#150 Bob Burg

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: [00:00:00] Hey, Bob, welcome to young and profiting podcast. So happy to have you here.
bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Thank you Hala. Great to be here

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: yeah, likewise. So you are a prolific writer. You've written so many best-selling books. Uh, your go give her book, especially has been really popular. You've also got a book called endless referrals, which is super popular. So I definitely want to cover, uh, both those topics and also focus on the.

Influence, but before we get into all that good stuff and the meat and potatoes of the interview, I do want to talk to you about your career paths. Um, similar to me, he started in radio. Uh, so I started my career at hot 97 and then kind of evolved from there. Uh, so I'd love to hear about your broadcasting background and how you ended up, you know, becoming such a popular writer.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Just beginning as a sportscaster, uh, for a local radio station where I grew up, uh, got into TV. I was the late night news guy for a, for a, um, very [00:01:00] small ABC affiliate in the Midwestern United States. I wasn't very good at it though. I was, uh, Yeah, I could read the news. Anyone can do that, but I certainly wasn't a journalist.

And so it wasn't long before I graduated into. And, uh, I stumbled in floundered for the first few months because I had no formal sales training and the company I was with the apparently didn't either. So I was sort of left on my own. Fortunately, after a few months I was in a bookstore and I saw there were a couple of books on sales, which doesn't seem like a big deal right now, but that was 40 years ago in sales books were just, they simply were not as prolific as they are now.

So I didn't even know such a thing existed. So when I, when I saw them, I picked up. Bought them, uh, brought them home and every night I'd come home after work. And I would study into the wee hours of the morning and within a few weeks of applying the information, uh, my sales began to go through the roof and it was really a great experience for me from there.

I started to really get into the personal development aspect [00:02:00] because I quickly learned that sales was really about building. On the inside, right. And that, that success manifested outwardly, but it really was what you put into your mind and took into your heart. So I started getting all the, you know, the classics of personal development from Dale.

Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people to think and grow rich, the magic of thinking big and Psycho-Cybernetics. And as a man thinketh and augmented Dino's books and all the great books that I just, I became a. I guess an internal library and, uh, and you know, so I really enjoyed it and eventually worked my way up to sales manager of a company.

And people began to ask me to show their sales team what was working for me. And, uh, eventually just morphed into, uh, into a speaking.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Yeah, I love the fact that you brought up that you've read so many books. I interviewed Steven Kotler pretty recently, and he told me that books have the best ROI on your time. And you can literally time arbitrage with books. These authors are spending [00:03:00] years of their lives researching and pouring out their expertise that might've taken a decade to acquire.

And then you get to read that book and just a few hours and absorb all that information.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Exactly. And, you know, I think when you. And there were different types of books. There are the books that really you're just developing yourself personally and professionally. And then there were the how to books and, and they can provide an in, in such as the ones I, uh, purchased. And they were by Zig Ziglar and Tom Hopkins.

The two that I purchased when I, when I first saw them, they were roadmaps. They told me how to do what I needed to do. It was really, it was a methodology, it was a system. And to this day, I personally define a system as the process of predictably achieving a goal based on a logical and specific. How to principles the key being predictability, right?

If it's been, if it's been documented that by doing a, you can get the desired results of B, then you [00:04:00] know, all you need to do is a and continue to do a and continue to do a and eventually you'll get the desired results of B. So, uh, yeah, absolutely. And you think about how many years, uh, Mr. Hopkins and Mr.

Ziglar spent learning their craft. And then as you said, they put it into book form, and I got to read it within a few hours. And you apply the information.

So Yeah.

I think you really, you really hit it right on the

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Yeah. So I know we don't have that much time together. So I do want to get into the bulk of the interview and really understand what a Go-Giver is. So go give her is a very popular book series that you wrote with your coauthor. And there's four books in that series. I think it's sales, leadership influence, and then the original.

And, uh, let's just understand what a Go-Giver is. I guess it's the difference and the difference between a go getter and.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Well kind of let's let's look at that. Um, so, uh, so the, the basic premise of the Go-Giver is simply [00:05:00] this, that shifting your focus, and this is really where it all begins, shifting your focus. From getting to giving. Now, when we say giving in this context, we simply mean constantly and consistently providing immense value to others.

