#143: The Future of Sleep with Matteo Franceschetti

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[00:01:41] You're listening to YAP, Young And Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Hala Taha. And on Young And Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. [00:02:00] My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life.

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[00:02:43] This week on YAP. We're chatting with Matteo Franceschetti. Mateo is the co-founder and CEO of Eight Sleep. The sleep fitness company, that's pioneering sleep nearables technology with products like their smart mattress and smart mattress cover. [00:03:00] Mateo is a long-time athlete who has an obsession for recovery and performance.

[00:03:05] While researching the most efficient ways to optimize recovery. He realized that there was an incredible need for smarter. The products in the market. And there, his idea for Eight Sleep was born. Mateo, his company specializes in sleep technology, that helps our users fall asleep and stay asleep for longer.

[00:03:24] Their flagship product is a mattress cover that can control the temperature of your bed and can even gently vibrate to wake you up. And it even comes with an app that can track your sleep cycle and sleep habits. Their tech is literally. The future of sleep. In today's episode, we discuss the impact that sleep deprivation has not only on our health, but also on our economy.

[00:03:47] It costs businesses, billions of dollars and millions of working hours every single year. We'll then dive into the science behind why getting quality sleep is actually way more important than getting a large [00:04:00] quantity of sleep. We'll get clarity around the impact of thermal regulation, our sleep environment, and our quality of life.

[00:04:08] And lastly, we'll step into the future and hear what Mateo thinks sleep will look like 20 years from now, if you're curious about the growing sleep tech industry, how to get involved and how to better sleep with new advancements, this episode is for you.

[00:04:24] Hey Mateo, welcome to Young And Profiting Podcast.

[00:04:27] So excited to have you here.

[00:04:29] Matteo Franceschetti: Thank you for having me.

[00:04:31] Hala Taha: Yeah, me too. So we've had lots of introductory episodes on sleep. We had Dr. Daniel Gartenberg. We had Dr. Meeta Singh and in those episodes, we really talked about the basics of sleep, how to get better sleep. But in this interview, I really want to talk about the future of sleep.

[00:04:46] Which is such an exciting topic in space. And you are the perfect person to talk about this. You are the CEO of Eight Sleep. It's a really buzzing sleep technology company in the nearables category. And just really excited to talk [00:05:00] to you about all the different aspects of the feature of sleep. But before we get started, I did want to talk about your childhood.

[00:05:05] So it turns out. From Italy and you were really into sports growing up, you were doing go-kart racing, you were skiing, you're playing tennis, you did a lot of different sports. And so I'd love to understand. How your background in sports helped to drive you as an entrepreneur later on.

[00:05:22] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, sure. Yeah. I was just kid racer for some time.

[00:05:26] Then I played tennis for quite a while and then I stopped the racing go-karts so that was a pretty fun, it was key for what we did and what we still do because on one side. I have always been in dress and recovery and performance as an athlete. So that is how this mindset that we have a sleep was formed when I was just a teenager.

[00:05:49] And then if you also look at that one branding, not the way our branding is designed is around this concept of slick fitness. And we'll have a lot of athletes as brand ambassadors. And that is still [00:06:00] because of not this passion for sport and energy activity and performance.

[00:06:04] Hala Taha: Very cool. And so I also learned that you were a lawyer when you first started out, you graduated Magna cum Laude.

[00:06:13] You have a licensed to practice law in Italy. He passed the board in Italy. So then what was the transition? Why did you decide to go from lawyer to then sleep technology, CEO? What was the path that.

[00:06:24] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, it was the lawyer for two very large firms, a UK law firms. And I was there for around five years.

[00:06:31] I was doing security cases and IPO and I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. It's really hard to become an entrepreneur because it's really hard to raise money. I come from a family of lawyers and so that was just the most obvious path for me, but then a certain point in Italy, there was this opportunity to start developing solar plants because there was a specific feeding time.

[00:06:55] So a lot of private equity plans came to Italy. And that was the perfect [00:07:00] opportunity to stop the business that could be profitable. See if they won. And I had a lot of expertise in project finance, which was the expertise required. And that is how I became an entrepreneur and it true companies in solar.

[00:07:13] And then I stopped at Eight Sleep. Typically it was my first company and the company that probably matches my profile the most again, because of my past, as a, as an naturally.

[00:07:25] Hala Taha: Super cool. What was the Genesis of Eight Sleep? Were you having a sleeping problem yourself and then that's why you want it to solve the problem.

[00:07:32] How did you think of the idea?

