?" It's opened up doors for me that I never even thought was possible.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: So when I say it's changed my life, like, I, like, I can't even explain how it did it, because it's taken me from [00:59:00] working in corporate to starting my own business to now being on the most amazing stages to meeting the most amazing people to working with people that I wanna work with, making my own schedule, and it's so rewarding at the end of the day.

Hala Taha: It is. So- LinkedIn did similar things for me. Like, it enabled me to be an entrepreneur, to grow my podcast, to have, like, career insurance. Even if I decide to shut down YAP Media today, I could get a job in two seconds because I have so much social proof on my LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. Over 300,000 followers, known as a marketing and podcast and social media ex- I feel like I could get a job tomorrow at, like, Spotify if I- Exactly

really wanted to, you know?

Maria Malik: And you've created your own brand, Hala. Yeah. Nobody can take that from you.

Hala Taha: And I can start a new business-

Maria Malik: Exactly ...

Hala Taha: because I have this brand.

Maria Malik: Yeah.

Hala Taha: Something I like about LinkedIn is that- It really evens the playing fields.

Maria Malik: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Like, I have as, just as much reach as Alex Hormozi and Mel Robbins and Gary Vee.

I- Same thing with you, Maria. We have just as [01:00:00] much reach as these mega business influencers on LinkedIn. Exactly. And we compete with those big dogs, even though on Instagram and TikTok we're still growing. But there's just, like, less competition because people are sleeping on LinkedIn.

Maria Malik: Exactly. I will also say this, Hala, me being good at communication skills is what helped, like, push me to that level, too.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: Because communication skills also show up, of course, like on camera- Yeah ... on video, in your writing.

Hala Taha: Yep.

Maria Malik: So I blew up. The time that I blew up, I was writing a lot of my posts.

Hala Taha: And you went from, like, 2,000 to, like, 50,000 or something in, like, five months or something, right? Oh, I'm- Or 100,000.

Maria Malik: 100,000 in 5.5 months.

I'll never forget that. So

Hala Taha: you went from 2,000 to 100,000 in, like, five

Maria Malik: months. Five months. Five months.

Hala Taha: Wow.

Maria Malik: It was mind-blowing. It was mind-blowing, and it's all because I knew how to write. I knew how to connect with my audience. Mm-hmm. My, I was using my communication skills in writing.

Hala Taha: It's so true. It's like, because when you are actually writing your s- back then we had no AI.

Maria Malik: Yeah,

Hala Taha: exactly. So we were writing it ourselves. We weren't using- It was all in here ... like, all [01:01:00] these tools to, like, fake it.

Maria Malik: Yeah.

Hala Taha: We were writing it ourselves, and there was, like, lots of emotion attached to it, and LinkedIn really was, like, more of a writing platform, but me and you also were doing lives a lot.

We were. I used to do so many Q&A lives, and that really helped me, like, think on my feet, like- Mm-hmm ... and, like, get those reps in, like we were talking about before, were those live sessions. And I know you did that a lot, too.

Maria Malik: I did. I was doing them every week. It perfected my craft. It helped me reach a larger audience.

Again, some- someone that was afraid of public speaking is now doing these things, and I knew I had to get better at public speaking communication in order to make it in life. And I know if somebody ever asks me now, "Maria, what's that one skill that everyone should get better at?" I will always hands down say communication.

Hala Taha: Mm. Well, I've got something special to announce to everybody. I actually just launched a program on school.

Maria Malik: Ooh, yay.

Hala Taha: Called the LinkedIn Creator Club.

Maria Malik: Amazing.

Hala Taha: And basically, I am teaching people how to grow on LinkedIn. Because just like it [01:02:00] changed my life, it changed your life, I wanna help change lives and help people grow on LinkedIn.

So you can find it on school. Just look it up, LinkedIn Creator Club, or look up my name, Hala Taha. And it's just $97 a month. Oh my God. Which is way more affordable. My other class used to be, like, $2,000 for two days.

Maria Malik: I would hop on that right away. 'Cause Hala knows what she's talking

Hala Taha: about. I'm trying to get, like, volume this time, you know?

Like, let's get hundreds of students. Let's make this as accessible. I'm gonna show up and do webinars all the time, teach people.

Maria Malik: I'm

Hala Taha: gonna join. Gonna bring my friends. Yeah. I'm gonna join right now. I'm gonna bring my friends, like Maria. So while we're on it, like, what would you say was the number one reason why you were able to grow from 2,000 followers to 100,000 followers in less than six months?

Maria Malik: Storytelling.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: Yeah, definitely. And as a communicator, you have to be able to tell stories. As a business owner, you have to tell stories. As an executive, you should be able to tell stories. And I'll tell you this, Hala, I, I do have a powerful story, but I also see a lot of powerful stories on LinkedIn, like people are talking about them, and they're not [01:03:00] getting any views.

They're not getting likes. It's because you have to know how to put it all together-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Maria Malik: and really connect it to your audience and to your message. So it was definitely storytelling and being able to say, like, articulate my, my thoughts, what's in here onto paper-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Maria Malik: and for other people to understand.

Once you can do that- Game over

Hala Taha: Yeah Game

Maria Malik: over.

Hala Taha: And something, advice that I give my students is I have them create a story journal.

Maria Malik: Mm.

Hala Taha: You should do this with your clients if you don't.

Maria Malik: Okay.

Hala Taha: Where basically it's like, okay, we've got childhood, uh, even like family, like generational history, right? Like, I talk about like being Palestinian or whatever.

Family, childhood, high school, college, jobs. Like, have you ever gotten fired? Did you ever get divorced? Were you fat and you lost weight? Like, what are all the challenges you've been through, all the failures? Write them down- Yeah ... because it's so easy to forget all... Y- When somebody like wants to invite me on a podcast, my first thought is like, "Well, I don't have anything to say."

And then I'm like, "Wait a second." Like, "Let me go look at my story journal. I've got a [01:04:00] million stories." You know? Yeah. You really wanna think about your stories, and it's really easy to think that you have no stories. But people relate in the most simple things. Like, you wanna be relatable, and a lot of the stories that happen to you probably happen to other people, like getting fired or whatever it is.

Maria Malik: Yeah. And I think sometimes... Okay, I had this one person, I was on stage the other day, and she was like, "Maria, I feel so uncomfortable sharing my story." And I was like, "You know, the more vulnerable you are, the more people connect with you." And I'm like, "Why wouldn't you want to find your tribe?" So the more you talk about your stories, the more the right people will find you.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So it's okay to be vulnerable. I told the most personal story on LinkedIn, and look at where it got me.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: I-

Hala Taha: Right? Should we talk about it?

Maria Malik: We can, sure.

Hala Taha: So you actually were, uh, had an arranged marriage when you were 17.

Maria Malik: I wa- I did, yeah.

Hala Taha: Damn.

Maria Malik: When I was 17 years old, my parents took me back to Pakistan and got me to a ma- married to a man I didn't know.

Wow. Um, 17. Wow. I didn't even finish high school at this time. And I [01:05:00] know for a fact that that is something that created this fire in me- Mm-hmm ... to be successful- Mm-hmm ... to be all that. So the story was just, yeah, they took me back. I was in this arranged marriage. It was forced. I had no... I couldn't say no.

Even when I tried to say no, my father was like, "Well, if you don't marry him, then I'm not your father anymore." Imagine at 17- Wow ... in Pakistan, a new world for me. Um, so I really struggled. I was left there. I had to figure out-

Hala Taha: Your parents moved back to Canada.

Maria Malik: Yeah. Wow. I was there by myself. Um, and while I was there, you know, I was struggling.

Like, I didn't speak the language that well. Um, I didn't connect with the culture, 'cause I grew up in Canada, and I wanted nothing more but to come back. Um, what's interesting is Hala, while I was there, um, I found this author, Sidney Sheldon.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: And I started reading his books. It was the only English books that I found, and every single one of his books was about a woman going through some type of struggle, and then somehow in the end she becomes this big entrepreneur or a lawyer or something.

And I feel like that really embedded in me somehow. So I was like, "I need [01:06:00] to get back. Get back to Canada." Um, so I found my way back in the way, like, I was visiting at one point, and when I came back, I was like, "I'm not going back to Pakistan ever again." Because not to get into the details, but there was a lot of stuff happening there.

I just wasn't where I was supposed to be. I was-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Maria Malik: miserable. So when I came back, I really fought to go to high school and finish high school. Then I really fought my culture, the Pakistani community, to go to university, and I had to fight so hard to get a divorce, 'cause back then it was so taboo. It was just like, "Nope, you're not getting a divorce."

Mm-hmm. He could hit you, he could cheat on you, it doesn't matter what he's doing. You cannot get a divorce. So I was here breaking all cultural norms- Yeah, you broke- All cultural boundaries ... You're the

Hala Taha: first, uh, woman in your family to go to college, and-

Maria Malik: First woman to go to college. I was the first woman to get a job.

I was the first woman to travel the world. I'm the first woman right now who's living on my own. First woman in my family to do every- start a business. I'm hoping to become the first millionaire woman in my [01:07:00] family. And honestly, it wa- it was tough, but the lesson here is, like, if I can do it, 'cause I was just a girl growing up in Scarborough, Toronto.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: If I could get this far, then anyone can, right? You just really have to want it for yourself and believe in yourself.

Hala Taha: And it's funny, like the thing that really scarred you when you were younger helped propel your personal brand. It was that- Exactly ... telling of that story- Mm-hmm ... on LinkedIn, and it kinda went viral It

Maria Malik: got 20 million views

Hala Taha: Wow.

Maria Malik: And I was like, "Oh my God." I was like, "Great.

Hala Taha: The whole world knows "- It was probably really scary because you probably were thinking like, "My family's gonna disown me for- Mm-hmm ... sharing this publicly."

Maria Malik: Yeah.

Hala Taha: Was that hard?

Maria Malik: It was. I remember when I started to go viral, I w- it was like a million views, two million views.

I'm like, "Oh, God." I'm like, "Should I delete this?" I was literally, "Should I delete this?" I literally remember, I just turned my laptop off. I went into bed, and I'm like in my blanket, I'm like, "Great. What have I done?" Um, and the next day I [01:08:00] got a call from my mom. She's like, oh, her friend called her and said she saw your post.

Um, and you know, by then, my family, because I had gone through so much with them already, they had accepted it. They're like, "Maria, go ahead, tell your story. It's fine." So by then we had built such a good relationship- That's great ... um, that they were accepting of it, and I think that's why we're at such a good place now.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: But I got, for the most part, a lot of support for it. There was some like, "Hey, why are you making the Pakistani community look bad?" Or, "This isn't about religion, this is this." Like, just so much back and forth, but you know what? Yeah. It liberated me, Hala.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: Because this is something I was carrying with me.

It's like, as like guilt somehow, like it was my fault that I went through that.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: It really liberated me, and after that I felt like I could do anything.

Hala Taha: I love that.

Maria Malik: It's like- I was like, "I can do anything now-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Maria Malik: if I've been able to overcome this."

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So it was the most powerful thing I did for myself.

Hala Taha: And I feel like it's a good learning lesson for anybody out there who's just went through something really difficult. If you feel comfortable enough, sharing your story could really help [01:09:00] propel your personal brand on whatever social platform you wanna get started on. Like, I remember I actually had a client, Stephanie Malik, who I grew her LinkedIn super huge, and she was homeless.

And she was afraid- Oh ... to tell the story. She was homeless when she was younger, and now she's like this like super successful lady. I know her. And that sto- Oh, you know Stephanie Malik? Yeah. Yeah. So she went viral so many times-

Maria Malik: Wow ...

Hala Taha: from telling that story. And when it comes to per- your personal brand, something you have to remember is you wanna tell those stories over and over again.

Mm-hmm. You don't share it once. You basically are rinsing and repeating 40 stories a thousand times each over and over again in different ways.

Maria Malik: Here's a fun fact, okay? Yeah. So I told my story the first time in January, and it got one or two million views. And then my coach told me, "Tell it again, Maria.

Say it again." I'm like, "No, no, no, no. The one, two million was fine." I- I think back then my family didn't hear about it.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: The second time I told it, I, the exact same story I posted the second time it got 20 million views. Yeah. And that's when I started getting the phone calls. That's when, um, I had Toronto Life Magazine reach out to me- Yeah

and say, "Hey, [01:10:00] we wanna write a memoir about your life." That's when it really exploded. So like you said, yes, telling it over and over again- Yeah ... because sometimes it doesn't reach the right people.

Hala Taha: And to your point, it's like once something gets traction, you know that it hit a button. You know that it resonated.

So it's like, how do you change the hook? How do you change the format? How do you just keep repeating the thing that- got people excited and commenting and having a conversation so that you can keep going viral over and over again. Exactly. It's like it's the trial real strategy nowadays. It is. Right?

Rinse and repeat.

Maria Malik: Yeah, and it's fun. I feel like everyone should experience going viral once, because the stuff that happens behind the scenes that people don't see, like the, the messages that you get from people. I got so many messages, Hala, from men and women saying, "Thank you so much for talking about this, because my sister's going through this," or, "I went through this, and I was so ashamed, and I felt like my life was over."

Hala Taha: Yeah. "

Maria Malik: And you talking about it is making me realize, wait a second, there's still so much more out there for me."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: Yeah. So it, it does, it, it touches a lot of people.

Hala Taha: Now me and you kind of have like a moat on LinkedIn. We're kind of [01:11:00] like spoiled- ... where I feel like we don't, we want to grow on LinkedIn, but now me and you are both like, how do we grow?

We're comfortable. Yeah, we're comfortable because we have like a mo- It's, it's very unusual to have, like, almost 300,000 followers on LinkedIn. There's really not that much competition. So me and you are kind of continuing to grow LinkedIn, but we're really focused on Instagram these days. Do you

Maria Malik: know how humbling it was coming from LinkedIn- I know, we're like the-

to like Instagram where I'm like- I know, no- ... with my two followers.

Hala Taha: Exactly. Well, you have 20,000 now, so good for you. Yeah, I'm getting

Maria Malik: there. But you see how, like, learning everything on LinkedIn help, is helping me grow on- Yeah ... Instagram because I've developed that skill. You're growing really fast.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: It's, it's all about skill. So I, I would say start with one, um, one social media platform first. Yeah. I know some people say go in on, on all. I

Hala Taha: did the same thing. I can't do that. I focused on LinkedIn first, and it, it helped us. It gave us leverage. We were able to, like, quit our jobs, start a business, gain an audience.