Understanding that doing so is not only, uh, a more fulfilling way of conducting business. It's the most financial. Profitable way as well. And not for any way out there, we will type of magical mystical reasons. It makes very logical, very rational sense when you're that person hollow, who can take your focus off yourself and place it on serving others on discovering what they need, what they want, what they.

Focusing on helping them solve their challenges and problems, uh, taking your focus off of yourself and making it about helping to bring them closer to happiness. People feel good about you. People want to get to know you, they like you. They trust you. They want to be part of your. Part of your business.

They want to tell others about you. Now we would [00:06:00] say in terms of Go-Giver and go get her, it always depends on how you define terms. Okay.

So what we like to say is we love go getters because go getters are people of action. You know, you're a go getter as well as a go giver. You're a person of action.

Right? And you started in radio, you went into you, you had your, your blog that you had. He led a whole group of teens as that died down. Now you went into something a year ago. But you're always providing value to others. You're a go giver. And so we like people to be both go getters people of action and go givers.

People who are absolutely focused on providing immense value to others. We would say the opposite of a go giver is a go taker. And that's that person who feels almost entitled if you will. Take take without having added value to, to the person, to the process, to the situation. And they tend to be frustrated because they, they rarely have the kind of sustainable success that they believe [00:07:00] they

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: I love that go takers. I think that's really interesting and I, I can't wait to get into manipulation later on, and I think that really ties nicely with manipulation as well. But before we get into that, even though influence persuasion and manipulation is literally my favorite topic to talk about. Let's talk about your five laws for a success that you talk about in Go-Giver.

What are those five laws at a high level?

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Okay. So the, the law, they're the laws of value, compensation, influence, authenticity, and receptivity. The law of value is all about making the experience so wonderful for that pro for the prospective customer and client and eventual customer client. The aside from just the intrinsic value of your product or service, it's the excellence, it's the consistency.

It's the empathy. It's the attention. It's the gratitudes, everything you put into the entire experience that makes it so worthwhile for them, that they feel as though they're receiving much more in value than what they're [00:08:00] paying. And they do while you also make a very healthy profit in any free market based exchange.

There should always be two profits, the buyer profits and the seller profits, because each of them come away much better off afterwards than they were beforehand.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Can I pause either? So T so in turn, so basically what you're saying is we need to provide more value than just what we're getting paid for if I understand correctly. So how do you like give us some example, some concrete examples, how. Can you have an engagement with someone they're paying you, give us examples of providing more than what they're paying you for and going and providing that extra value that they'll remember you for.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Okay. So let's say just, uh, let's say you hire an accountant to do your tax. And she charges you. We'll just name around figure a thousand dollars. That's her fee or her price. Okay. A thousand dollars. But what value does she give you an exchange that, that is so immense first through her, [00:09:00] her, uh, experience, her knowledge, her wisdom, her, her desire to find out about you and what you're looking to accomplish to get, she gets to know your business.

Okay. Uh, she's able to save you $5,000 in tax. She also, uh, saves you countless hours of time. She also provides you and your family with the security and the peace of mind of knowing that it was done correctly. Right? So she's just giving you well over $5,000 in value in exchange for a thousand dollars payment, a of price.

So you feel great about it, but she also made a very healthy profit because it's worth her time. It's worth her while. Okay. Two. Sell or lease her time, her energy, her expertise, her carrying her, you know what I'm saying? And so both of you come away much better off after.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: awesome. Okay. Love compensation.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Okay. So this says that your income is determined by [00:10:00] how many people you serve, as well as how well you serve them. So we're Alon number one says, give more in value than you take in payment. Lon number two tells us that the more people whose lives you touch with the exceptional value you provide the more money with which you'll be rewarded.

Uh, Nicole Martin, the CEO in the store in that part of the story. Uh, told Joe the protege, that lawn, number one, the law of value represents your potential income, but it's lawn number two, the number of lives you impact that represent your actual income. So we could say exceptional value plus significant reach equals very high competence.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Got it. So my question for this law is really about referrals, because if we want to expand our sphere of people that we help, I think the best way to do it is through referrals. And you are the guru when it comes to getting referrals. So tell us about some key strategies. And I know we've got to be a little bit quick, but like, what are your best [00:11:00] strategies for getting referred?