[00:07:34] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, it was the combination of two things on one side, his concept of rest and performance and the cohort. And so I started looking into sleep and I started wondering, why do I have to sleep eight hours? Can I sleep six hours? And so I stopped reading a bunch of nonmedical and clinical studies and papers and magazine, and I understood that there is no real reason why I was sleeping.

[00:07:54] Eight hours is just that. That is what it takes for our body, [00:08:00] but our body isn't even efficient as to wondering why are you going last case they can meet tomorrow with the no rockets, but there is no technology and it's my life. And that is when I started exploring. And so now I want a vision is really about two things.

[00:08:15] One water compress your sleep. So what if you could save only six hours and get more rest than when you were sleeping eight hours and on the other side, and you also want to save your life, which means during that time, doesn't matter if it's six hours or eight hours. What can we do to measure your healthand scan on your body, to detect early signs of illnesses or to let you know how you can improve your health and performance?

[00:08:39] Hala Taha: It's so interesting when you look at sleep, something like the mattress up until lately with companies like Eight Sleep, hasn't really been innovated on for hundreds of years. It's like we're sleeping on the same thing, that people slept on 200 years ago. It's ridiculous.

[00:08:52] It's almost like, this area I feel is going to be as important to us. And as lucrative as things like [00:09:00] nutrition and exercise and sleep is going to be this whole new category, that for a long time was really ignored by scientists and ignored by technologist as well. Would you agree?

[00:09:10] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, absolutely. Health is based on three pillars.

[00:09:13] That is nutrition. There is fitness. And so they sleep. But if your domain and sleep is really the foundational piece, because if you sleep two hours, there is no fitness. As there is no nutrition, you will start craving junk food and you will not be able to train. And so sleep is really the first step, and that is why we came up with this definition and concept of sleep fitness.

[00:09:33] And so sleep fitness means that going to bed. It's not like wasting time, but it's actually should be considered in the same way of how you use your time. When you go to the gym, right? You are investing your time. You're putting the effort to go and do something good for your body and your healt the same way.

[00:09:50] These eight hours, which is substantially the equivalent off and flies from the east coast to Europe. So it's a pretty long flight that you do every single night [00:10:00] and that there's time that you invest in your health. And so don't sacrifice that because that time will be used by your body to be recover, regenerate, and make sure that in the morning you have a full power energy.

[00:10:13] Hala Taha: I love that sleep fitness. That's a new term that we haven't really heard. And we've learned on other podcasts, that really famous athletes like LeBron James he'll sleep 10 to 12 hours. When he's in training season, because he knows that sleep is so important to ultimate performance. Before we get into some of the problems.

[00:10:31] That a lack of sleep, because I do want to talk about some of the awards that Eight Sleep has one, and I want to understand, what makes your company so innovative. So from my understanding in the past few years, you guys have received the best invention award from Time Magazine, the fitness award by GQ.

[00:10:48] Sleep award by Men's Health. That is absolutely incredible. Those are amazing awards to have achieved. So what makes your product so innovative and new in this space? What is [00:11:00] it that you guys do exactly?

[00:11:01] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, we'll do a couple of things. So on one side, we change our body temperature. During the night, there is plenty of medical evidence that by changing your body temperature, we can improve your sleep performance.

[00:11:12] So you will follow the faster, you will get more deep sleep, more REM last week taps and less stops centers. So your sleep efficiency will be weigh high. At the same time we track everything about your health. Meaning there are sensors embedded in our device that can measure your heart rate, your respiration and your sleep.

[00:11:31] We sell two products, they have the same technology, different form factor. One is a color that can be installed on any mattress. So you can have to repeat your current down the mattress without technology, or you can buy our whole smart mattress. One stuff's at 1,500. The other stuff's at 2500. Technology is the same, just a map of, do you want to change mattress, not your bed.

[00:11:52] And because of these two features, and I think now so many people are raving about the product publicly more

[00:12:00] than thousands and thousands of people loving the product. That is how we got the work.

[00:12:05] Hala Taha: Amazing. And I just got a new aide sleep mattress and profile cover, and I am psyched because I've had insomnia in the past.

[00:12:13] So I can't wait to talk about the results on the podcast and let everybody know how it went. So let's talk about the seriousness. Of sleep loss and all of its effects. So in past podcasts, we've discussed how a lack of sleep can cause mood changes. It can cause depression, it can cause Alzheimer's, it can cause heart disease.

[00:12:32] It literally is the root cause of so many different diseases, but there's also some major economic factors that sleep can impact. When it comes to the workplace. So for example, $680 billion a year is lost to sleep deprivation globally. And 10 million working hours are lost in the US due to sleep related absences.