Maria Malik: Hire people to help you.

Hala Taha: Create courses. Like, whatever we needed to do to make money. And then now we can, like, invest [01:12:00] in growing on the other platforms, which-

Maria Malik: Absolutely ...

Hala Taha: we

Maria Malik: are. Yeah.

Hala Taha: Slowly but surely- It's getting there. ... I'm growing on Instagram, YouTube, and all the other platforms, but

Maria Malik: yeah. Yeah. I love it.

I'm, I'm, I, I loved that humbleness that I had to, like, adapt to, 'cause I'm like, "Okay, Maria, how do we do this all over again?" 'Cause it's fun. Every time you go viral, it's like it's fun.

Hala Taha: Yeah, it's like new excitement. Well, Maria, this was such an awesome conversation. I feel like we touched so many different topics.

I really appreciate you coming on. So, uh, where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

Maria Malik: Sure. I mean, I would love for them to connect with me on LinkedIn, Maria Malik, on Instagram, MariaMalikSpeaks. Of course, check out my book also, theintrovertedspeaker.com. Um, I'm, like, I, when I say, Hala, I love this work I do.

Like, I found my thing.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Maria Malik: And I feel so blessed to have been able to do that. Like, I genuinely enjoy doing this work. So if you want to tell me about your stories, please send them to me. I love hearing about them. And yeah, just connect with me. I, there's so much I post out there, and I genuinely, at the end, end of the day, do want to help people.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Maria Malik: Especially [01:13:00] introverts.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Maria Malik: So yeah, definitely connect with me.

Hala Taha: Cool. If you're an introverted communicator, that's your girl, Maria Malik.

Maria Malik: Yes, exactly.

Hala Taha: Thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting podcast.

Maria Malik: Thank you so much for having me, Hala. This was so much fun. I loved it.

Hala Taha: Young Improfters, most people think communication is a soft skill, but after this conversation with Maria, I think we all don't see it that way anymore.

Because you can be incredible at what you do, you can be so super talented, but if you can't clearly communicate your value, people may never recognize your expertise. Maria calls out the invisible tax of poor communication. Nobody's gonna tell you that you lost a sale, the investment, or the job opportunity because you sounded insecure, unsure, or you couldn't get to the point.

They'll probably just move on without giving you any feedback. And what I loved about Maria's approach is that becoming a stronger communicator doesn't mean you have to change. You don't have to become an extrovert. You don't have to become a different person or performative. In fact, sometimes trying too hard, trying to sound too perfect [01:14:00] or somebody that you're not can work against you.

So instead of memorizing every word, try to understand your message deeply. Like Maria suggested, you can talk through your presentation with a close friend or use skeleton notes to just keep yourself on track and talk naturally. You still prepare, but you leave enough room to actually connect with the people listening so you can pay attention to their body language and adjust your presentation accordingly And I actually experienced some of this firsthand with the live coaching.

As soon as I stopped trying to make everything perfect and I gave myself to be natural, to talk authentically, to speak from my heart, Maria actually said I was more authoritative. And this was so interesting to me, because confidence is not really about being perfect. It's just about being comfortable enough to pause, to say exactly what you mean, and to actually know when you're done, and to tie up with a really solid close.

And that can be easier said than done, especially for those of us that know a lot about certain topics. That's Maria's expert [01:15:00] trap, like she likes to call it. The more you know about something, the more tempted you are to give people every single detail and piece of context. But that knowledge can actually make you harder to follow and less engaging.

And Maria's PRI framework helps us improve that. Point, reason, impact. Give people the answer first, explain the reasoning behind it, then tell them why it matters. Simple. And if you want to improve, don't just keep doing more speaking engagements. Don't just assume repetition is gonna make you better.

Maria says the reps that count are the ones that you review. I love that advice. So watch yourself, get your feedback, and then make an adjustment before your next rep. So yeah, fam, whether you're pitching a meeting or stepping on stage, focus on making your expertise easy for other people to recognize with all the tips that you learned from Maria.

Young and Profitable-ers, thank you so much for joining us today. And if somebody came to mind who knows their stuff but struggles to communicate it, make sure you send them this episode. Maria also coached me in real time [01:16:00] during this interview, so if you wanna watch it, you definitely can. And exciting news, YAP is now streaming on video on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

You can also come say hi to me on YAP with Hala on Instagram, X, or TikTok. That's @YAPwithHala. And I'm also on LinkedIn. Just search for my name. It's Hala Taha. Before I go, a huge thank you to our amazing listeners. You guys support us so much. In fact, we just won another award in the podcast industry, the W3 award.

So keep liking, sharing, commenting, and reviewing, and I'll keep bringing you conversations that help you learn and profit in every area of your life. Until next time, this is your host, Hala Taha, AKA the Podcast Princess, signing off

Katie Diasti: [00:00:00] We thought we had six months of inventory of our tampons, like ready to go in stock. We sold through it in three weeks.

Hala Taha: Oh my God.

Katie Diasti: And it was wild. We actually had an over 3,000 person wait list to get our next batch of tampons. Like, talk about thinking it was funny to like pre-order pads. We were like, "Now we have a wait list for tampons?

Like, this is wild."

Hala Taha: Oh my God. My guest is Katie Diasti, founder and CEO of Viv. Katie turned a college class project into a period care brand generating more than $3 million in revenue this year.

Katie Diasti: This year we'll do about, like, 3 to 4 million. We've grown 3X year over year for the past several years now.

Wow. Across the board we still have, like, an over 70% margin across SKUs. Oh,

Hala Taha: wow.

Katie Diasti: And I think that's essential as a brand, and it's almost like a death wish to not have high enough margins- Mm-hmm ... because- So you did your first product run at $3,500. How did you get your first customer? Before our product even arrived, I brought samples and empty [00:01:00] boxes, and I sold pre-orders of pads that hadn't even existed yet.

Recently we just closed our seed round of 2 million, and now we're profitable. We had all this traction. And how has starting on Amazon actually helped you then enter retail? I think Amazon is, like, a requirement for being in retail doors successfully. Mm. I think it's very risky and actually bad practice to try to launch in retail doors without-

Hala Taha: What's up, my young and profiting family?

I'm coming to you from Amazon's annual seller conference in Seattle, where I'm sitting down with entrepreneurs who are building and scaling businesses in Amazon's store. This episode is part of our Amazon seller three-part miniseries on how we profit, our weekly format where real entrepreneurs share real numbers, real margins, and the real story of how their businesses actually works.

My guest is Katie Diasti, founder and CEO of Viv. And today we're breaking down how she built a [00:02:00] physical product business with very little capital, and how selling in Amazon's store is helping Viv grow more efficiently with a lean team. Let's get into it. Katie, welcome to How We Profit.

Katie Diasti: Thanks. Excited to be here.

Hala Taha: I am so looking forward to this conversation. You are just so inspiring. It's so cool to me that you started this as a school project in college and turned it into a real company that's selling on Amazon. To kick us off, what is Viv? What do you exactly sell?

Katie Diasti: So Viv is a better for you, better for the planet period care brand.

We really think of Viv as that cool big sister that you need in your life to help guide you through all of your menstruating years.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. But

Katie Diasti: also that fun new pop in the aisle that this category has needed for a really long time.

Hala Taha: Yeah. So basically, it's period products, and so you're selling tampons, and what are all the different products you're selling?

Katie Diasti: Yes. Yeah, so we make pads that are biodegradable and bamboo-based. We make 100% organic cotton tampons, and we have a new [00:03:00] technology. It's the safest tampon on the market. And then we make menstrual cups and discs that are all easier to use.

Hala Taha: Mm. It's so important what you're doing because for so many years we were sticking up crazy things.

Yeah. Like with tampons and, and like organic tampons, it's organic cotton. I feel like that's very important for women's health. Why was that so important to you, like innovating- Yeah ... in this space?

Katie Diasti: I was always really interested in like hygiene brands- Mm-hmm ... and how a lot of beauty and wellness and hygiene brands spoke to women.

And I felt like it was in a lens of like thriving off our insecurities, and I've always been very passionate about women's health. I have a lot of people in the medical field in my family, and was like just trying to reduce plastic waste in my own life, and seeing so many fun things in like the food and beverage aisle, and I was so cautious of like what I was consuming.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Katie Diasti: But realized in like one of the most sensitive, absorbent parts of my body, like I just didn't care [00:04:00] or know about what products I was using. Mm. Um, and so when I was going down the period aisle, I would always feel like so anxious and awkward and would try to get out of there so fast. Yeah. And so I wanted to really rewrite that narrative for, for young people, but for everyone.

Mm-hmm. And to make like having a period a more fun experience than what we've known for so long. Um, and learning that like traditional period care has the same toxins you'd find in Roundup weed killer. It contains-

Hala Taha: Oh my God ...

Katie Diasti: so much plastic waste. Like a regular pad can take 800 years to break down. Oh my gosh.

And n- we didn't know that.

Hala Taha: Yeah. It's bad for you, and it's bad for the environment.

Katie Diasti: Yes, exactly.

Hala Taha: Take us back to Boston College- Mm-hmm ... when you first thought of this idea. You were doing like a college project, an entrepreneurship class or something like that.

Katie Diasti: Yes.

Hala Taha: Tell us about that.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. It was a classic like entrepreneurship class.

I did not know anything really about entrepreneurship at the time. I had a full-time corporate job, like ready to go, s- offer signed in fall of [00:05:00] my senior year because- I was in an undergrad business school, and I thought that's what you had to do, 'cause I saw all of my peers around me doing that, and I was like, "Oh my God.

Crap, I gotta get a job-" Mm ... 'cause everyone has a job so early. Yeah. And just signed the first job offer I had. And then I was in this class, and it was very much find a problem and come up with a solution for it. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was, you know, branding, marketing student in the business school. I loved- studying brands and how they could, like, start to be the voice of people when, like, other things in our world were not.

And I was also volunteering, um, several nights a week at a women's shelter in the Boston area, and one of my many roles there was passing out pads and tampons to women that came in. And so I was very passionate around, like, menstrual equity, who had access to period care, and, like, what that does to our lives, and, like, how that can help women, like, thrive and go to school and, like, do so many things- Mm-hmm

um, which was so important to, like, me and my, my story. Um, and so I was like, okay, a problem, all these- learning about all the issues with period care, the toxins, the plastic waste, and that [00:06:00] everything was hideous, and I wanted to hide it under my bathroom sink.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Katie Diasti: I just thought, what a fun idea for a class project.

Like, let me build a period care brand that has all the things I've ever dreamed of- Yeah ... in one. And then I became so obsessed with it. I was doing extensive research. I would go to my old marketing research professors and, like, build out surveys with all the tools we had on a campus. I would host, like, period market research parties in my dorm.

And we'd-

Hala Taha: Mm. Period parties.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. They were literal period parties. And would have my friends, like, talk in a circle about all the things they hated about their products- Mm ... and, like, really became an expert on period care and, like, what people wanted. And I gave my final, and I, I... My professor was incredible.

She brought in all these entrepreneurs from the Boston area that I looked up to, and they gave us all this feedback. And I was, like, writing down all the notes, even though I should've been done, like, off senior spring, like, whatever. And I was like, "I'm not done with this." Like, there was something in me that was like, "I need to keep doing this in [00:07:00] some way," and here we are many, many years later.

Hala Taha: So you never took that job?

Katie Diasti: I re- nope. I reneged my offer before I even got there. Amazing. Um, pushed my start date back, like, four times and was like, "No, I'm all in."

Hala Taha: So we were talking offline that you're Egyptian.

Katie Diasti: Yes.

Hala Taha: How did your family take the news that you're like, "I'm star-" Uh, like, out of all, it's, like, bad enough that you're not becoming a doctor, right?

Right.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. My brother's a doctor, too.

Hala Taha: Yeah. All my siblings are do- I know how it is. But then you're like, "I'm gonna start a period care brand," and they're probably like, "Ugh," like, there's a word in Arabic, clasp, which means, like-

Katie Diasti: Yeah ... "That's embarrassing" Yes, and it was horrible about it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's one of the things that fueled me is, like, I was taught that they were like, "This isn't something you talk about."

Mm-hmm. "It's shameful." And I was like, "Wait, no, it's not." And it's so interesting. I'm, I'm first gen, like my, my, I'm the first one born in the US of my family. And you know, growing up it was like, "Okay, what stable career path are you gonna have?" Because we just risked so much- Mm-hmm ... to, like, come to this co- op- country and, like, give opportunity for [00:08:00] you.

Yeah. And it's been so fascinating because my mom's a veterinarian. She raised me as a single mom for most of my life, and my grandma, um, helped raise us, too, and my grandma was actually not allowed to go to school just because she was a girl in, like, her little village in Egypt. Oh, man. Their whole thing is like education- Mm-hmm

is freedom. And- Yep ... if you can help educate people and you get educated, you can, like, do anything in life, right? Mm-hmm. And so that's always been, like, something so instilled in me. But then they saw how hard I was working, and- My mom was like, "You know what? I couldn't do stuff like that. Like, I didn't have the privilege to, like try to start a company- Mm

because it was so risky." Um, and she was like, "But I'm giving you that privilege to do it." I love that. "So go live the dream I couldn't," right? Mm-hmm. And it's like they're my biggest cheerleaders ever. It's like my- That's so good ... they're the best.

Hala Taha: Something that's so inspiring to me about your story is, is how little startup capital you actually had.

I think you started the business with, like $3,500 or $5,000- Yes ... or [00:09:00] something like that. Yeah. Talk to us about the first bit of money that you got, what you did with it, and how you made it work.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. So a few days after I graduated from Boston College, I jumped into an accelerator program, and we got $5,000 to build a company, which, you know, that...

This was 2019, so today it's... You can't really do a lot with 5K- Yeah ... um, especially in a product-based business. But

Hala Taha: in 2019, that was not that long ago.

Katie Diasti: Yeah, yeah, it really wasn't. And I was like, "Okay, what can I do with literally nothing?" And I think it really built in me a lot of, like discipline-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm

Katie Diasti: and really understanding all of my numbers, knowing where every cent goes in our business- Mm-hmm ... and, like truly understanding what it was like to have to build a profitable company. Yes. Um, and I think in entrepreneurship you have to be really comfortable with, like not following the rules- Mm-hmm ... and not following the status quo, and that was because I had to, right?