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Well, it's building the relationship. You know, one of the things that I said that the, the, the, um, premise of endless referrals and in something that was in, in the Go-Giver, was that all things being equal, people will do business with and refer business to those people. They know, like, and trust.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Hm.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: So, you know, this is really what lawn number three of the Go-Giver comes into play.
Right? The love influence. Your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people's interests first, which isn't to say in any way that you should be anyone's doormat or a martyr or self-sacrificial, it's just that when you look at the, all things being equal, the know, like, and trust, what do we, what do we see?

That placing that other person's interests first. Okay. That's the, the, that is the way to develop that know like, and trust toward you in others. And that's how referrals will, will happen because you're developing, you're creating these great relationships with people, the way you begin doing it is from that very first [00:12:00] conversation to make it not about you, but about.

It's asking them questions about themselves and their business, not in a prospecting type of way, just in a way that creates a relationship. It's asking them how they got started in their business and what they enjoy most about it. It's asking that person what I call the one key question that will distinguish you from the rest, which is how can I know if someone I'm speaking with is a good customer for you, which totally reframes everything from being the tip.

I'm out there trying to give my elevator speech and sell you my product or service. The first time I meet you too. I want to know how to help. I want to know how to serve you. I want to know how to bring value to you, you know? And it's the same, whether you're in person or online, you know, you're, you're really a, a Lincoln expert.

You're someone who's so lit. You have such a huge audience on LinkedIn. And how many times do you see when someone sends you a connection request? What's the first thing they do, you know, [00:13:00] after they, after you connect, they, they send you a second. Uh, they write to, to buy from the well, and are you going to create a relationship with that person?

Probably not, but it's probably the person who's asking themselves a question. Hmm. How do I add value to Hollis? You know, to her business, what w how can I comment on one of her posts or one of her interviews, uh, you know, how can I share something that's going to bring her value? How can I get to know her in a way that she sees that my focus is on, right?

And that's how we start the referral process. Now there's certain questions we can, we can ask, uh, once we have, once the know, like, and trust is there to, to create the. To create the context where the person's probably going to give us great referrals, but it always begins with the relationship.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: I'm going to have to have you back on to just talk about referrals. That's simply because I think it
bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: We can do 30 minutes system on that.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: for real. [00:14:00] Okay. So let's go on to, I think we got to LA a lot, the law of influence.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: W we kind of did law of influence. We did that within the, um, within that. So we, we sorta, we sort of snuck that in a little bit because it's, again, it's, it's placing the other person's interest first. Uh, not in a self-sacrificial way, but in a way that benefits everyone

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: I do want to dive a little deeper on this influence topic, because I heard you saying something on another interview and I loved it. And that's a fact that when you, when you're a true person of influence, you're not pushing, you're pulling talk to us about that because I think that's really powerful.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Sure. So if we ask what influence is, because remember, you know, the word influence has been thrown around so much now that that people have lots of different definitions. And so, so I think if we look at it first on a very basic level influence can be defined as simply as the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action.

[00:15:00] Usually within the context of a specific goal. Okay. That's the definition, but it's not its essence because the essence of influences that you said is pull as opposed to push, right. Uh, how far can you push. Well, not very well, at least not very fast or very effectively, which is why great influencers, uh, don't don't push, they don't push their will on others.

They don't push their ideas on others. They're not push E right. You never hear someone say, wow, that David or that Mary, she is so influential. She has a lot of push with people. No, Mary's influential. She has a lot of pull with

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Um,

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: So how does that. Manifest itself. Well, again, this and this is that law of influence.

It goes back to placing the other person's interests first. Um,

the, the genuine influencer ask themselves questions to make sure they're facing the right way. See, I believe that we need to be internally [00:16:00] motivated, but outwardly focused. Because remember people don't do things for our reasons. They do it for their reasons.