[00:12:54] And I can attest to this when I used to work at Disney streaming services, when I would call it sick, most of the time it was because I had [00:13:00] insomnia and I was like, I can't go to work today. I had insomnia all night. Yeah. Call out sick, but really it was insomnia, but nobody talks about the sleep problems.

[00:13:09] It's almost like you feel embarrassed. So you don't say it was insomnia. You just pretend you have a cold, right. So I can attest to the fact that there's lots of people who are calling out of work because they have insomnia and to combat these issues. What's exciting is that the sleep technology sector is due to triple by 2026.

[00:13:27] It's going from 11 billion in 2019. 32 billion in 2026, huge opportunity. So I want to dig into that before I do. What are your thoughts on the impacts on the economy and the potential for growth?

[00:13:42] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah. And I think it's connected to something you were saying early on, right? For 2000 years and nothing changes.

[00:13:47] I think there was a first small revolution, four or five years ago where just the purchase experience was changed to see brands selling directly online. But at the end of the [00:14:00] day, nothing was changed in terms of sleep quality. While I think the next wave of no sleep disruption is what is happening now.

[00:14:08] Finally, technology is really enhanced. Our sleep performance. And at the end of the day, sleep is their greatest hack to improve your health and improve your daily performance, right? You wake fully refreshed, all the potential negative consequences you just mentioned, but on the other side, you will crave less junk food.

[00:14:27] So there's blank, different medical evidence. That's a correlation between the type of food that you crave and sleep deprivation. And as you have more energy, you will be more inclined to then train and take care of your body during the day. So it was really a circle where the three things are connected, but I was in stopped in the morning and the morning is based on the night.

[00:14:47] Hala Taha: It sounds like a Keystone habit. This is something that Charles Duhigg talks about. That basically says when you form, it's a habit that basically sets off a domino effect for many other healthy habits. So it sounds like getting [00:15:00] better sleep could be a Keystone habit, which is super interesting. The next thing I want to talk about is the opportunity for jobs and careers in this space.

[00:15:09] So you are somebody who doesn't, as far as my knowledge, you don't have a technology background. You don't have a science background, you don't even have a business background, but you had a passion and you decided to become an entrepreneur in this space. So let's pause there and just talk about how can somebody who doesn't have a background in an area then become an entrepreneur of a very successful company.

[00:15:31] Cause I've seen. People do this. It's more of a personality thing. So talk to us about how you became an entrepreneur for something. That you didn't have a background with and what you did, like the steps that you did to accomplish.

[00:15:43] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, it's very classic there. There's really two factors. I think the first is personality.

[00:15:47] I think you probably have learned not to be an entrepreneur. You need to have a certain personality. You need to have a bias for action. You need to have the ability to go through a lot of pain if you will. Things will not [00:16:00] always work out as you plan. And so you need to be a resourceful and the second factor, which is connected to the lack of experience.

[00:16:07] There's plenty of evidence that many times the lack of experience can become an advantage. Because when you lack experience, you challenge the status quo or you make questions. And an example is when I started questioning, why do we have to sleep eight hours? Maybe if I would have studied sleep all my life, I would have given for granted while has that in my case, coming from a completely different dimension and war.

[00:16:29] Why, let me look into that and let me challenge that assumption. And so then once you're starting challenging an assumption, you need to dig deep. So you need to be curious and you still need to come back to the first principle physics, physiology, whatever, but you look at that.

[00:16:48] Hala Taha: I love that. I think that's a really great point. So talk to us about the different careers that are involved in this space.

[00:16:54] What are the skills that you think people, who want to get into the sleep technology space should have? [00:17:00] What are the different opportunities out there for people?

[00:17:03] Matteo Franceschetti: At the end of the day, you just need to curious. Even when I looked at my team, I would say that probably 80% of my team is doing something different from what they started at.

[00:17:12] Amazing growth. People didn't study growth and they to say it doesn't even exist a college, but they were curious, they were passionate about the topic and then they figured that out. So my advisees, as long as you're passionate about something and you're resourceful as there is plenty of opportunity in particular right now, the economy is really good.

[00:17:32] So every company is trying to hire smart people. So you just need to cut through the noise and prove that. Holy grail. When I talk to people I always get from greatness and it doesn't matter if it was, what happened is it was nine and non-professional environment. Just groom in that you are unique in the world.

[00:17:51] If you have that uniqueness, I'm sure that you will have it all. So that Eight Sleep.