Like, I didn't have the money to just, like, "Okay, that's the price. Here you go." It was [00:10:00] having to get so creative, and- Mm ... I would be negotiating with manufacturers as, like a recent college grad that knew nothing- ... about building a CPG brand. And s- they're like, "Okay, our minimum quantity is a million units per absorbency of tampon."

And I was like, "Well, how about you give me a few hundred and I try it out?" And we just had to get so creative, and, um, I think that made us better- Mm-hmm ... as a business, of how scrappy we were. And it also led us to content and building community first. Mm. I went to every event, pop-up, market, farmers market show in the Boston area that had the word, like women, brand, anything like that in the title.

So I was like, "Okay, a potential customer is there, and they can learn about my story, and they can learn about Viv and then find Viv one day- Mm ... and hopefully stores," which now we're in. And I took that, like scrappy grassroots approach, um, when first starting.

Hala Taha: [00:11:00] Yeah, that's so smart. It's like basically when you are constrained, it actually makes you think more creatively.

Yeah. And I know a lot of founders, like I interview founders all the time. I find that people who get investment before they have sales, they have this, like inflated sense, and they end up spending a lot. They end up hiring more than they need to hire, or not killing products fast enough, or not being scrappy like you- Ah

like in terms of, like negotiating because it's like they have the money so they don't negotiate as much. So I think that was probably something that really- helped you early on. Yeah. I'd love for you to tell us this story. Uh, get, like, really concrete with it. Your first product run, how much it was supposed to cost- Mm

and how you got away with doing it for so little.

Katie Diasti: So the first product we ever launched was our pads, and that was something that was really important to me because I was, like, a go-to pad user for so much of my life, and I hated the ones that existed.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Katie Diasti: And that was, like, my main mission, was, like, find a better pad.

I was studying all these fibers. And we [00:12:00] realized, like, bamboo is a really great fiber. Mm. It, like, reduces a lot of agro waste. It grows fast naturally, but it's also softer and more absorbent, so it makes so much sense for something like a pad.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Katie Diasti: And I was going to all these different manufacturing partners, and they were like, "Okay, if you want a custom, um, label or branding on your pad, that's gonna be another higher MOQ."

Mm. "If you want boxes, that's another higher..." And then I was like, what if I bought Like, bulk product and, like, bound boxes and had them packed myself so I can control the MOQ. What's an MOQ? So an MOQ is a minimum order quantity, and the MOQs in our category are really, really high. They're used to working with bigger players.

It could be hundreds of thousands to a million units, like per- Mm ... type of absorbency in our space. And so we knew we had to get really creative, and we were able to do so with our first run being $3,500. And I thought that was a crazy amount

Hala Taha: of money. So you just got, like, the pads, and then you were, like- Yes

packing up pads in boxes

Katie Diasti: to [00:13:00] start. Yes. I had, like, 25 case boxes arrive at my apartment, um, and wa- it was a little walk-up in Boston. My cousin came over and helped me carry them all up the stairs, and I got all these boxes, and we hand-packed them into boxes, and that was our first ever product that we sold.

And I, I shipped every product out of my little apartment for, like, the first six months.

Hala Taha: Incredible story.

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: So talk to me about where you went from there. So you did your first product run at $3,500. How did you get your first customer?

Katie Diasti: I went to these farmers markets in Boston to, like, try to meet everyone, and before our product even arrived, I brought samples and empty boxes and had this sign that we, like, made at Staples that said, like, sustainable period care, which at the time no one had ever heard of.

Mm. Like, that was not a thing that was talked about. It's becoming a

Hala Taha: thing now.

Katie Diasti: Yes. Now the category is exploding, which is ov- overdue and really exciting, and we're definitely seeing that, like, momentum. But in 2019, it [00:14:00] just, like, wasn't a conversation that was happening yet.

Hala Taha: Mm-mm.

Katie Diasti: Um, and some people would stop me, like, "Huh, this is interesting."

And I sold pre-orders of pads that hadn't even existed yet, and I was selling, like, hundreds of pre-orders, and that was something that was actually, like, a metric point for me to renege my job offer- Hmm ... was if I can sell, like, X amount of pre-orders, then I'll feel comfortable not going to that job. Mm.

And, um, we, like, surpassed that within, like, couple days of launching those pre-orders. So

Hala Taha: cool. So cool. Who knew that you could get pre-orders for pads?

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: For the crazy. Like, any business idea that you have that actually is solving a problem is something that's achievable, and I feel like- Yeah ... a lot of people wouldn't necessarily go that route in terms of, like, pre-orders for pads.

Yeah. But you really were getting scrappy to make sure that this would be successful.

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: So where are you distributing now? Like, walk us through your journey of, like, where you started- Yeah ... where you're going.

Katie Diasti: Yeah, things look quite a bit different now. N- now we have warehouses and 3PLs, not me [00:15:00] packing in my apartment.

Um, we are sold in 2,000 retail doors across the US. We have, um, we're sold on Amazon and our website- Mm-hmm ... direct to consumer. Um, so a very omni-channel brand. We also are sold in, like, we're available in universities, gyms, um, and have an interesting, like, B2B side of our business. But- Um, yeah, now our distribution is, like, very omni-channel.

Hala Taha: Oh my gosh. Um, you started on Amazon first, though.

Katie Diasti: Started on Amazon first. Yeah.

Hala Taha: Which is such a great case study for Amazon in terms of, like, building a brand- Yeah ... and really helping you launch that. So what made Amazon the right place for you to launch?

Katie Diasti: We realized that people were going to Amazon, one, to buy things, and that's where people go to buy things, and then two, we couldn't fulfill at the rate with just, you know, a scrappy startup team that we wanted to.

And in this category, like you need your products really fast, and you want the product fast, 'cause people aren't always planning [00:16:00] ahead- Mm-hmm ... for a period. It's like, "Oh, I have this right now." And so we knew that was gonna be an unlock for us, of like how fast can we get it into a customer's hands, which Amazon, Amazon does exceptionally well.

It gets people their products quickly.

Hala Taha: Yeah. How has Amazon helped you save money and resources through Amazon Fulfillment, which I feel like you're teasing right now?

Katie Diasti: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, being available FBA, one, it's, you know, the team capacity and the way we hire, and the way we allocate resources can be on what we do best, which is creating content, building a brand- Mm

building community, marketing, and we can leave the fulfillment and packing of orders to Amazon's team. Mm. And that has been so great for a lean team- Mm-hmm ... like ours that can like really prioritize our, what we do best.

Hala Taha: What are your biggest categories? Like, what is your bestsellers?

Katie Diasti: It's so cool, because it's actually quite different across channels- Mm

um, for us, which we love. Our cup and discs have had a [00:17:00] lot of success on Amazon.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Katie Diasti: Our product is so differentiated. Like, it has a pull tab so it's easier to take out. It has a dark color, and it's competitive on price at the same time. And so it's been really great, um, for Amazon. Yeah. 'Cause when you stock us up next to all of our legacy competitors, it's a no-brainer to pick ours.

Hala Taha: It kind of makes sense, because pads and tampons, you might want to... Like, you get them at, like, when you're going grocery shopping. Mm-hmm. It's something you need every month, right? Yes. So, you're getting it when you're like, "Oh, I'm like, you know, I should probably pick this up." Whereas the cups are more of like a longer term thing.

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: How do you see that like kind of break down, in terms of, you know, products and what you're trying to push? If, if one is repeat every month, that's obviously a lot more revenue than-

Katie Diasti: Mm ...

Hala Taha: one purchase with a cup.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. It's so interesting, 'cause it is more of like you're learning a lot about a cup or disc before you make that purchase decision.

Mm. And Amazon's a great platform for that, because you can educate so much right on that product page- Mm-hmm ... and see reviews, and see videos. And it [00:18:00] can be something where they can like learn and compare. While tampons and pads, it, you know, might take someone more to switch to a different product. Mm. But once you have...

We use a lot of subscribe and save deals, and that- Yeah ... really creates a lot more loyalty. It creates convenience for our c- shopper, and also brings that repeat revenue in, which-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Katie Diasti: is always great for a business. Um, so it's been- And I think both, but we honestly view period care more like a skincare routine.

Mm-hmm. And we have noticed that our cup and disc shoppers are still gonna need a tampon or pad once in a while, or all the time, right? Like, people are really mixing and matching to fit every cycle feels a little bit different. Every day of the cycle feels a little bit different. And we also see people, like, the first postpartum period back versus, like, needing to go to a swim meet versus a long day of meetings.

Mm. It's, you're changing it up. So- We find that when people might learn about our cup first, then they come back and will subscribe to tampons.

Hala Taha: [00:19:00] Yeah. Let's talk about education. Let's talk first about education on Amazon. I know that Amazon has this, like, A-Plus content feature-

Katie Diasti: Yeah ...

Hala Taha: and you can get really descriptive.

Katie Diasti: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Um, help us understand how you're educating people on Amazon. Like, what are the best tactics that you're using?

Katie Diasti: We really like leaning into our UGC videos and seeing what's performing well on our socials- Mm ... and then bringing that into our A-Plus content onto Amazon. And so a lot of our most viral content is simply how to use a tampon, what is a menstrual cup, how do you clean a f- menstrual cup.

Like, these very product educational, but also, like, health ed educational videos. And I think a lot of it has been our tone in videos and our approach. We wanna feel like we're, like, reaching for your hand through the screen and holding- Mm-hmm ... your hand through this process, 'cause it can always be intimidating trying something that's new in this space.

And so we get that, and we wanna make our product line and our brand feel as approachable as possible. And so getting to have that human element on a platform [00:20:00] like A- Amazon is-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Katie Diasti: really helping us win over that customer. Yeah. And we get to tell our story, right? Like, on our brand page, it's a picture of me and my founding team, like, sitting on a couch, holding our first sign.

Mm. And, like, we show you the journey and, like, who was really behind this- Yeah ... um, to show, like, the care that goes into creating the products.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And then in terms of social media, that's been huge for you. Yeah. I'd love to spend some time there. What platforms are you focused on right now, and what has been your strategy for social?

Katie Diasti: Yeah. Our, social's been amazing for us. I think it's been helpful that, like, we are our target customer, and that we get-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ... what we wanna see. Yeah, you are literally your target customer.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. And it's, and I'm really thankful for that because I wasn't afraid to, like, hop on TikTok and, like, use Instagram in a way that brands weren't in the early days.

And we were on TikTok before TikTok Shop existed. Like, we would see these, a video go viral of the cup and see those sales translate to Amazon.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Katie Diasti: [00:21:00] And we were like, "Okay, this is really interesting that, like, having off-platform, off-Amazon content can really help drive Amazon sales." Mm-hmm. And, um, we were then like, "Let's keep utilizing this," right?

Like, it doesn't, it's so native to us to just, like, pick up the camera and film a video and tell our story. And so we started doing that, but then we would get so many young people in our comment section, particularly on YouTube and TikTok were, like, two platforms that we had a, a lot of dialogue on. Mm.

Supporting each other in the comment section, which I feel like is a key sign that you have a community, right? Mm-hmm. It's like it's not only the brand talking to customer, it's the people talking to each other.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Katie Diasti: And we're really seeing that, especially on, like, how to use a tampon videos, what it's like to get your first period, and we had so many teens asking follow-up questions in the comment section, and we would just reply to those in video format and be like, "I'm here to help you."

Mm. "And I wish I had something like this [00:22:00] when I was their age, and so let's build it."

Hala Taha: So basically you're getting feedback from the conversations in the comments in terms of what content you're gonna put out next based on everybody's questions. Mm-hmm. Did you get feedback on the products you needed to launch and, and just information about- Yeah

how you should innovate your products?

Katie Diasti: We did. We got... That's actually how quite a few of our SKUs were created, were based on the comment section on our social media, um, especially around our cup and disc products because it was so new to so many people online at the time. And so many people were like, "I'm a beginner.

This is my first cup ever." Like, "I'm brand new. This video's really helpful." And we were like, wow, we are becoming, like, the beginner cup- Mm-hmm ... because it's easier to take out. It's a less intimidating. Mm. And so we actually created a whole s- um, two SKUs, the cup starter kit and the disc starter kit that has, like, a wash because we got so many questions- Mm

on how to clean the cup.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Katie Diasti: We have a storage pouch 'cause, like, can you take it with you? And then we made this, like, [00:23:00] extensive booklet how-to guide that feels like you're texting your friend that answers, like, all of our pro tips for using a cup. Like-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Katie Diasti: how, where we like to remove the cup, and we have a whole, like, how-to video page that feels like you're FaceTiming a friend- Mm-hmm

when you're using it for the first time.

Hala Taha: And it's really cool because basically, like we just mentioned, how often are people buying cups that don't use them?

Katie Diasti: Maybe once a year.

Hala Taha: And so the wash, at least they're buying something from you all the time, right? Yeah. So it gives you, like, some recurring revenue in that way.

Katie Diasti: And that was something that was really helpful- From like the Amazon's data as well, is we were able to see that so many people were buying like a basic non-PH disruptive soap to go with the cup, and they were buying a storage kit or a pouch to put it in. And they were kind of like trying to DIY what the cup starter kit is.

And we're like, wait, we can do this. Yeah. We can help them, and make sure it's like the safest, best product. Mm-hmm. And so we launched a wash to go with the cup. Mm-hmm. And that's been doing great on Amazon. And

Hala Taha: I'm [00:24:00] sure you can do bundle offers and

Katie Diasti: stuff like that. Exactly.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Katie Diasti: The whole experience.

Hala Taha: So Amazon has Seller Assistant, which gives you data analytics, and I know that you use that.

We do. So what information have you gained from Amazon to make different decisions for your business?

Katie Diasti: One of my favorite things about the Seller Assistant tools is that you can really figure out your profitability per SKU, and like really understand what SKUs need more support, which ones need more marketing and education, which ones we can double down on in terms of budget and keywords.

Mm-hmm. And it makes it much smarter of like how you're actually spending your ad dollars.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Katie Diasti: Um, which has been incredibly helpful for us. Our cup and disc SKUs are, are higher margin, and they have a, they're very profitable. Um, but we'll see higher, you know, movement velocities of tampons and pads. Mm. And so it's like, okay, how can we increase trial?

How can we bundle things together in ways that shoppers already are doing? Mm-hmm. And so that's been a really great way to use it. Um, and even in the fundraising process when I was pitching investors, we [00:25:00] would get these really nuanced questions about our Amazon shopper, around like our subscribers, and I was able to put a lot of those into Seller Assistant and send them back the answer, and-

Hala Taha: Oh, amazing

visualize all that. There you go.