I often, when I speak at sales conferences, I'll often say, nobody's going to buy from you because you have a quota

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Totally.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: right. They're not going to buy from you because you need the money or even because you're a really nice person they're going to buy from you because they believe there'll be better off by doing so then by not doing so, which is the only reason we could ever expect or should ever expect anyone to, to buy from us. So the genuine influencer ask questions of themselves to make sure they're outwardly focused. For example, how does what I'm asking this person to do? How does it align with their goals, with their needs, with their wants, with their desires? How does what I want this other person to do? How does it align with their values?

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Um,

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: What problems am I helping them [00:17:00] to solve? How am I helping them to get to a direction or get to a place where they want to be? Now, when we ask ourselves these questions, thoughtfully, intelligently, uh, genuinely authentic. Not as a way to manipulate another human being into doing our will, but as a way of building everyone in The process, now we've come a lot closer to earning that person's commitment, right.

As opposed to trying to depend on some type of compliance or push.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: The other thing I really want to cover for my listeners is the difference between influence, persuasion and manipulation, because I think they're all slightly different and I think it will help us understand, you know, where on the spectrum we want.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Sure. So if influence is a matter of being able to move a person to a desired action, okay. There are two ways to influence that you could do it through persuading, another human [00:18:00] being, or you could do it through manipulating another human. One's positive. One's negative. Right? Um,

now the interesting thing is both persuaders and manipulators understand human nature.

They understand what motivates people. They understand how to move people to action. In a sense you can say persuasion and manipulation are cousins, not ones, the good cousin persuasion, and one's the evil cousin manipulate. Um, if we want to describe manipulation, I think the person who described it best was a guy by the name of Paul w sweats, who wrote a book published in 1987, called the art of talking so that people will listen, which was really more about listening than it was about talking.

But that was the title is a wonderful book. And in it, he said, manipulation aims at control, not cooperation. It does not consider the good of the other person. And it [00:19:00] results in a win lose situation. Now in direct contrast to the manipulator, the persuader always seeks to enhance the self-esteem or I would say the position of the other party, people respond better because they're treated as responsible response, able self-directing individuals.

So it begins really with intent, uh, though that's not where it ends, but here here's the thing. See a manipulator. Be trying to necessarily hurt the other person, but if that's what it takes to get their way they'll do so, because it's all about them and their needs with a persuader that can never happen because for persuader to be happy with the situation and with themselves, they have to know that not only has the other person benefited, but that the other person feels good about the situation.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: okay. So my last question on influence is really about the fact [00:20:00] that people love to be the ones making their own decisions, and they want to make their own decisions. So tell us about the law of the back door. I thought this was really.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Sure. Well, thank you. Yes, autonomy, uh, is a key aspect of human nature. People want to feel they're in control of their own. Okay. Um, the, uh, an out or a back door is an emotional escape hatch. You give someone so that they never feel as though they're back into a corner. Okay. So Berg's law of the, the out or backdoor simply says the bigger, the out or backdoor you give someone to take the less, still feel the new.

To take it. So you don't necessarily give them that out so that they'll take it, although if they think they should, they will. Which that would make sense, but no, you do it so that they feel comfortable enough with you and the situation. That they, they don't feel pressured and they don't [00:21:00] feel the need to take that out or backdoor.

So even saying something, um, uh, let's say you have a, a prospect, a sales prospect, and you're in front of that person and they kind of come to the table kind of defensive and it's, well, you know, don't think I'm going to buy anything necessarily from you. I, I, you know, I'm not some easy sell that. Why did they fit, but who knows what their experience has been?

We never know what someone's experience is. Maybe this. Took advantage of them, or maybe they really are someone who doesn't trust themselves to make the set. I

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Mm.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: but what we can do is reframe this using the outdoor backdoor. So it might be something. Uh, you know, Susan, um, while we've been fortunate to be able to help a lot of people with this product, whether or not it's the right fit for you, we simply can't know without exploring deeper and both of us discovering that.