[00:17:56] Hala Taha: So I want to talk about the science of sleep and get [00:18:00] into things like REM sleep and Thermo regulation and Thermo neutrality. And some of these words that probably a lot of my listeners know nothing about. And I want to unpack that for everyone.

[00:18:11] So let's start with REM sleep. So REM means rapid eye movement, and there are five stages of sleep and you can categorize them in non rapid. And rapid eye movement from my understanding you're the expert here. So let me know if I'm wrong. Could you first help us understand what the difference is between non rapid eye movement sleep and rapid eye movement sleep?

[00:18:32] So the difference between non REM and REM.

[00:18:35] Matteo Franceschetti: So the REM is the part where oversimplified, right? Who was said to use the ground level, try to explain the thing to your grandma and can be successful. But the REM is substantially when you dream. And that is the moment where your brain is reorganizing all the information from the date.

[00:18:55] And usually that there is your work on 60 to 90 minute [00:19:00] cycles for sleep. And their is a prevalence of certain phases or stages based on the part of the night. So usually you tend to have more REM in the second part of this. The first part of the night is that you can have no REM. No REM includes what is usually called deep sleep.

[00:19:17] And the sleep is when your body is more recovering physical. The difference between the two is usually REM phase. Your body doesn't move. So your brain activates any body control because you have dream and so otherwise you will move and if you were live in the dream and so your body is standing still, but your heart rate is still very accelerated because you're leaving an experience in your own brain and in the dream.

[00:19:45] Instead in deep sleep, your body is just slowing down to recover physically regenerate cells and clean up cells.

[00:19:56] Hala Taha: So interesting. So when you're tossing and turning, you're [00:20:00] not in REM at all.

[00:20:01] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah. There is no way. In REM you are standing still, whatever is your position. You're not moving at all, but your heart is still accelerate and because you are leaving and we have total experience.

[00:20:11] Hala Taha: And then is there a certain amount of REM sleep that we should be getting every single night?

[00:20:16] Matteo Franceschetti: Yes.

[00:20:17] The bars from person to person, how tired you are, but usually you will say. Minimum 15 to 18% after 25%. That is the range. Usually the optimum range is 20 to 25%.

[00:20:31] Hala Taha: And would you say that there's benefits to increasing, the amount of REM sleep that you get every night is the goal to get more REM sleep or does that not really matter?

[00:20:45] Matteo Franceschetti: Both of them. They cover the faction. One is more focused on regenerating. If you will, a your brain, the other one to regenerate your body after night, if they work physical work and mental work. So those are the

[00:21:00] two most important factors. Everything else to me is just almost a subsidiary or justice, something that is there because the body is inefficient.

[00:21:12] And that is no transition for the body in between these two phases. So when you look at light sleep and all the other non-brand, is different from deep sleep that's, to me is just inefficiency that this part of our body.

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[00:22:50] That's super interesting. So let's move on to Thermo regulations. This is something that Eight Sleep is like super known for. Basically pioneering is Thermo regulation, [00:23:00] and I want to understand, first of all, what Thermo regulation and Thermo neutrality is.

[00:23:07] Matteo Franceschetti: It's a great topic. So your body temperature changes during the night.

[00:23:12] So when you hear people say, oh, you should sleep at 68 degrees. That's just false. It's not true. It might be a ride for an hour, but because your body temperature changes during the night, temperatures should change accordingly. So what we do is we are not reinventing the wheel. We just help your body, to change its own temperature during the night to maximize the defense.

[00:23:35] And so the first part, he grew up doing deep sleep. We tried to pull you as much as possible, right? Because there is medical evidence that they called environment in deep sleep, will maximize sleep while his study is focusing on neutrality. So you need to be in an environment that is not full and it's not hot.

[00:23:55] And the reason is your brain is the activating [00:24:00] certain faction of the body, right? The function that activates is temperature control of your body. So if it's too hot, it's too cold. The brain will see that you could die with temperature, the activated, the body, temperature, the activity. And so it will not let you follow.

[00:24:19] And so machine learning models and AI models I'm trying to achieve this thermal. So your brain will feel that your body is in a safe condition and will maximize your franchise.

[00:24:33] Hala Taha: This really is like the future of sleep. So I run really cold all the time. I feel that compared to the average person or my partners, when I'm sleeping, I said, I'm always cold.

[00:24:45] I'm like, they're hot. So how does that work? So we have a different body temperature that they need to fall asleep. For example, I love to like always sleep in a sweatshirt and most people would like, hate that.

[00:24:56] Matteo Franceschetti: 50% of the capitals, they have [00:25:00] different temperature preferences. So want this happening to you and your partner.