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: How helpful.

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: So Katie, let's go back to social for a minute, because I know that you've gone viral quite a bit. You've got a huge following right now, and you had a post one time early on that got two million views, and then you got so much demand that you actually couldn't fulfill.

You weren't ready for that demand. Mm-hmm. Tell us about that story, and the pros and cons of going viral.

Katie Diasti: Yes. Every, I think every brand founder or brand wants to go viral. That's the goal, especially when you're putting out so much content, and then when it really happens, it's like- Oh, crap.

Hala Taha: What do we do?

Katie Diasti: True chaos. Um, and you know, it's, there were so many positives that came out of that, but also so many, like, negatives, and it really tested us operationally. So this is around the summer of [00:26:00] 2024, and a lot of new studies were coming out around arsenic and lead found in a lot of traditional period care.

And we were realizing that every other brand was like crickets to respond, and one of the pros, I think, of being a emerging brand is that you can be really nimble and respond quickly- Mm. Mm-hmm ... to things, especially trends and new education that comes out. And so we used that to our advantage. It was, like, a Saturday morning, I'm writing a statement, I'm pulling all of our test reports, I'm pulling all of our heavy metal testing, and we created an Instagram post and put it out and sent an email to all of our community because our, you know, customer support, our DMs were filled with, like, "Is this gonna kill me?

Is this gonna give me, like- Mm ... is this stuff lead?" And we were like, "Well, we need to educate people on how Viv is different." Yeah. And because of that response, we had so many creators, doctors, news writers, like, all talking about Viv as that safe alternative.

Hala Taha: Amazing.

Katie Diasti: Yeah, and it was so much so that when you would Google, like, [00:27:00] safest period care of 2024, it was Viv is the safest period care.

Hala Taha: Amazing.

Katie Diasti: And that led to so much new search volume. We thought we had six months of inventory of our tampons, like, ready to go in stock. We'd sold through it in three weeks.

Hala Taha: Oh my God.

Katie Diasti: And it was wild. We actually had an over 3,000 person wait list to get our next batch of tampons. Like, talk about thinking it was funny to, like, pre-order pads.

We were like, "Now we have a wait list for tampons?" Like, this is wild.

Hala Taha: Oh my God.

Katie Diasti: And it, the thing that we could lean on was our relationships with our manufacturing partners, which, like, being one of the smaller players in the space, like, you feel like you don't have much power, but that's why, like, years of building those connections will then come into hand, uh, come handy, 'cause usually it's, you know, six to nine monthly times.

Mm-hmm. And we were able to turn that around in, like, two to three months instead, which felt like a lifetime- Yeah ... when you're in it. At

Hala Taha: least people had a wait... There was no, there was not [00:28:00] really any alternative, so it's like you were able- Yeah ... to do a wait list, which is super cool.

Katie Diasti: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we knew exactly how- To like keep our community engaged, and like kept education up- Mm-hmm

and kept informing people of like, "Here's when it's gonna be back." And-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Katie Diasti: and actually used it as like a news story. Like, we were like, "Oh my gosh," like w- also, like with all of the writers that were talking about our, our products, we went back and we were like, "Look at the demand we have-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Katie Diasti: for a product that's out of stock," and created a new news cycle out of it.

And I think that's something we've learned is like the news is going to move really fast. As a brand, you need to put what you think's important and recreate that news cycle over and over again to get your story across, because it's like one second on a scroll for a consumer.

Hala Taha: That's so smart. And how did you get the publications to like pick up that new news story?

Was it just things you put on social, or did you reach out to them and like, "Hey, follow up on this"?

Katie Diasti: Both. I think it's so important to like build relationships with the [00:29:00] writers that like talk t- to you once when the very beginning- Mm ... first ever launch. And it's like don't like have one conversation with someone and be like, "Sayonara."

Like, I'm always following them on Instagram and making sure that they know about our latest products. Mm, that's so smart. And like engage with people. Like, I think relationship building is s- like a lost art in business- Mm-hmm ... today that- Yeah ... still needs to happen.

Hala Taha: So people go viral all the time, and that doesn't necessarily translate into sales.

Yeah. So what were your like best hacks of getting people to actually go to Amazon and purchase?

Katie Diasti: Yeah, I think it's really important for people to know what they're supposed to be looking for, and it's something that's really top of mind right now. We, we just launched a new tampon innovation called Cottonlock-

Hala Taha: Mm

Katie Diasti: and it's the first ever like anti-shed tampon to exist.

Hala Taha: Anti what?

Katie Diasti: Anti-shed tampon.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Katie Diasti: So it's the first tampon that prevents fibers from shedding inside the body.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Katie Diasti: And all other tampons on the market can leave fibers stuck inside the body. And so we're now creating all this content, but we're like, "Okay.

How [00:30:00] do they find from that one... A one video they see, they're like, 'Oh my God. Fiber shed, what?' And then like, 'I need to find a better tampon,' and then they scroll, move on." Like, what are those key things that they heard that when they go search into, "Oh, I gotta buy tampons this month. Like I'm gonna look and see if that like fiber shed option is available."

It's like what are people picking up, and like what are the few words and keywords you're really- Like shouting out there- Mm-hmm ... that they can then find within Amazon.

Hala Taha: That's really smart. So you're making sure that like you're clearly saying Viv, which is easy to remember.

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: Right? And you're always saying that you're on Amazon, and you're saying the keyword so people remember.

Are you doing any sort of like links or targeting or paid ads or anything like that to directly drive traffic? We're doing quite a bit more with like attribution links, which has been interesting,

Katie Diasti: especially with follow-up with press. If we have, you know, go into Fall Prime Day or other Prime Day sales, it's like, okay, like we just told you this really cool story about our new innovation and this new patented technology and our fundraise, but here [00:31:00] is a way that like you can make money and we can make money- Mm-hmm

that is also getting our brand out there. And

Hala Taha: you're using like Amazon's affiliate links.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. That's great. That's super smart.

Hala Taha: So speaking of Amazon, what are you learning from Amazon's data in terms of the products? Like, is there the way that people are searching or what they're buying with your product that's influencing your decisions at all?

I love what... This, this sounds so funny. I

Katie Diasti: love like doing keyword analysis and looking through like what led someone to our brand and led to a checkout.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Katie Diasti: And it does- So it's

Hala Taha: like a user journey basically. Yeah. You're studying the user journey.

Katie Diasti: Yeah, like th- this many people, um, like converted because they were looking for a dark colored menstrual cup.

And it's like, oh, interesting, like the color of our cup-

Hala Taha: Hmm ...

Katie Diasti: was a factor for some shoppers. And then some people were switching because they were looking specifically for a compact applicator that's an organic cotton tampon. It's like they wanted the compact. And it's like it allows us to understand what [00:32:00] key factors of our product people love and care about- Mm-hmm

or what they're remembering to search. Um, and so it's actually developed, you know, more of our product, more of our pack sizes as well is so key on Amazon. It's like, okay, if so many people are always buying two or three boxes at a time, do we need to be increasing our own profitability by creating a pack size that is just equivalent to three boxes?

Hala Taha: Hmm. That's, that's really interesting. So basically like having like a bigger quant- Like once somebody's already sold on the product, they're willing to buy more at a time, 'cause you don't want to be like ordering something off Amazon every month.

Katie Diasti: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Um, but talk to me about Subscribe & Save.

Katie Diasti: Yes.

Hala Taha: What's your tactics there?

Uh, I love Subscribe & Save. I think

Katie Diasti: it's been interesting because previously we didn't have a large, um, promo strategy around Subscribe & Save. We just, you know, threw it on there. We're like, yeah, people subscribe. And then as soon as we started increasing the promotion of that first month, we saw so many more subscribers.

Hmm. And they stay very loyal on Amazon within Subscribe & Save. Um, and so as long as you're like in [00:33:00] stock ready to fulfill, like that's a really loyal shopper- Mm-hmm ... that's really, really high retention. Um, and so it's been- Incredible for our business, but having those coupons attached to it has been key for conversion.

Hala Taha: Hmm. Well, this is How We Profit, so we gotta talk numbers a little bit. Mm-hmm. How big is the business today?

Katie Diasti: Gosh, so we've done over 3 million in revenue. This year we'll do, um, about, like, 3 to 4 million. Um, we've grown 3X year over year for the past several years now.

Hala Taha: Wow. That's incredible. And what are your biggest costs?

Like, what is the most costly part of your business? It's, it's been interesting because I

Katie Diasti: think, you know, naturally we're spending a lot on inventory- Yeah ... 'cause we care a lot about the quality of our product, and we have a lot of, like, safety that we want and testing that we want to see as a brand that we don't wanna, you know, compromise on.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Katie Diasti: Um, freight, shipping, those kinds of things are where costs can really add up- Mm ... and really eat into margins- [00:34:00] Yeah ... as a business. And so something we've had to, like, really learn how to optimize. What's your most profitable product? Our cups and our discs are our most profitable products right now.

Hala Taha: Also, the most expensive though, you were saying.

Katie Diasti: Yes.

Hala Taha: So they're expensive to make, but you can charge more for them.

Katie Diasti: They're pretty. Um, our margins are high, so they're, they're not super expensive to create. Okay. It's a medical-grade silicone, so product-wise. Um, but because it's reusable, and we're seeing, you know, our competitors are charging $40 to $50 for one cup.

We're charging on Amazon $20 for a cup.

Hala Taha: Hmm. So it's still really cost-effective for the user.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. So cost-effective for user, but allows us room for both Amazon margins and ensuring that, you know, we're still profitable with the cost of paid ad, with the cost of selling on the platform and fulfillment, and for when we're in retail doors.

Like, we knew that we were gonna be selling Viv in more places than our direct website.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Katie Diasti: And so we wanted to build in margins that allowed us to win and allowed us to sustain being a business.

Hala Taha: Yeah. So, like, [00:35:00] tampons and pads to me is, like, kind of like a commodity. I imagine that it's, like, very low margins, and you've got to do a lot of volume.

So, like, how do you think about the sales for that? Like, what is your strategy?

Katie Diasti: Yeah. It's interesting too, because, you know, we've built... Like, in personal care, they're great margins compared to other categories. Hmm. It's, um, all of our... Across the board, we still have, like, an over 70% margin across SKUs. Oh,

Hala Taha: wow.

Katie Diasti: And, uh, the... I think that's essential as a brand, and it's almost, like, a death wish to not have high enough margins- Mm-hmm ... because it's something where we're like, we know we can, as we scale or potential exits, like, we can become more accessible on price over time. But you can't, like, go up on price- Mm-hmm

after your certain set price. So that's been really key for us.

Hala Taha: Let's talk about funding. So you started off with, like, less than 5,000 bucks.

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: At a certain point, you got investors. Was that when you went viral? Is that when you approached investors? Or, like, when did you decide you needed investor money?

Katie Diasti: Yeah. We've had a really interesting approach to funding. I [00:36:00] knew as a first-time founder, as a young woman, and, you know, so m- building in period care, talking to, like, old men investors about period care- Yeah. I was like, "I have a lot stacked against me for raising money in a traditional way-" Mm-hmm

naturally from baseline, right? And I knew I needed to prove that I could get traction-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Katie Diasti: in some way before pitching a single investor. Um, and it was something I would think I'm, I'm glad I started my company, like, so young and willing. I was a sponge. Like, I just wanted to learn from everyone. And there's a f- you know, the classic saying when you're raising money, like, if you want money, ask for advice, and if you want advice, ask for money.

Mm. And I didn't even realize I was doing it because I genuinely needed the advice. I needed the expertise. And I was seeing all these other brands raising money, and I was like, they haven't even launched yet. Yeah. They're not selling from their apartment. They don't have any sales, yeah. Like they're not taking

Hala Taha: orders.

They haven't gone viral. Yeah.

Katie Diasti: Yeah. And I was like, what do I... I remember talking to a lot of my mentors who have built [00:37:00] brands, who have had really cool exits, have, you know, sold their companies to L'Oréal, and I was like, "What do I need to do to raise money?" And they were like Here's the p- here's what you need to have fixed up, and also when you're ready, I want to be your first angel check.

Oh, amazing. And I realized, like, a lot of the people I was building connections with wanted to be my supporters, 'cause they were seeing me from zero to point two to p- Mm-hmm ... point five. Like, they were seeing the journey. And-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Katie Diasti: there's a phrase that, like, you're a point on a graph for an investor, so if you can keep showing them that progress.

Like, I, to some people I was, like, here, but to them I had grown from, like, way up, and I was just constantly seeing this, like, rocket ship, because I was keeping them updated. I was sending update emails for the sake of sending update emails- Mm ... 'cause I was like, I hope someone cares and wants to listen, and that paid dividend.

So whenever we were ready to launch tampons, we knew we needed more capital because of, like, the extensiveness of that SKU, needing more FDA approval. And [00:38:00] that's when I was like, okay, let's raise some money. Um, and we raised initially 500K. We launched the tampon products. We started to scale. We started getting some retail interest.

And as we were getting more retail interest, I was like, oh my gosh, we need more money. And our current investors, the same group of people, were like, "Let's keep going," and continued to reinvest in our company. And we would just use different milestone markers. Like, okay, now we're launching nationwide at Whole Foods.

The same investors are like, "I'm in again." Mm. And would continue to back us. Um, and then recently we just closed our, our seed round of 2 million, and that was a new approach. Because, you know, now we're profitable, we had all this traction, we could show, like, a clear path forward for scale, and we're a really, like, buttoned-up, healthy company to be- Mm-hmm

able to raise money. It's still incredibly-

Hala Taha: You probably weren't, like, that scared of raising that money, 'cause you're like, "I'll be able to make that back no problem given- Yeah ... uh, all the traction."

Katie Diasti: Yeah, and I knew what I was gonna do with it, you know? It's like I knew where I wanted every dollar to go, and how it would get, come back to us-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm

Katie Diasti: as a business. [00:39:00] And I think if I had had raised, you know, millions of dollars pre-product, pre-launch, probably would've spent a lot of it in the wrong ways. Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Katie Diasti: And now I know exactly where we should spend it.

Hala Taha: Yeah, and you've been such a scrappy founder. I think one of your biggest advantages is that, like, you built a community.