So please know that that this conversation is for both of us to determine whether this would be right for you. And if it is great, if not, [00:22:00] that's okay

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Um, and I bet you, you could even do that in a simpler manner. Like if you just want to hop on a call with someone, you could be like, Hey, you're probably slammed this Friday, but if you have time, would you be able to hop on a call? Like, does it work in yeah. It even works in simple situations like that.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Very very much.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Okay. So I know we have two more laws that we didn't cover. And so I just want to make sure they, uh, my listeners understand them at least at a high level. So I believe it's the law of, um, yep. Go ahead.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Yup. Uh, most valuable gift you have to offer is yourself. And in this law, Debra, who was the mentor in this part of the story, explained that all the skills in the world, the sales skills, technical skills, people skills as important as they are. And they are all very important. They're also offered not if you don't come at it from your true, authentic core, but when you do.

When you show up as yourself, day after day, week after week, month after month, people feel good about you. People [00:23:00] feel comfortable with you. They feel safe with you and why not. They know who it is they're getting. So, so authenticity is a very, um, powerful part of building of building trust. Now, I think, you know, today, authenticity just like influence.

It's a word that gets bandied about so much. I think people. Confused aspects of it. I think, you know, a lot of people, I believe, think authenticity means you have no boundaries. Say whatever you want, do whatever you want. This is how I am. Take it or leave it, which by the way, good philosophy. If you want no happy relationships and you don't feel like being successful in business, then it's a good philosophy.

But otherwise, no, it's really not. Authenticity does not mean you have no boundaries. Authenticity simply means you act congruently. With your values. Okay. It's it should never be used as an excuse for, for being, staying where you are. It's like the person who says, well, I have anger issues and I yell at a lot and a yellow people a lot.

And if I were to act [00:24:00] any differently, that wouldn't be authentic of me. That's baloney, that's hogwash. It simply means that person has an authentic problem, uh, that that person needs to authentically work on in order to become a better, more effective. Version of their authentic selves.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Got it. And so, uh, thank you so much for explaining that. The last question I ask all my guests is, uh, what is your secret to profiting in life?

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Okay. By the way, did you want to do the law of receptivity? The

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Yes. Uh, sorry. I just know we're out of time, so,

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: We're go. We're going to know we'll we'll do it. Don't I, that's very kind of you And I appreciate that, but let let's do that. So we give everybody that all five laws law.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: And then your last law.

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Yeah, love letter law. The law.

of receptivity says the key to effective giving is to stay open to receiving.

This means nothing more than understanding that yeah, you breathe out. You also have to breathe in. It's not one or the. It's both [00:25:00] breathe out. Carbon dioxide, you breathe in oxygen. You breathe out, which has given you breathe in, which is receiving, giving and receiving despite the many anti prosperity and messages we receive from the world around us, which is really a shame despite that.

Giving and receiving, they're not opposite concepts. There's simply two sides of the very same coin. And they work in tandem. The key is that you focus on the giving and you allow the receiving, which is why John David Mann. And I say that money is simply an echo of that.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Um,

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: So you focus on the giving and when you do this and you create such wonderful value for others, Um,

you've created that benevolent context for success, and then you allow yourself to receive as a natural result of the value you've
hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Hmm. I think that's a really important. I think that's a really important point. A lot of people kind of block themselves off from receiving [00:26:00] all the good that they've put out for themselves. So I totally agree there. So the last question that I ask all my guests is what is your secret to profiting in life?

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: I think it goes back to a definition, as you can tell so many things go back to definitions. Right. And I think it's when we, you know, we talked about authenticity, acting congruently with your values. I think happiness, which is really what it's all about. When you think about it at the end of our life, what is it?

It's how happy we were. We were right. Um, I think. I would define, I personally define happiness as an ongoing and genuine feeling of joy and peace of mind, the result of living congruently with one's values. So I think that with everything we do, if we're able to check on this as is what I'm about to do.

Congruent with my values can grow with the person who I believe I am and, or want to become. Then I think we create that [00:27:00] context for happiness, which doesn't mean life is, you know, rainbows and unicorns. Either life is life. Okay. But it means that we have that ongoing sense of happiness.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: it makes sense. Thank you so much, Bob. This was such a wonderful conversation. Where can our listeners go to learn everything about you and what you do?

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: Best places. Burg B U R g.com.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Awesome. Thank you so much. All

bob_burg-2021-12-2__15-4-57: My pleasure. Thank you.

hala-2021-12-2__15-5-25: Cool.