[00:25:05] And the reason is this is another important thing. Sleep needs to be personalised. Everyone is different, right? It's different based on age, based on gender, vision metabolism, different factors, right? For women is also different before and after menopause, for example, right? Because in menopause you will have very likely hot flashes.

[00:25:27] And so that is another problem that we solve. So your partner can sleep in a very cold environment. You can sleep in a warm environment. You don't need to wear your sweatshirt, but you will still feel comfortable and cozy.

[00:25:39] Hala Taha: Okay. So something that I want my listeners to really understand is the experience of smart mattresses, because I think that this is really innovative.

[00:25:48] And I think this is really where the future of sleep is going. So walk us through what it's like to use a smart mattress. What are some of the things that you would do differently when you go to sleep? As opposed to just sleeping on a traditional

[00:26:00] mattresses.

[00:26:00] Matteo Franceschetti: So the beauty of these is first. You don't have to change anything.

[00:26:05] You don't have to change habits, right? Just go to bath. As you did last night, the difference is the mattress, the bags or the colorer right? Because again, we sell a cooler, the characters of your mattress of the whole mattress, but whatever you pick technology is the same. So you go to bed and the bed is ready for you.

[00:26:21] So there is a temperature setting that you love. Doesn't matter if it's cold or warm, it can be anywhere between 55 degrees and one 10 degrees. So I'm really cold to really hot. Then as you fall asleep, the temperature will keep changing during the night to maximize your sleep performance. So you will always feel that the temperature is really comfortable, but at the same time, optimize for you.

[00:26:43] Then before waking up, one of the teachers we have that people love is migration. So we can wake you up with a soft vibration. So there is no sound. I always hate sound alarms. Now they just go off at the worst time when you're in deep sleep. So this [00:27:00] vibration will wake you gently. And then once you get out of bed, that you can see all your stats and this stats not only about sleep. How many hours you slept and percentage of deeper brand, but even more important.

[00:27:12] There are a lot of stats about your heart rate. And the reason why that is important is your heart rate stats are indicative of how much you recover. In particular, our HRV, which is hard. It's everybody ability and HR they're are both indicative of how the rest of you are. So you will have a full picture of how rested you are in the morning that you can combine with how you feel.

[00:27:33] Hala Taha: So how about other nearables? So we're talking about nearables technology right now, which are physical things that are around us from my understanding, that can help us improve our sleep in this case. So mattress is one thing, then I can imagine that lights are another near bubble technology that people can work on and even like humidifiers.

[00:27:55] So can you talk to us about some of the opportunities in the nearables space and maybe some things that you're

[00:28:00] thinking about at Eight Sleep.

[00:28:01] Matteo Franceschetti: Outside of what we already do, or there are another couple of ways you can improve your sleep. One is by again, controlling the environment, as you were just saying. And then you have future, you will see as a controlling temperature or light noise humidity, and maybe even other factors in that can not disclose now, but you will sleep in an environment that is fully optimized based on your needs.

[00:28:22] Again, it's really personalized. And then there's one. The other thing that we do, and I didn't mention earlier, we also provide you within insight. So we have data about your day that we can have access to apple or any other wearable that you wear. And our machine learning and data science model they will look at when you sleep the best.

[00:28:44] So I'll give you an example. For example, it might be that if you train in the morning, you get more deep sleep than when you train in the afternoon or in the evening. Or is it plenty medical evidence that alcohol and caffeine, they have a major impact on your sleep quality. And so we might be able to tell [00:29:00] you look all the time that you have alcohol, your sleep quality decreases by 20%.

[00:29:05] And so there is a sort of digital coaching function, that we tell you what works well and what doesn't for. You can actually nicely performance.

[00:29:14] Hala Taha: So how does humidity impact our sleep? I know I mentioned this before. I think we've heard a lot about like how light impacts our circuiting rhythm and things like that.

[00:29:23] But something that we haven't talked about on the show yet is humidity. And what role that plays.

[00:29:27] Matteo Franceschetti: We have sensors for back and we will double down on on this type of sensors. There are some studies that talk about air quality and the impact it has on your sleep. You meditate has an impact more than anything.

[00:29:41] It has an impact on your respiration. Because if it's too dry, then that would impact part of your respiration. And the other thing is also with the impact your skin, because again, it's all back to the first principle that you're spending eight hours there, more or less, it could be slightly less, but again, it's flight and Intercontinental [00:30:00] flights. So you know how long the flight is, you're spending that amount of time every single day in this environment. And this environment is too dry or too humid. It will have a negative impact on sleep quality.