You were able to grow a following, go viral. A lot of people start a business and they're like, "Okay, paid ads. I'm gonna pay for an influencer. I'm gonna do..." You, like, built it yourself. Do you feel like that's, like, a huge advantage that you have over other period companies? I always

Katie Diasti: make this, like, joke that, like, if a founder has never touched cardboard, then, like, they're d- really disconnected from their p- their customer, their shopper, their community.

And I think the fact that we've, like, literally packed the box and, like- Mm-hmm ... sent handwritten notes in, like, the first hundreds and hundreds of orders and, like, have felt what it's like to be like, "Oh, my gosh. Interesting. People keep buying two liner boxes," and with this product. Like, when you're doing that, you have such a different sense of your shopper.

[00:40:00] And we did- I did customer support myself for way too long. Like, truly too long, but I learned so much, and I think that is the reason that we're gonna win.

Hala Taha: Yeah. I think the other, like, lesson from your story is how big you are on relationships and follow-up and communication. Like, I love when you were just saying, like, with your investors, you would send them, like, updates even though, like, nobody told you to do that.

And people don't understand, like, how big of a marketing channel, like, email is, like, even an email newsletter, and how top of mind and bigger you seem to people who get your emails. Yeah. So I just think that was super smart, and then what you said about the PR follow-up. So I think that's a big lesson for everybody tuning in.

Katie Diasti: Yeah.

Hala Taha: Help me understand, like- With fulfillment, do you feel like you'd be able to scale in the way that you're scaling right now if you didn't have that capability with Amazon?

Katie Diasti: No. Um, I think having strong fulfillment [00:41:00] partners, and, like, warehousing partners, and operational partners is so, so key in wanting to scale a business.

Which, like, you know, we grew that both internally and within Amazon, right? And it's like now our internal operations team can help use Amazon to scale, and also do so in a cost-effective way so that we can spend more on acquiring a customer than just getting them their product. Hmm. Um, but yeah, I think Amazon Fulfillment, FBA, was so key on, like, reaching a new customer that we wouldn't have had access to before.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. And how has starting on Amazon actually helped you then enter retail?

Katie Diasti: It's so interesting. I think Amazon is, like, a requirement for being in retail doors successfully. Hmm. I think it's very risky and actually bad practice to try to launch in retail doors without having a strong enough direct-to-consumer business-

Hala Taha: Absolutely

Katie Diasti: and an online community that's [00:42:00] ready to go shop in stores. Today, retail buyers need you as a brand to bring in all of the customers to that aisle, and you're not only the supplier and the product on shelf, and you're also, like, a media company. Mm-hmm. And you're the ones bringing in traffic to what was probably previously, like, a slow aisle.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Katie Diasti: And for us, it, it was bringing in a new demographic that they didn't really have in the period aisle, that wasn't spending enough time there. Yeah. It's like how do we get this new demographic to spend more time in the period care section.

Hala Taha: So if you were doing it all over again, you would start on Amazon first.

Katie Diasti: Absolutely. 100%. I would build up my Amazon so much that I could go to any retail buyer and say, "Look at my Amazon number." Mm-hmm. We, we to this day... I was just telling someone this in the conference, and they were asking about Amazon and retail, and we get screenshot data back from some of the biggest retailers in the country, [00:43:00] and saying like, "Hey, this is what we saw for, like, this SKU do.

Like, let's have a conversation." Mm. But it's like, "This is what it's doing on Amazon- Yeah ... so let's talk."

Hala Taha: That's so good. So more than 60% of sales on Amazon is actually from independent sellers. What is something that somebody who's thinking about starting on Amazon might not realize that Amazon does to support their sellers?

Katie Diasti: Yeah. I think people look at Amazon when they're an emerging brand and think, "Oh, that's, like, too big for me." Mm. Like, "That's too scary." Like, "That's too big of a beast to tackle." Where you do have a lot more control over your storefront, and it's only going to lead positives because it's like you're now searchable for the first time-

Hala Taha: Mm

Katie Diasti: in a way that takes so much more capital to get people to your direct website.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Katie Diasti: Like, no one is searching a direct website, right? Yeah. They're going to other platforms to buy things. Um, and so if you want to, like, have [00:44:00] more ease and discoverability, like, being on Amazon does that for you.

Hala Taha: Yeah, I mean, that's, like, such a big marketing rule.

Don't create demand. Channel demand, right? Yeah. So you're getting all the demand from people on Amazon who are already searching for these types of products.

Katie Diasti: Yes. And we had so much support. I think it's been interesting to see, like, how m- you get a rep, and people will, like, talk to you, and, like, people will...

If you have issues, like, you can ask support. Like-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Katie Diasti: if you're a solo founder, like, building in silo, like, the thought of that is amazing.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And you're at Amazon Accelerate right now, so you're with all these peers that are doing the same thing as you. Mm. You're probably learning so much from the sessions and from other sellers that

Katie Diasti: are here.

What is, like, the biggest takeaway from the conference so far? Ooh. It's so cool, 'cause I love coming and learning about how other sellers are utilizing more of the tools to save them time, and I'm really big on, like, optimizing our time right now as a team. And there are so many things out there that I'm like, "Wow, we're manually doing that.

Like, why are we doing so?" And talking to [00:45:00] some of my brand friends that are walking around, they're like, "Oh my gosh, yeah, you gotta be using..." Like, this seller says st- like, whole, like, uh, prompt to be able to understand- Mm ... like, all the elements of your business. Um, but having community amongst other founders has been, like, I think a key for success.

Like, you need to be able to keep talk laterally with other people who are in the same boat as you, rather than, like, always thinking that you have to network up.

Hala Taha: Mm. So my final question to you, for our young and profiters out there tuning in who wanna copy you, they wanna build their own consumer brand, they wanna start on Amazon first, what is your best piece of advice to build a scalable, sustainable, profitable business?

Katie Diasti: Mm. One, have your margins zipped up. Mm. Know your numbers- Mm-hmm ... really well. But also, like, build something you actually care about, and that you wake up every day and you're like, "I need this product- Mm ... and this company to exist." 'Cause starting a [00:46:00] company is really hard. If you don't actually care about what you're doing, it's going to be impossible.

Hala Taha: Yeah. I totally agree. Katie, this has been awesome. We learned so much from you. Thank you so much for joining us- Yeah ... on How We Profit. Thanks for having me. And that's how Katie and Viv profit. Katie's story is a reminder that scrappiness can really get a business off the ground, but growth forces you to build differently.

When demand took off, Katie learned how quickly inventory and fulfillment can become bottlenecks. Selling an Amazon store has helped Viv take some of that operational pressure off the team, so Katie can stay focused on building the brand and making smarter decisions about where to grow next. And Viv is part of a much bigger story.

More than 60% of sales in Amazon's store come from independent sellers, most of which are small and medium-sized businesses. Amazon provides sellers with tools and services designed to help entrepreneurs grow. To learn more about how Amazon is helping independent sellers succeed, visit [00:47:00] sellingpartners.aboutamazon.com.

I'm your host, Hala Taha, and I'll see you in the next one.

[00:00:00] Hala Taha: Tori, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

[00:01:49] Tori Dunlap: Thank you so much for having me, stoked to be here.

[00:01:51] Hala Taha: Likewise, I'm very excited for today's show, young and Profit is Today I'm joined by Tori Dunlap. She's an internationally recognized money and career expert, seven figure entrepreneur, bestselling author, and top podcast host, C N B C called Tori.

The voice of financial Confidence for Women and Time said that Tori Dunlap is on top of the personal finance world. She's a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree, and the author of the New York Times bestselling book, financial Feminist. In this episode, Tori will demystify her investing and wealth building tips for the new generation.

She'll share how to set financial goals, some of the myths that stand in the way of our financial freedom, how to spend and invest mindfully, and her advice for creating a strong financial future. So Tori, you're a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree and recognized as a top financial expert, especially for women and millennials.

And after doing some research on your background, I discovered that you've always been really good with your money. So curious to understand what were your influences growing up around money, and how did that shape your mindset and attitude towards the topic?

[00:02:56] Tori Dunlap: I grew up with parents who educated me about money, and I thought that was the case for everybody.

I thought, okay, everybody knows not to overspent on credit cards. Everybody knows how to save. Everybody knows how to manage money responsibly. And as I got older, graduated high school, went into college and started having more conversations with people, I realized of course that wasn't the case and especially not the case for most people that I was talking to in my generation and specifically women.

So I was the friend, all of my friends who were coming to for advice and guidance around money. It shocks a lot of people to hear and may sha your audience to hear. I did not study finance. I technically didn't even study business. I studied marketing and theater in college, but Donald Trump got elected.

So I graduated college in May of 2016, was trying to figure out the kind of person in the woman I wanted to be in this world. And five months later the election happens and I'm coming into adulthood and really into womanhood in a very different country than I think a lot of us expected. So I'm trying to figure out how do I wanna show up?

What do I care about? What do I want my life to look like? And when you are the friend, all of your friends were coming to for advice. And when you're also starting to see that your own financial background is the reason you're able to have flexibility, you're able to quit the job that feels toxic and find a better option for you, you're able to travel, you're able to donate to causes you believe in.

You start to realize, oh, maybe money is my form of protest in this world. Maybe money is the tool and the resource I need to not only build the life that I love, but also to start shaping a world that I want to see. And so I really became just so on fire about personal finance, but specifically, again, using money as a tool to shape your life into something that you love and to start shaping communities around you.

So my work. Started as a side hustle, her first a hundred k. This now global multimillion dollar business with employees and a podcast and a book was the thing I was doing on the side of my nine to five in marketing. And as I was growing my own confidence as a leader and as someone who was learning how to connect with people and educate them step by step about how to build wealth, I was also seeing in my own life, When I have money, I have options, and so the rest is, is crazy.

Now, I took it full-time after saving a hundred thousand dollars at age 25, which was the origin story of her first a hundred k. I was on Good Morning America. Quit my job three weeks later and now we have 3 million people who were shaping and teaching them how to pay off debt and save money and start investing.

[00:05:29] Hala Taha: I love your story and we have so many similarities. I also started YAP and YAP Media as a side hustle and so from my understanding, The first thing you started was a blog. Is that right?

[00:05:41] Tori Dunlap: Yeah. So it was a blog in late 2016. That kind of era, like mid 2010s. Mm-hmm. Was like the Tumblr blog era, if you can think back that far.

Right? Yeah. I had a blog too. Yeah. So that was what I thought was like, okay, I wanna share my life as a 20 something woman. Like how to navigate career, how to travel, and how to do all these things. And I started to realize, Probably about a year or two in that I was like, oh, all of my topics have something to do with money.

Yeah, I would talk about traveling to Costa Rica, but I'd talk about negotiating our car rental, or I'd talk about finding a cheap flight, obviously with a career, right? I'm working to make money and to hopefully have this sense of purpose or passion. And again, I, I was becoming more political, becoming more educated about systemic oppression and the various.

Aspects of personal finance that I was not seeing covered, right? You think about Dave Ramsey, Susie Orman, these like very well-known personal finance experts, and very rarely do they talk about how racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, have anything to do with money. And I talk about this in my book, financial Feminist, but it 80% of the personal finance equation is the systemic factors that you have no control of.

Only 20% of the personal finance equation is. How to get a budget together and making sure you're optimized in your Roth i r a. So mm-hmm. I wanted to have conversations that were more nuanced and during that time, I think a lot of the financial experts were starting to have those conversations post 2016 with Black Lives Matter in 2020, the research, and so that movement.

So I think it was really important for me to have those conversations be something that was not just. You can't buy a house because you buy lattes, and it's like, no, what is the real reason? So yeah, all of that started as a blog as I was trying to figure out my own voice too.

[00:07:29] Hala Taha: I love that. And we're gonna talk about how to fight the patriarchy through finances in a bit.

Let's put a pin on that, and I just wanna understand your story a little bit better. Sure. So you had this goal of saving a hundred thousand dollars. Once you hit that goal, you decided to quit your full-time job and go all in on, on, you know, first a hundred K brand and, and everything that you've built so far.

What made you first think of that idea of saving a hundred thousand dollars? Was that really intentional that you did that and you knew that that was the plan? That I'd love to hear that story.

[00:08:03] Tori Dunlap: I'm just that person that set goals for myself. From a very young age. I literally have joked in like the promotion of my book.

I sat down when I was seven or eight and said, I wanna write a book someday. Now, did I think it was gonna be like a personal finance book? No. Hell no. That was not the plan. But for me, a hundred k was, I was reading another personal finance blog and I saw someone write about their a hundred K net worth at 25, and I was probably 23 and I started doing the math and I was like, If I can increase my income by X percentage and if I can continue to save X percentage, and if my investments perform like they're performing, I think I can hit this.

The joke was, as long as I do it the day before I turn 26, it still counts. It was, you know, a hundred K at 25. And that a hundred k happened, I think three months after my 25th birthday. So Wow. It was a combination of a lot of things. It was the privilege of being able to graduate college debt free. I was working three jobs on campus, getting scholarships.

I also had parents who were financially minded and who were able to contribute to my college. Like to acknowledge that right off the bat because it's not something that everybody has the privilege of doing. I was also saving a huge percentage of my income. My take home pay 27% at the peak was going towards savings.

Then everything I made in my side hustle, I was able to contribute to the a hundred K goal as well. I was focused on value-based spending. I was still traveling internationally. I was still going out to eat. That's the other question. People are like, oh, you ate oatmeal for and ramen? And I'm like, no, actually I still did all of the things in a, you know, huge US city that I wanted to do as somebody in their twenties.

But yeah, that a hundred k, and this is, this is the thing that's so important is a lot of people, I find, especially women, they're not necessarily motivated by the numbers. For me, there was something about seeing a hundred K in the bank account that was like that. You know, that burst of serotonin. But it's very difficult sometimes to get somebody to care about money when they think it's just numbers.

We know that money is psychological. We know that money is emotional, and so when I thought about that a hundred K and when shit started getting hard where I couldn't save, or there was a period of time that I spent unemployed, so I was not only. Not saving money. I was spending the money I had already saved.

I was trying to figure out, okay, I set this arbitrary goal for myself. What's the point? The a hundred K meant that I got to quit my job. That was the promise I had made to myself is I attached the number to a goal and to a feeling I literally imagined, like, what would my life look like if I didn't have to make somebody?

I didn't respect Rich. What would my life look like if I didn't have to? Ask to take p t O and get it denied. What would my life look like if I didn't have to commute into a job that I didn't feel aligned with my passions or aligned with the mission and values of my life? What did that feel like? And it felt amazing.