[00:30:12] Hala Taha: I love how you keep making the analogy to a flight. Cause it's so true.

[00:30:16] It's like you, you go to sleep you under this whole new world and you need to make sure that you're in a comfortable, like you're in a, it's like being in an airplane for that long. You want to make sure that you're comfortable and then it's efficient. It's such a good analogy. So let's talk about sleep positions because this is something that I feel like people don't know what to do.

[00:30:33] It's should we sleep on our side? Should we sleep on our back? Should we sleep on our stomach? What, in your opinion is the right way. To sleep because it seems like there's so much good in bad with each one. And it's really hard to know what you should do, or if you should switch it.

[00:30:49] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:30:50] So there is not one single answer or meaning is personal. Then what do we have notice is based on the side, there could be an impact on your sleep [00:31:00] quality, and it seems that the reason is connected to digestion. So if there are certain positions that help your digestion. So it depends when now how, what, when you have the last meal and then the results are correlation between position and respiration.

[00:31:16] So for example, if you have sleep apnea, certain position like being faced down is pretty bad for you. There are positional like face app that could help with that. Sometimes you could even slipping climb a little bit. There are also some early studies about actually sleeping in inclined.

[00:31:32] I tried that, so my bed was inclined the whole bed. And the theory would be that would help for your toxin to move towards the bottom of the body, towards the feet. But the bottom line is it's really a preference. So for example, I'm a side sleeper and I keep tossing and turning it doesn't turn off, which is not good.

[00:31:52] And if you have sleep apnea or any problems respiration, you should try to sleep face up.

[00:31:59] Hala Taha: [00:32:00] Something, that I've personally struggled with his neck pain. And I feel as everybody is always looking down at their phones and looking at their computer, I feel like neck pain is something that's really becoming like its own pandemic, especially with people under 50 years old.

[00:32:15] I feel like everybody has neck pain that I talked to. So what is your thoughts on that? Is there certain ways that we should sleep to prevent neck pain? Is there certain things that we can do to prevent neck pain when we're sleeping?

[00:32:26] Matteo Franceschetti: I think the best thing you could do it, is you can get to sleep without a pillow.

[00:32:30] Hala Taha: Without a pillow.

[00:32:32] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, that would be the optimal. And we also have some early data about that. It probably is if you are a person who flips a lot and you sleep on the side, you will need the pillow. So you can think without the pillow, if you just slip face up. But that would be the optimal. Otherwise, if you still have, if you need to keep the pillow, then you need to play with the pillow itself and try to see what is the best option.

[00:32:56] It is something softer in different materials. If you want [00:33:00] foam, or if you want gel of latex.

[00:33:02] Hala Taha: Oh, my gosh. I'm going to try sleeping on my Eight Sleep mattress, no pillow and see what happens face. So just like face up no fellow. Okay. I'm going to give it a shot. So we mentioned this before and I just want to tease it out a little bit.

[00:33:16] We mentioned about the fact that in the future, it's going to be more about the quality of sleep and not the quantity of sleep. We've been like drilled in our heads that it's, six to eight hours, six to eight hours. But in reality, it could be less if we get deeper, better sleep. I actually came across a study and it's from late October from researchers from the Washington University School of Medicine, they released a study that says the optimal sleep duration might be closer to 4.5 and 6.5 hours every night.

[00:33:47] I actually had Dave Asprey on the show earlier this week and he mentioned the saying, he mentioned this study in the interview and he's a proponent for about six hours. He thinks anything more is [00:34:00] actually worse for you. So what is your opinion about how that age old, like six to eight, seven to nine hours of sleep is going to hold up in the next decade.

[00:34:10] Matteo Franceschetti: What they think is your body needs a certain amount of REM and deep sleep. Everything else is just your body being inefficient. And so technology can help with that. And so my theory is substantially the amount of the deep REM that you need is equivalent to around 40. And right now we need dates because next efficiency, and we can try to compress that through technology, different types of technologies.

[00:34:40] So I think the best show that we have is probably to get into the four hours. I think that will be really perfection. I think if we could just make six hours and wake up being fully refreshed without hurting. Our health span or lifespan, it would be pretty awesome, right? Because for some people that will gain two hours [00:35:00] every day, like me, that they sleep more than six hours for others.

[00:35:03] Maybe they're already sleeping six hours, but right now they don't feel great. When they wake up in the morning, they always feel drunk and tired. At that point, we will just regenerate.

[00:35:11] Hala Taha: Very interesting stuff. So one of my last questions to you, as we begin to wrap up this interview is the data. That's going to be accumulated from all this information.

[00:35:22] So as all these new technology products come out, we're going to start to collect data from millions, if not billions of people about their sleep patterns. So what do you think is going to happen in terms of the impact on humanity? When we know all of this data about people's sleep.

[00:35:38] Yeah, thanks.

[00:35:39] Matteo Franceschetti: We'll change that dramatically, because I think one of the biggest bottlenecks, that science and medicine have in the past was it was really hard to track the sleep of people, right?

[00:35:50] Because you have to go to a sleep clinic, they have to put their polysomnograph is feeling busy and lastly, be in your bedroom. So it doesn't really count or it doesn't count much. [00:36:00] And so if you look historically, most of these sleep studies were run on somewhere between 20 and a hundred people.

[00:36:06] Eight Sleep. We have several thousands of people sleeping on our devices every single night. And so one night we collect, I don't know, 5, 6, 7 terabytes of health data about people. And the reason why this will become relevant is because in this way, you can finally start seeing patterns. I don't think we know enough about sleep yet.

[00:36:28] So because there was not the volume of data, that was big enough, and that is what will completely change is already changing and will completely change in the next year.

[00:36:39] Hala Taha: Yeah, I think that's going to be really exciting once we have all this data. I imagine that, especially if people start to also correlate their health problems with their sleep, like if there's a way to map those two things together and start to understand. Oh, this person only sleeps five hours and all of these different diseases happen to them.

[00:36:58] And maybe they're there's correlations [00:37:00] that people can make about your sleep and how it impacts your health and the diseases that you get.

[00:37:05] Matteo Franceschetti: The key will be to first accumulate sleep data. Then the step two will be to start developing these correlations between your fitness, your nutrition, and your sleep. And based on that, we will be able also to predict the future of your health.

[00:37:24] I think the future for Eight Sleep is not even to detect potential illnesses, once they have already occurred, but to be able to come back to you and say, based on your no, your life and your biometrics. If you continue in this direction, you might have a 60% chances to develop this illness in the last three years.

[00:37:45] And that will be based on partners because you have already seen customers developing that. So that is how healthy you've already changed and will be disrupted. Where we will not do wait until when we have the disease to discover that we have it, but to see an [00:38:00] increase in probabilities to develop that disease years in advance.

[00:38:03] So you can change your lifestyle and avoid that problem.

[00:38:07] Hala Taha: So as we wrap up, I do want to ask you to really think outside the box on this one, when it comes to sleep, where do you see sleep in 20 years? So beyond not just with Eight Sleep, just sleep as a category and 20 years. How do you imagine things will be like, are we going to have chips in our brains that stimulate us to go into REM sleep?

[00:38:28] Are we going to have chemicals that get released in our body? Like melatonin when we want to go to sleep? What do you think is going to happen in 20 years?

[00:38:36] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, I think all those things will happen. I think let's not from the outcome. The outcome will be that you can be able to sleep on the six hours and wake up fully refreshed and second I'm going to bed.

[00:38:45] It will be more valuable than going to your doctor, because devices like aids sleep will scan your body. Imagine a sort of MRI, you probably know. And so every morning you will have the food feature of your health. This will happen mainly

[00:39:00] contactless. So I will think you will have to wear anything. Technology is getting there.

[00:39:04] So you will feel great, lots of energy and you will have a full ownership and knowledge of your health.

[00:39:10] Hala Taha: And the last question I ask, all my guests is what is your secret to profiting in life?

[00:39:16] Matteo Franceschetti: Probably never giving up. So I just keep going and that just pushed me forward.

[00:39:22] Hala Taha: And where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do?

[00:39:25] Matteo Franceschetti: Yeah, you can go on eightsleep.com eight, like the number just in letter E I G H T sleep.com and they're also on the homepage. So you can connect with me on two.

[00:39:36] Hala Taha: Amazing. Thank you so much, Mateo. This is such an awesome conversation.

[00:39:39] What a great conversation with Mateo. I've had so many amazing interviews on the show about sleep, but this was the first time I had the chance to talk about what's in store for us in the future.

[00:39:52] Sleep is now an important part of my life, but it really always hasn't been that way back when I started YAP, I was

[00:40:00] working a full-time job and that left me little time to think about anything. Especially sleep. I would just be working 18 hours a day. I would work out, I would eat dinner and that left me with four hours to sleep literally every night.

[00:40:17] And having that habit led to terrible episodes of insomnia. And even when I tried to get a good night's sleep, maybe I had a big presentation the next day, or an interview and I really just want it to be well rusted. I could never fall asleep. I tried everything. I tried melatonin. I tried, reducing my anxiety and meditating and all these different things, but nothing seemed to work.