And so that a hundred K goal, yes. Part of it was seeing the a hundred k being able to see the headline, which I'm. Grateful that there are many, you know how this 25 year old saved a hundred K, but really it was about how does my life change? So if you're out there and you're trying to get yourself motivated, how do I become debt free?

Right? Or how do I, you know, invest enough for retirement? Or how do I make ends meet so that I don't feel panicked all of the time? Associate that with a feeling, right? What does it feel like to not have somebody demanding that you send them money every month for your student loans? What does it feel like to know, oh yeah, I can buy this thing without guilt or shame because I've budgeted for it.

What does it feel like to know that you are going to be set for retirement, that 65 year old you is taken care of? What does that feel like? That for me was really the driving force of how does my life change and what does it feel like to use money as a tool to get me there.

[00:11:58] Hala Taha: I love that. I think that's really good advice.

And I remember I saved my first a hundred K at 28, I wanna say, and the amount of freedom I felt and just agency over my own life. I didn't need a man, I didn't need my parents. I didn't need, all of a sudden I felt like, well, if I don't like this job, I could leave because I have a hundred grand and that's at least gonna keep me afloat for four to six months and whatever.

So it really did unlock a lot of, Limiting mindsets for myself. So I would encourage everybody to have some sort of a financial goal like that.

[00:12:30] Tori Dunlap: Well, and that's the feeling I want for every single person listening. That is the feeling I want, is I am in situations I want to be in rather than situations I'm forced to be in, or I don't have to tolerate bullshit from a partner, from a company.

I can do what I want because I have the financial means to do so. That is so incredibly liberating. And it reflects in every aspect of your life. I show up differently in my relationships because I know that I'm not dependent on somebody financially. I show up different in my career. I show up different in my business.

I show up different to myself in how I talk to myself. And I think, again, that's the feeling I want for every single person listening is when you start becoming financially confident, when you start having that financial foundation, not just your financial life, but. All of the rest of your life changes.

The rest of your life changes.

[00:13:22] Hala Taha: Yeah. And that kind of confidence is actually very attractive, right? Because it's like you're not coming out in an insecure way to anyone, and people gravitate to that kind of confidence. So speaking of confidence,you have a theater background and I've had.

Traditional financial experts on the show like Susie Orman, like you mentioned, Peter Malu and lots of great financial experts. But what's the advantage of learning from somebody outside of a traditional background?

[00:13:52] Tori Dunlap: So many advantages. Thank you for asking this question. I spoke at Morningstar at one of their big splashy conferences probably about a month ago, and I was keynoting, and it was really interesting to see people's responses because I did say on stage, you know, I studied theater and.

I was joking. The girls that get it, get it and the girls that don't, don't like it was. It was very interesting to see what kind of people were like, oh, you're a theater major. How are you qualified? And I'm like, all of these other qualifications. Okay, a couple things. One, I think there's something actually so refreshing about hearing this complicated, inaccessible topic explained by somebody who's not in it.

I know that there's a certain level of jargon. Any industry, but specifically personal finance. And this is no fault of any financial professional, but when you've been in it for a while, that's just the language you use. And I was on a panel at the beginning of her first a hundred k, it was probably 2019.

I was still working as a marketer and this was my side hustle. And I had all of these people in these panel who were, you know, venture capitalists and financial advisors and who had been doing this for years. And it was so interesting to them. They were speaking to this room of 20 and 30 something women who are my primary demographic, and using the words that they thought were investing 1 0 1 terms like asset allocation or portfolio rebalancing you.

And I know what that means, right? But I literally saw the rest, like the entire audience's eyes glaze over 'cause they're like, I don't know what that means. And also this industry is so veiled and so gate kept that I'm afraid of looking stupid if I ask. There's something so refreshing about seeing me not in a pencil skirt, but in a leather jacket, and Adidas being like, Hey, I'm gonna explain everything to you like you're five, and not because you're dumb and not to condescend you, but because nobody taught you this.

So coming outside of that industry I think is so helpful in terms of running a business. There are so many people that I have met who have arts or theater backgrounds who are incredibly successful entrepreneurs. Even in the personal finance space. I don't know if you know Stef O'Connell. Theater person, Aaron Lowery, broke millennial theater person.

There are so many of us who study theater or did theater because when you're an entrepreneur, that is what you do all day. This right here, I'm staring at a camera. This is my theater degree. Am I comfortable speaking in front of 5,000 people? Am I comfortable going live on C N B C yesterday? Am I comfortable doing that?

And am I comfortable being able to story tell? I. What I am doing and why this brand matters, which is your entire job as a C E O or entrepreneur is just like jazz handing your company, right? Just like jazz hands the entire time of like, this is what we're doing, this is why it matters. Storytelling is what theater gave me the opportunity to do as well as be comfortable on stage in front of people being able to adapt.

We run a financial media company much like you. I have tons of knowledge about personal finance, but really I run a media company that just happens to talk about money. I run a feminist company that talks about money, and I think that my theater background and my communications background is absolutely huge for that.

[00:17:14] Hala Taha: I'm like vigorously nodding because I 100% agree with you as an entrepreneur. There's so much creativity that's involved in being an inventor that's involved. And by the way, entrepreneurship is not something that you tackle alone. So if for some reason you have a gap in business or financial knowledge, You can fill that gap with other people that you can hire on your team.

And by the way, you're also allowed to be a dynamic person that can be good at business and finance and the arts. Right. So I'm totally aligned with everything that you're saying. So something that you touched on that I wanna dig deeper on is this fact that you were speaking to all this women and you felt like these words were sort of just glazing over their heads.

And I know you've talked about in the past about how women and men are sort of taught different things when it comes to finance from when we're young children. Adulthood, the way that we're taught this financial information tends to be different. Can you talk to us about that?

[00:18:07] Tori Dunlap: Yes. The entire thesis of my book really is that is just the lack of financial education and specifically how money affects women or any marginalized group differently.

And if you are a man listening, I need you to not like check out because this is not like I hate all men. The patriarchy does not mean we hate men. The patriarchy hurts men just as much as it hurts women. So when we're talking about the way we speak about money, first of all, nobody's taught about money unless you were, and that sounds kinda like, no doubt, but like unless you had parents like mine who sat down to teach you about money, you were not taught about money regardless of your gender identity.

That's the reality. It's like there are very few places to actually learn about money, and even when it's taught to you, it is emotionally charged typically, and it depends on. Your parents or your teacher's background. I can't tell you the amount of first gen or people of color who have come to me and been like, I learned about money.

I learned that credit cards were evil and that I shouldn't trust banks. And that money was the thing we didn't have enough of so that when we got money, we had to just hoard it. And that's not exactly the perspective we want. Right? So first of all, nobody's taught about money. Second, I could spend an hour talking to you just about this, but I'll give you a very specific example.

I. Look at the toys that we give boys versus what we give girls. Stereotypically. We give boys Legos, trucks, things to build, right, things that build their sense of self-reliance and of creativity and of their own ingenuity. What do we give girls Dolls? Easy bake ovens. Things to take care of. We give a literal child, another child to take care of.

So what we're telling kids is we're telling boys, your inherent worth and value is in your own creativity and your own thinking, right? Your own initiative. We're telling girls your value to society and your identity is in caregiving and altruism. Now that altruism is beautiful and lovely, and it's one of the things I love most about being a woman.

But what happens then when we do start becoming financially confident as women? I do go on social media and talk about the fact that I'm a millionaire. When I do talk about me negotiating my salary or me negotiating my rate, suddenly it's Why aren't you grateful for your opportunities? she's greedy, she's bossy, she's bragging.

The weaponization of the altruism starts happening. So when we are conditioned to be altruistic, we're conditioned to be givers, which is again beautiful, and we should donate and we should give. When we don't conform to that roller identity, when we're no longer controllable. 'cause really that's what it is.

When I have money, I'm no longer controllable. The perspective shifts to, we need to remind her that she needs to tax herself and just be grateful for where she's at and not go above her station. We don't do that for men. A man can post a photo on Instagram or on Twitter with him at the golf course in a Rolex.

The comments are cool. Rolex, bro. You're doing well for yourself, right? The comments for women, if I show up in a designer dress, or if I have the audacity and I'm putting this in quotes to flaunt my wealth, suddenly it's, why aren't you donating more? It's not aspirational the way it is for men. Also, it's more socially acceptable for men to not only pursue wealth, but to talk about wealth. Nobody's educated about it, but there is the shift that happens with teenagers, literally teenage boys, like going on Reddit, talking with their friends about crypto or the hot stock.

Women are just not allowed into those conversations and not socially conditioned to have them. And my final point, I'll make, in hetero narrative relationships, when a man is with a woman The men are handling the wealth building, the women are handling the day-to-day finances still.

So in 2023, women are handling the budgeting and the coupon clipping and like the household management, and that's important. That's how households run, but that's not the wealth building. Men are handling the real estate and the investing, and these like $30,000, $50,000, a hundred thousand dollars decisions.

Women are handling the like, which cottage cheese is cheaper. And so if we really want to see. The wealth gap start to lessen. We have to have conversations about money and we as a society have to be comfortable with women's pursuit of wealth in a way that we just aren't right now. We are okay with men pursuing wealth.

We are okay with men managing these huge decisions in a way we just aren't with women.

[00:22:50] Hala Taha: It's so interesting to hear you talk about this and then thinking back to my own experiences. I feel like my fans and my listeners very positive about me speaking about money and how to make money and, and being really supportive.

But then at the same time, like I'll have people like my mom who will constantly be like, holla, stop saying how much money you make. And I'm like, why?

[00:23:11] Tori Dunlap: My own parents to teach. Everyone who taught me about money are the ones who will call me and be like, I'm really worried about you. I'm really worried about you talking about how much money you make.

They're not wrong though, because that's the thing. That's another example. Men can talk about how much money they make and they're lauded women. It's a risk, a career risk, a like literally safety risk. It becomes a risk when you are transparent about money in a way that just, it isn't for men. And so I am doing the same thing where like I will show you my pay stubs, I will show you how much I make.

I also now know that there is a certain inherent risk to that just because of my gender identity in a way that there isn't for a straight white man. There just isn't. It's so crazy. And again, we have this own internalized stuff going on ourselves, right? This is not like men necessarily like putting this on us.

This is. So many women coming to me being like, yeah, but I should just be grateful that I have a job at all. And I'm like, yes, and you're not being compensated fairly, so let's get you a raise.

[00:24:14] Hala Taha: So let's talk about how women are shamed for spending and the double standards around that.

[00:24:21] Tori Dunlap: Mm. I have a whole section in my book. We have a whole chapter about spending and one of the just such interesting things ties back to what I was saying before of like the Rolex problem, right?

Men can purchase Rolexes and it's like you're doing well for yourself. Women have the audacity to spend money on anything remotely nice, and it's like, why aren't you donating more? That was a waste of money. Specifically, let's talk about how we think of spending in general. The words frivolous spending almost are only attached to women.

And what are the things that are deemed frivolous? Things that are innately feminine. Lattes, pedicures, manicures. Again, designer bags. The things that we deem frivolous are the things that are innately feminine. They're not N F L season tickets or golf clubs. So when you Google like how to save money 2023, the advice is still minimize.

The advice for men is maximize. Maximize your earning, right? Maximize your investments. How can you make more money? How can you expand? The advice for women is how can you spend less? How can you shrink? The advice for men getting rich is make more money, which is good advice, but the advice for women is spend less money.

There's only so much less money you can spend. In theory, you can make as much money as you want. Again, that's like a huge asterisk, but in theory, you can only not spend. Up to a certain point, you still have to pay your rent. You still have to buy food for yourself. So it's really interesting the difference there in how, again, we educate people about money and specifically like what is deemed frivolous, the frivolous spending, the stuff that's innately feminine.

[00:26:03] Hala Taha: Yeah. Super, super interesting stuff. I wanna move on to talk about the psychology of money and mindsets behind money. So you say that we have to understand our emotions behind money and that money is not inherently bad. So how should we start reframing our mindset around money?

[00:26:21] Tori Dunlap: Yeah. When I was embarking on writing my book and really educating people about money in general, I was like, okay, we gotta get to the actionable advice.

'cause that's what I'm really good at. I'm really good at like, you do this and then you do this and you do this, and here's what a Roth I r A is and here's how to take advantage of one. And what happened in my early days, I used to do one-on-one coaching with people. And what would happen is they would be successful for a period of time, but then they would fall off the bandwagon for whatever reason.

And when I would ask them or like dig into that deeper, I started to realize, oh, there's so many emotional hangups. There are so many psychological. Trauma, quite honestly, about money. Money is emotional. It's psychological. When it's good, when it's bad, we feel a certain way about every financial choice we make, whether that's how we spend our money, how we're saving our money, what we're saving it for.

Everything is psychological. So I very intentionally spent the first chapter before we go into the rest of it, before we go into the how to pay off debt and how to budget about how to navigate the emotional, psychological sides of money. Even we were talking about before, these kind of like narratives you're told about money.

The biggest one is you shouldn't talk about money that's impolite, right? You shouldn't talk about money. That is a psychological narrative meant to keep you underpaid and overworked because if you don't talk about money, you don't know that Chad who was hired two years after you is making 20% more than you.

You don't know that the debt shame you feel your friend group feels too. You don't know. That's one of those that is so steeped in us. The other one is that money can't buy you happiness. That is complete and utter bullshit. Money can a hundred percent buy you safety and stability, and that for most people is happiness.

Now, it's true in theory, right? You shouldn't buy a Ferrari to make you happy, but it buys me the freedom to purchase something that feels like a small luxury or to. Hire a house cleaner if I need to do that, and to be able to tip them 30%. There's so much flexibility that that offers, and I would argue that that is happiness.

But again, that's a narrative told to you that you have internalized in order to not have you pursue money. And one of the other ones is this misconception that like if you work hard, you will be financially successful. Plenty of people, I would argue most people work their fucking asses off. Yet have nothing to show it for it financially because of, again, of this system that constantly keeps them in poverty.

So there's so many things that we have ingrained or narratives we've started to believe, and they start from our parents. They start from society. They start from, again, how we're raised around money. And so the first step to start unpacking that is to figure out what sort of, again, misconceptions or narratives have I been believing and do I want to carry those with me?

Do I believe that talking about money is taboo? Do I believe that actually it's okay to talk about sex and death and politics and religion and anything else controversial before I'll talk about money? 'cause that's what the stats say right now. We're more likely to have any other uncomfortable conversation before we'll have a financial conversation.

Do I want to see people who have money as inherently evil? Is that something that I want to carry with me? You have to decide that for yourself. I. The other practice I do in my book, and we can even do this live if you'd like. Yeah. Is thinking about your first money memory.

[00:29:49] Hala Taha: I was gonna bring that up next. So let's do it.

[00:29:52] Tori Dunlap: What is the first time you remember thinking about money? Because that will have a huge impact on the way you are viewing money in general because it's, again, it's how your parents or how your caregivers were using money. So my first money memory is saving any penny or, you know, change I had in that Altoids tin to go see a musical.

The theater major runs deep. But like that was what I wanted to do. 'cause my mom told me, if you want a ticket to this, you need to save your money. So I internalized, okay, if I want something, I have to save my money. I have plenty of other people I've talked to who my first money memory is, my parents screaming at each other and arguing about how they didn't have enough money.

My money memory is having to get a separate line and a separate ticket to get like my school funded lunch because my parents couldn't afford my school lunch. There's plenty of money memories that have everything to do with how you're managing money now. So if you're willing to share what your first money memory is.

[00:30:46] Hala Taha: So I remember I have two cousins that live down the street that are my age, and we had a master plan that we were gonna save money to go to Disneyland. And so we had a big plastic crayon.

Piggy bank that we'd fill with quarters and I would put them to work. I would make them create little paintings and pictures and then sell it at Sunday school. And we'd have like slushy stands in the summer hustling. I'd be like massaging my parents' feet for $20. Like I was always hustling to try to make this money for Disneyland.

And then I think we did it for like two years and then we, we, I think we just like blew the money at the mall or something and like switched gears. But. It was actually making money as a little entrepreneur, putting my cousins to work so that we could fund this Disneyland trip. And so I always felt like, I guess anything was possible in terms of money and, and just making it happen.

So pretty interesting.

[00:31:44] Tori Dunlap: Yeah. And it's so crazy to think about how it connects, right? And how it ends up manifesting in our lives now. So if anybody at home can do that and can start digging into that, and then the follow up question is not just what is my money memory, but how does my first money memory again shape the way I'm managing money now?

What through lines are there? And sometimes it's the exact opposite. Like we were talking about before of, I see again a lot of first gen or people of color, they saw their parents not grow up with a lot. And so then their thought is, any dollar I get, I have to save. I have no flexibility with myself at all because I'm not sure when my next paycheck's coming.

Right? So even money memories that could be deemed positive of, okay, it's encouraging me to save, but at what cost? Right. Are you completely depriving yourself of all joy? Well, that's not great either. I had a client that I mentioned in the book who was saving 90% of her income and she wasn't, you know, making a million dollars.

It was like 90% of 75 k. And I was like, my God, you don't need to save that much. But when we dug into it, She didn't grow up with a lot and she was like, I need to save every single penny because I don't know what the future holds for me. And I'm like, you can ease off the gas. It's okay. It's okay to not to save all of this money.

[00:33:00] Hala Taha: Yeah. This reminds me of, I had Ramit, uh, Satie on the show and he talks about this concept of a rich life and basically rich life baby

[00:33:08] Tori Dunlap: . Yeah. He came on our show as well and talked about it, and then he's also featured in my book, financial Feminist, but yeah. Perfect. Perfect example of. What is your rich life?

What is the life you dream for yourself that money can afford you? Totally.

[00:33:21] Hala Taha: Yeah, totally. So just for context for my listeners, basically what he says is like, you should have these different categories or money dials. Figure out what you like to spend money on and go ahead and splurge in those areas, and then really pull back on the areas that you don't care about and don't.

Worry about feeling judged. So for example, I like to spend a lot of money on clothes and shoes and bags. certain people are like, you shouldn't do that, that's bad. But I've released myself from any of that guilt and I've set up my money dial. So for you, what does your rich life look like?

[00:33:56] Tori Dunlap: Yeah. Ramit has a, a, a huge impact on the way I manage money and the way I teach it. We call 'em value categories at her first center. K. So it's like three areas in your life that bring you the most joy that you wanna see your money going to. And then very similar to him, you spend most of your money there and then you don't spend a lot of your discretionary spend elsewhere.

So my three value categories are travel, food out. I am a huge foodie. I love going to restaurants and plants. Hmm. There's like probably 15 in this room. There's like one in the corner. I love them. They're my babies. I love spending money on them. I will buy their cute little pots. I will buy hangers for them.

Like I love my plants. Do I buy the occasional Starbucks? Yeah. Do I, you know, do sweater sale at TJ Maxx? Yeah, I'm in their like swimwear. However, I am not spending all of my money on those things because those are the things that are less important to me.

[00:34:49] Hala Taha: Yeah, and I think the big message here is don't feel guilt about what you love to spend money about.

Totally. Because it's your happiness, it's your life. Society tells you that you can spend money on travel, but you can't spend it on luxury and, and whatever. You know, society wants to kind of dictate, don't worry about that, and live your own happy, rich life. So speaking of another sort of tool that you talk about, you've got this concept of a money diary.

Can you explain to us what that is and the framework around that?

[00:35:17] Tori Dunlap: Yeah, it was a practice that I started doing when I would coach clients one-on-one, and it was this realization of, you know, I would ask people, okay, what money's coming in? And they could total that up for me usually, right? Like, okay, I'm getting paid this amount during this time and you know, maybe I have this side hustle.

Or if you're a business owner, right? I have, you know, these four clients and these are my revenue streams. And then I would say, okay, where is that money going? They would kind of be like, well, I think it's going to this. And then we would look at their credit card statements and they're like, uh, just kidding.

I have no idea where the hell my money went. I don't know. And if that feeling is your feeling of, I look at my bank account and I'm like, I don't know where my money went, then this is the practice for you. It's literally writing down every purchase you make, especially discretionary purchases for a period of time.

And it's not to shame you, it's more just to watch what behavior and what sort of mindset you have. So, Talk about this more in my book, but you do four things. You write down where you spent the money or what you spent it on. How much, so I went to Starbucks, I bought a $5 mocha. Right? And then why you made the purchase and how it made you feel.

I was meeting up with a friend and it made me feel great, 'cause I haven't seen her in a while. The why and how it made you feel is the transformational part because again, money's psychological. It's emotional. I need you to understand why you're making this purchase. Is it. I went out with my friends and I had a little too much to drink and I suddenly was buying shots for the entire bar.

Cool. Probably wasn't a great use of your money. Maybe it was. I don't know. For me, probably not a great use of my money. Now, am I shaming and judging myself? No, a hundred percent not. I'm just like, interesting. Okay. I did that because I maybe wanted this feeling of belonging or I wanted this feeling of. I am balling out and I can show people that I can buy an entire round.

Maybe it's okay. I bought this shade of pair of shoes I didn't need and didn't want because my boss made me feel like shit today. Right? And I was spending to emotionally cope. I think we could all, all, you know, find a place in our life where we did that. Especially like pandemic, right? I bought a $75 pregnancy pillow.

Am I pregnant? Am I planning on becoming pregnant? No. Did I need to feel something? Yes, yes. Was it a great purchase? Actually, yes, a hundred percent. I still use it all the time, but that's the thing is you have to start understanding my purchases. Even the ones that are minor are psychological and emotional, and what'll start happening is before you lay down that credit card or before you hit add to cart, you'll start going, okay, do I need this thing?

Do I actually want this thing? Because I want your hard earned money going to things that you actually love. It's your hard-earned money. It doesn't mean don't spend it like we were talking about before. It doesn't mean don't spend money. It just means spend your hard-earned money on things that light you on fire, and if it doesn't light you on fire.

We don't do lukewarm in 2023. We don't do lukewarm with spending with men. We don't do lukewarm, like we don't do lukewarm in 2023. We do things that light us on fire. So if that's something that you're like, I don't care, then don't worry about it.

[00:38:14] Hala Taha: Yeah, I really like that advice because what it does is it uncovers all these.

Things that you may have not realized in terms of what was actually driving your actions. And then it'll also uncover, this is genuine. I genuinely like doing this. This made me feel good. There was no like ulterior reason for why I did it. That's like in my subconscious mind So I really like this advice. Another piece of advice from your book Financial Feminist is this idea of a financial priority list and you give like a A one to I think four step. Outline of, of what you should tackle first. And I thought I could bring this up and kind of ask some follow up questions, make it more relevant to my audience.

So number one in this financial priority list is to start an emergency fund. So what are the details or recommendations around this fund and why do you think that's step number one?

[00:39:06] Tori Dunlap: Yeah, one of the misconceptions I hear a lot is I need to pay off my debt first before I save. I just so strongly disagree with that.

For a couple reasons. One, I don't want you going into more debt trying to pay for an emergency because one will come up, right? And the second is that we prioritize mental health at her first hundred K. And like we were talking about this before, of this feeling of stability or this feeling of choice.

There is something so soothing about your head, hitting the pillow at night and knowing that you're covered. You lose your job tomorrow, you get laid off, you're gonna be fine. A medical, unexpected medical cost comes up. You're gonna be fine or at least fine for a period of time, right? The emergency fund's there to tide you over.

So there's something so freeing about that, but also so comforting about that mentally, just knowing like, okay, I'm good. Your emergency fund should be at least three months of living expenses in a high yield savings account. It's a good starter emergency fund. That is our first step before we pay off any kind of debt, and that includes credit cards.

So that's priority number one, is that emergency fund in a high-yield savings account. Everybody listening, if you do not have a high yield savings account, you are losing amounts of money on interest. It's the easiest thing you can do to immediately better your life because it's just like a savings account except a higher yield.

It's just going to boost your savings. If your savings just gonna sit there, which is what we want, we may as well have it work harder for you. So that's priority number one. Priority number two is paying down debt. That is over 7% in interest. Why 7%? Well, that's the average amount we can expect in the stock market.

Seven to 8%. So if your debt is costing you more money than you could be earning somewhere else, that needs to be paid off First. Credit cards, every credit card is over 7% in interest, right? So we wanna start paying down our credit card debt next. Some student loans are, all credit cards are. So anything above 7%, start paying that down and making sure you're staying out of debt.

In the meantime, the third priority is kind of like a two-parter. Where you're saving for your retirement, you're starting to prioritize your retirement savings while also paying down your lower interest debt. Anything under that seven to 8%. So most student loans, car loans, mortgages. And then finally, as you're starting to save for retirement and as you're paying down your lower interest debt, start saving for what I call like the big life stuff, the new car, the house, the getting married, the having children, the starting a business, the retiring early, right?

The big things that you need to save for. The only thing that trumps this list, or that adjusts it a little bit is if you get a 4 0 1 K match at work, A match is, you know, if it's 3%, that means if you contribute 3% that your employer will match you at 3%, right? So we do a Lion King one and a half kind of situation, and it slides in right between one and two.

So one is that emergency fund, one and a half is getting that 4 0 1 K match because it's free money. And we're actually gonna do that before we start paying off our credit card debt.

[00:42:02] Hala Taha: Got it. Okay. Couple follow up questions here. A lot of my listeners are freelancers, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs. If there's no 4 0 1 k is there another alternative that you suggest?

[00:42:15] Tori Dunlap: A hundred percent. So we have a section in the book that breaks down retirement accounts for various different kinds of income sources. So W two, right? If you're a nine to fiver, if you get that 4 0 1 k, great. I R a, either a Roth or traditional I R A are great options. That is an individual or retirement account.

That's what I R a stands for. You can also open up an I R A. If you're a self-employed person. I have a Roth I r a. It's actually a great option for you because it's not tied to an employer, even your business. It is something that is yours. I believe the maximum this year is 6,500, unless you're over 55, so that's a great option.

There's also a various different self-employed options. There's actually a solo 4 0 1 K that you can open that works just like a 4 0 1 K, except you're your own sponsor 'cause you're your own business owner. The other thing that's really cool that I took advantage of when I was side hustling is what's called a SEP I R A A.

Sep I R A can be for full-time business owners or for people who are making some sort of money in a side business. When I was at my nine to five, I had my 4 0 1 k through work. I had my Roth I r a, and then I actually had my SEP i r a through my business. So when you're a full-time business owner, a full-time freelancer, you gotta pick one or the other, either a solo 4 0 1 K or a SEP I r a.

But the SEP I R a contribution limits are something in the $60,000 range this year. So it's a really, really great opportunity for you to start saving for retirement. Very similar to your question. I think a lot of people who are self-employed or freelancers are like, there's no options for me. There's actually, I would argue better options for you.

I know that when I was working my nine to five, sometimes if my nine to five didn't offer a 4 0 1 k at all, and so I didn't have that option. When you are your own employer, you can open up whatever retirement plan makes sense for you, right? And for your business.

[00:43:56] Hala Taha: Hmm. This is all really, really great advice.

You're so knowledgeable. I mean, like, screw everyone who says like, oh, you, you only have a theater background.

[00:44:05] Tori Dunlap: Oh, I mean, I can show you bank statements. It's always men who you know are like user, it's anonymous users and they're literally, I got one last night that's like, how are you qualified? And I was like, does the New York Times bestselling author and millionaire business owner work?

And he was like, no. And I was like, okay. We can compare bank statements. I'm doing fine. Bless and block. Wish you the best.

[00:44:26] Hala Taha: Okay, so another question, and this is related to debt and I really want you to try to dig deep in explaining this 'cause I think this is really important. Sometimes it makes sense to pay off debt.

You did allude to this a bit. Sometimes it makes sense to pay off debt as soon as you can. Sometimes it makes sense to actually let that debt linger and leverage your cash differently and make more money on your money. Talk to us about that, because I think a lot of people get this wrong.

[00:44:53] Tori Dunlap: This word you just used, leverage.

So the word debt is associated in our society with shame. Even the very people we have sought out to teach us how to manage money. My, my nemesis Dave Ramsey, right, as he has told you that debt is wrong and bad and needs to be eradicated immediately. Debt is for poor people. But when you get to a certain level of financial standing, debt has a new name, it gets like fancy Gucci shoes and suddenly it's called leverage.

It's the same thing, but leverage is this idea of, you know, you'll see like Adele. Buy this $30 million house and take out a mortgage. We know Adele has $30 million. Right? She could buy that house cash. Why doesn't she? She doesn't, because she could be using the money that she would put towards buying that in cash towards a different investment that's going to make her more money.