[00:40:41] And I was literally driving myself crazy. I even went to my best friend's wedding on no sleep. And back when I was getting my MBA, I pretty much took every exam on no sleep. My insomnia was crazy, but over the recent years, it's been a lot

[00:41:00] better. And that's because I started to learn as much as I could about sleep.

[00:41:04] I started to interview all these sleep scientists and psychiatrists and experts. And this is really how my sleep the fascination began. So sleep is super important. Now that I get a lot of sleep, I feel so productive. I feel energized. I feel like my mood is better not to mention. I feel prettier because I don't have bags under my eyes and I don't feel as tired.

[00:41:27] And I don't feel like I need to wear as much makeup and things like that. And sleep is just such an important part of life. And I hope that everybody really takes time to figure out how to get better sleep because sleep is the foundation of everything. Sleep is a pillar in our lives. We spend one third of our lives sleeping.

[00:41:48] Mateo shared how he went through similar struggles with his sleep and like me, he dove into research as an attempt to figure out a solution. And from his research, he created the concept of Eight Sleep. And that [00:42:00] is the best way, in my opinion, to start a company, to find a problem that you care about and figure out.

[00:42:07] So Eight Sleep really was in response to two main issues that he uncovered. The first is that our bodies don't use sleep efficiently. We spend seven to nine hours resting, but little of that time is really working to our benefit and he thinks that if we can train our bodies to use less time, Sleeping in a more efficient way, then we can actually improve the quality of our sleep without necessarily increasing the time of our sleep.

[00:42:33] So everyone always tells us like seven to eight hours in bed, but if you're not getting deep REM sleep or rapid eye movement sleep or deep sleep, then you're really not getting great sleep at all. And those are the two stages, that regenerate our brain and body after a long day. And Mateo said, the other stages are really just there to get us into deep sleep and they don't really matter.

[00:42:54] Or as much so deep sleep, REM sleep is what we really want. And that's what really gives [00:43:00] us the rejuvenation, that we need with our sleep. So companies like Eight Sleep use methods like thermal regulation to help us achieve that efficiency. You can literally set up the temperature of your bed that makes you feel cozy enough to fall asleep.

[00:43:14] And then the bed will auto adjust throughout the night to make sure you don't get too hot or too cold. So some of us run cold. Some of us run hot. I run super cold. I'm always freezing in bed. So I would set my temperature probably higher than normal. And this bed actually, I have the bed. There's actually dual zone.

[00:43:31] So I set my temperature, a different temperature than my partner sets on his side of the bed. So you can set dual temperatures and it just helps you stay asleep for longer. I know a lot of people can relate to this. Sometimes if I'm not in that bed, I'll wake up super hot. If there's a really heavy comforter or if the sheets are not breathable, I'll wake up so hot.

[00:43:56] And feel like I can't sleep because I'm just way too hot. [00:44:00] And that happens way too often. So if you're one of those people, you might want to think about figuring out how you can regulate the temperature in your room, how you can get more breathable sheets. How can you upgrade your great, your sleep gear with something like Eight Sleep, so that you don't wake up hot in the middle of the night, because we know now that you can not get deep sleep, if you feel too hot.

[00:44:21] And that is a great pack, that I think many people don't know about. The second issue that Mateo wanted to fix was the lack of detailed information, available to us about our sleep cycles. In the past, there was gadgets like smartwatches called wearable. But unfortunately they didn't provide enough information.

[00:44:40] So he took it to the next level and he created an app that can track sleep stages, sleep time, toss, and turns, and so much more. I don't know about you guys, but I am super excited about the future of sleep. I'm excited to potentially live in a world, where we only need four to six hours of sleep. Fully rested and healthy.

[00:44:59] [00:45:00] Imagine living in a world where we get three or four extra hours added to our day. And how much more productive and fun of a life. That could be and given where everything is going. I think we all could use extra hours in our day. If you're interested in more information about sleep, make sure you tune back in this Friday on Young And Profiting Podcast, because we are doing a special YAP snacks episode on sleep.

[00:45:25] We're going to uncover the best hacks and tricks from all the different experts, that we've had on the show on the topic. And it's going to be an episode that you do not want to miss, that's all for now. Thanks for listening to Young And Profiting Podcast. You guys can find me on social media on LinkedIn.

[00:45:42] Just search for my name. It's Hala Taha or Instagram @yapwithhala. Big, thanks to my wonderful YAP team. This is Hala signing off.