So she's willing to take on the mortgage, which at the time, I think when she bought the house was like 4% interest because she's gonna make more money somewhere else. The question that I was alluding to before of like, do I pay off debt or do I invest? Depends on your interest rate. So if it's less than you could be making in the stock market, it actually makes sense to prioritize investing.

Now, if you're in credit card debt and that's 25% interest, nothing's offering you 25% interest, right? So you need to start paying that off first. I will also say one of the biggest things that I believe is personal finance is personal, and that's the math on this. If you are the kind of person where you're like, I know there would be a significant boost in my life if I didn't have to worry about this anymore.

Cool, pay it off, but don't neglect your retirement. This is, again, Dave Ramsey is like, all of your debt needs to be gone. But most people have mortgages that they will be paying off for decades. So, okay, cool. You buy a house hypothetically at 30, you pay it off when you're 50, then you start saving for retirement.

Like that doesn't work. Financially doesn't work. You're not gonna have enough time to be able to contribute for retirement. So don't ever feel like debt is this thing that needs to be eradicated at all costs. There are variations of debt, right? Some is debt is quote unquote like worse than others because of that interest rate.

It's okay to have student loans. It's okay to have a mortgage. I had a car loan for a long time because it was like 2% interest. I can make a lot of money investing that cash I would've put down. Towards paying that off faster or towards, you know, just not having a loan at all, and I can put that towards investing and make that a hundred K that I did

[00:47:31] Hala Taha: To me, this is such a great strategy that so many people are not thinking about.

Look at all your debt, see what your interest rates are, see where you can put that money differently and make more money and really plan it out. So I have another question for you, Tori,

So I'm an entrepreneur and I've got this mentality in terms of like, I don't care about retirement. I'm like a hustler. I always figure out how to make money.

I'm not inspired to save money for retirement. What inspires me is I'll buy whatever I want and then I'm like, all right, I'll just make more money, you know?

And I figured out how to make more money. And I invest a lot in my own business, right? And take a lot of risks because it's served me well. I take risks and then I make higher rewards typically, right? And I'm investing myself continually, whether that's my own company, starting new companies, investing in teammates, whatever it is.

And so I guess my question is, this whole idea of saving for retirement feels so passive to me and feels like very uninspiring, and I just love to hear your thoughts about that.

[00:48:34] Tori Dunlap: It's really interesting. Thank you for sharing two things. The average person like you will not be able to retire if you don't invest.

So to get the average person investing, and maybe this will connect with you. I try to have them picture what, 65 year old you looks like, because there is this arbitrary thing where you're just like, I'm saving for this thing that's so far away. Especially if you're in like your like twenties or thirties.

You're like, I am. What's the point? 65 year old Tori Nana. Tori is going to be drinking Savian Blanc with lunch. She's going to be flirting with her much younger Pilates instructor named Luca. She has a Tuscan villa where she adopts dogs. She's somehow more badass than I am right now and I can't wait to meet her, but she doesn't get all of that unless I do some heavy lifting right now.

So again, we were talking about this as a perfect, like roundabout we were talking about before at the very beginning of the interview about. How do I attach something emotional so that I am motivated to do it? I literally can picture 65 year old nator with her cute little handbag and her little wrinkles, but she's just so excited to be alive.

I have to save money in order to get her to that place. On the flip side, I'm 28. I will never have to work another day if I don't want to because I have saved enough. I have the option to. Burn all of H F K to the ground tomorrow if I wanted to, and never work again and still be fine because I have saved and invested enough money from all of the money I've made.

Now, I won't do that for many reasons. I love what I do. It continues to make a huge impact, right? Like I won't do that. I will continue to make a lot of money. The business will continue to make a lot of money, but I have the option as someone who isn't even 30 yet. To stop working work is now optional.

There is something so freeing about that. So in the same way that it sounds like it is freeing for you to be like, I can just make more money. I feel that way in some aspects where it's kind of cool to just be like, yeah, I could put something on sale and make 20 K in a day, that's great, but I also get so much stability and happiness and excitement out of the baller ass move that is like, yeah, I don't have to work.

So in terms of that mindset shift for me, I started reading about financial independence when I was in my early twenties, and it was less like, especially in the early days, that a hundred K, it was less about how much money can I make or how much money can I earn, and more like what can I put away so that I have options and I can save as much as possible, invest as much as possible while still traveling and going out to restaurants and having the experience that I want as somebody in their twenties.

So I think that that for me was the kind of shift. The ability to have this money saved that I, yeah. Work is optional.

[00:51:21] Hala Taha: Yeah. And I think that we should all take this, what do you call it, Nana Vision.

[00:51:25] Tori Dunlap: Nana, yeah. I literally call it in the book like grandparent you or like Nana, you like, what does that look like?

And again, like we were talking about, Ramit your rich life, like your Nana version of you is gonna look different, right. I've asked people in workshops before, like, what does Nana U look like? And for some people, yeah, it's very similar to mine. It's like adopting dogs and like not giving a fuck. And for other people it's just like, I feel content.

I have enough money, I feel content. I'm not stressed. And I'm like, great. That's amazing. That's amazing.

[00:51:53] Hala Taha: I think mine is living in Miami with like a pink Lamborghini or something. Perfect, perfect, perfect.

[00:51:58] Tori Dunlap: And it doesn't mean I sacrifice everything now, it just means that I am balancing that to make sure that she's not living in poverty, that she's not not having a good time because I didn't do a little bit of the heavy lifting now.

[00:52:10] Hala Taha: Okay, so let's close out this interview talking about earning potential since we just brought that up, and how it's not just about saving investing. We talk a lot about that on the podcast. You started your business as a side hustle, so I'd love to close out the interview getting your best side hustle advice.

Why do you think side hustles are something smart that people should consider, and what are your suggestions in terms of getting started with a side hustle?

[00:52:35] Tori Dunlap: Wanna acknowledge that sometimes a side hustle is just a fancy word for a second job, and it's not a choice, it's a necessity. And if you are the person who's working a second job because you cannot afford life, it might feel a little cringey to hear me talk about side hustles.

This nice fancy thing where you can diversify your income, where you're just like, no, I need a second job. So wanna acknowledge if that's you. I see you and I'm here to support you. And I know that fucking sucks. In terms of actual side hustle, if you're like, I wanna diversify my income, or maybe I wanna be an entrepreneur someday, or maybe I just wanna explore what this looks like.

I'll walk you through the exercise that I walk people through. In my book, I call it the three T's time, talent, treasure time. How much time do you realistically have for this thing? A lot of people are like, oh, I'll start a side hustle. I'll be a business owner. And then they look at their calendar and they're like, I have no time to do that.

How much time are you realistically able to give? Hmm. For talent. Do you have something that you have already cultivated, a skill or a talent that you've already cultivated that you wanna continue doing? Or do you wanna cultivate something else? Right. For me, I was a social media marketer. I was good at that.

I was good at storytelling. That lent itself very well to being an entrepreneur. I had already had experience as well, being an entrepreneur. For some people, they're like, I wanna do something completely different, or I want to be something that's more creative. 'cause my job isn't. It's gonna take longer to get off the ground, most likely, because you'll have to cultivate that skill.

And then finally, treasure is exactly what it sounds like of, is this a thing you want to make money doing? I wish somebody had told me when I was 22 that not every hobby needs to be monetized.

Not everything you do that brings you joy, needs to make you money. In fact, there should be things in your life that don't make you money. If this is a, I wanna make money off of this, or I need to make money off of this, becoming an entrepreneur is not immediately going to make you money. So if you want to be someone who is running their own business, but you need money right now, probably not the best option.

I didn't see money from her first a hundred K for a couple years, and I didn't see substantial money from it until like year four. It did not pay my bills until year four. So that's kind of what you have to balance. If you're like, I need money tomorrow, catering a couple days, right? Or becoming a part-time barista at Starbucks, there's things that you can do more immediately to start making you money versus these things that are like the long-term plays that you hope eventually will make you a ton of money.

You just won't see it on the front end. So that's the kind of questions to ask yourself to figure out what side hustle is right for you. Time, how much time do I have and how much time am I willing to spend? What kind of talents do I need in order to do the thing that I want to do? Can I just do freelance social media if I'm a graphic designer, okay, I'll just become, you know, a freelance graphic designer on the side.

And then finally, do you want this thing to make you money? And if so, how quickly does it have to make you money? Because that's gonna shift what you choose.

[00:55:28] Hala Taha: I think for me, when it comes to side hustle, something that I want my listeners to remember is that getting skills and experiences is so key before you go out and branch and start your own business and company.

And so don't underestimate working in corporate or working for another person or getting an internship and just really trying to get real life experience that you can then monetize. But you have to be good at something first. Typically when you're starting a side hustle. I definitely wanna call that out.

The other thing I wanna call out is that not all side hustles are sexy and not all side hustles need to be something that you're passionate about. Can you talk to us about that?

[00:56:05] Tori Dunlap: Yeah. I don't know if it's a lie that's fed to us that your work has to be your calling. No. There are many things that you can do outside of work that give you happiness and as long as you feel like you're compensated fairly and you have a general like of a thing.

That doesn't have to be your life's work. That is really like America. You go anywhere in Europe and they're like, yeah, I work and it's fine, but I work so I can live. Right? A lot of us here are just living to work, so your identity does not have to be your job, and I would argue shouldn't.

I can take that advice for myself because my identity has become my job and become what I do. So when you're thinking about making money, yeah, it definitely doesn't have to be sexy. It doesn't have to be the thing that looks good on Instagram. It can be something that's making you money and giving you more financial security.

And it doesn't have to be your life's work or your like capital P passion. It could just be something that makes you money. And again, as long as you feel like I am like motivated somewhat, right, and it aligns with my values, or it's something that I feel like I'm getting compensated fairly at. Cool. Go for it.

[00:57:12] Hala Taha: Hmm. Tori, I end my show with two questions. The first one is, what is one actionable thing are young and profits can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

[00:57:24] Tori Dunlap: Automate everything you possibly can. Automate your savings, automate your investments, automate your bills. If. Something has the ability to be automated, do it. I think we believe we get this gold star if we make things harder than they have to be. No, that's not true. Especially when it comes to personal finance.

If the option is available to you, automate it.

[00:57:43] Hala Taha: I love that. And what is your secret to profiting and life? And this can go beyond financial.

[00:57:49] Tori Dunlap: I have realized over the past couple years that confidence is a self-worth issue, but no one's talking about it like that. The biggest question, which is very flattering that I get asked other than a financial question, is like, how are you so confident?

Or like, how do you build your own confidence? I believe myself worthy of every opportunity, of every, every piece of love and belonging when I walk into a date, it is not, oh my God, is this person gonna like me? It is. How does this person fit in with my life? I'm not worried about how I'm presenting myself.

I'm just trying to figure out. Is this person worthy of me? Is this relationship worthy of my time? When I walk into a meeting with a client, I am wondering how is this person going to see the value and the worth that I offer? And if they're not, it's not of interest to me. So in terms of building confidence, financial confidence, career confidence, relationship confidence, it is a self worthiness issue.

If you believe you're self worthy of love and opportunity and belonging and of every good thing. You will not be shocked when all of that starts happening in your life. I have never once questioned if I'm worthy of those things. I joke when I walk into a new therapist's office. There are many other things we're gonna have to talk about, but worthiness is not one of them.

So when you believe yourself worthy of those opportunities, you will show up differently in every aspect of your life.

[00:59:07] Hala Taha: That's a very beautiful attitude to have. Tori, where can our listeners learn more about you? Your new book, your podcast.

[00:59:16] Tori Dunlap: Thank you so much for having me. I am at her first hundred K on all the socials, H E R F I R S T 1 0 0 K.

You can also go to her first hundred k.com and I host the Financial Feminist podcast and I wrote the book, financial Feminist.

[00:59:28] Hala Taha: Amazing. We'll stick all those links in the show notes. Thank you so much, Tori. I really enjoyed this conversation.

[00:59:34] Tori Dunlap: Thank you. And you can come here on my show, which we're recording in like a half hour after this.

So you're coming on financial feminist, so if you want more of you and I together, that's where to go.

[00:59:44] Hala Taha: I love it. I can't wait. At the end of the day, young improfiters, most things are psychological, and that includes money. It especially includes money. That's one of the key takeaways I had from my conversation with Tori Dunlap today. You need to figure out your relationship with money, understand how to navigate the emotional and psychological sides of money

that's also why the narratives we're told about money, and especially that women are told about money, from the time that we're young can have such an impact on our future financial well being. As Torrey argues, money is a form of liberation. Having it means freeing yourself from the worries and unhealthy thoughts about having enough of it., from the guilt or the shame you might get from spending it.

Being financially confident also changes how you can show up in your relationships, in your career, and in your business. When you're no longer financially dependent upon anyone else, you're free to make better decisions for you to control your own fate. it sounds pretty good, right? Here are A few of the actionable strategies that Tori told us about, that can help you realize your money goals

First, stop worrying about whether it's impolite to talk about money.

Not talking about money only helps keep you underpaid or overworked. likewise, according to Tory, whoever said that money can't buy you happiness was dead wrong. Money can a hundred percent buy you safety and stability, and for most people, that's happiness.

Second, spend time thinking about your first money memory. It can be a formative moment for a lot of people. Ask yourself, how does my first money memory now shape the way I'm managing money today? Third, keep a money diary.

And don't just write down what you spend money on. Also put down how spending money made you feel. And don't be afraid to spend your hard earned money on things that truly light you on fire. Finally, start an emergency fund. That's at least three months of living expenses and put it in a high yield savings account.

. Thanks for listening to this episode of young and profiting podcast. If you listened, learned, and profited from my conversation with Tori Dunlap, then please share this episode with your friends and family.

Also, why not drop us a five star review on Apple podcast? We have over 4, 000 reviews because we have such incredible listeners like you. If you're looking for me, you can find me on Instagram at Yap with Hala or LinkedIn. Just search my name. it's Hala Taha. I also want to shout out my amazing production team, my executive producer, Jason, Amelia, our assistant producer, Furkan and Hesham for helping us with guest outreach, Greta and Sean for supporting us with research and Kriti, Garima and Ash for executing our ad operations.

You guys are awesome. I really appreciate all your hard work. This is your host, Hala a. k. a. the podcast princess And the LinkedIn queen, signing off.