Hey, Nathan, welcome to young and profiting podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Hello. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. I'm super happy to have you on the show. You are widely respected as one of the brightest minds of your generation to quickly introduce you to our listeners. You are the founder and CEO of the platform, founder, a global media and education company that produces books, online courses and magazines for entre.

And millions of people consume founders content every month. And the magazine covers have been blessed by the likes of Richard Branson, mark Cuban, and so many more. And so Nathan, we do tons of research on this podcast and I actually learned that you were pretty average for most of your life. You really didn't have the drive and motivation that you're known for today.

And I do wanna spend some time. Because I think it's gonna really help. A lot of my listeners who may be feeling stuck right now. And you blossomed into entrepreneur that you are in the last 10 years or so of your life. And that's because you found your true passion with founders, something that was fun and enjoyable for you, and that fueled you to work hard and make something of yourself.

And in fact, in the past, you've said that your only success in life has been founder and that's because you were obsessed with it and you got so good at it and you became success. So I learned you had bad grades and even your mom wished that you had the same drive as other kids that you knew. So talk to us about your teenage years, why you were so complacent and what was wrong with your mindset back then?

Yeah. You really have done your research is awesome. Look, growing up. I never really got good grades. I never really tried. I never really had much ambition. And when I did try, I never did very well, to be honest with. I kind of scraped through, got into university and yeah, throughout life, I just kind of drifted.

I was just drifting for a very, very, very long time. And I got a job after finishing that degree. It was an average job, like in a, a corporate job, working at an accounting firm in it support. And it wasn't really what I wanted to do. Like it didn't excite me. I really wanted to work in marketing. And I remember even applying to transfer to a marketing degree and I couldn't even move across because I didn't get the grades that I needed.

So I just, I was just kind of coasting through life, to be honest with you. And I think to answer your question, what really kind of helped me develop my mindset? Well, I guess I really discovered personal growth and I wanted to become. A person that had a life that I was proud of. And I started to do a lot of deep work on myself.

To be honest with you. This is even before I started founder, I met this person on the train. He was like, uh, his name's Tony. He's an incredible guy. Still speak to him or catching up the next couple of weeks. Haven't spoken. Oh, We catch up once every year or so. And I met him on the train and like, he was kind of like a life coach, like just on the side for fun.

And he went through a process with me to help me work out what I truly want from life. And I started going down this pathway, I guess, of personal growth and self development. And at first it was just to, to do work that I enjoy and find work I enjoy. And that's kind of what led me to founder. And I've realized that there was a massive gap in the marketplace 10 years ago to produce content and to build a platform that really helps a lot of founders and entrepreneurs in the sense that it's so hard to know, like what to do, how to start, who to trust, what to follow.

And I started building this platform for me, somebody. Honestly just wanted to find work that I enjoyed wanting to distill what it actually took to start or build a successful business online specifically, because I started hearing stories about friends of friends doing it, and this wasn't as big as it is now, but I just wanted to.

To find out. And that's how I started. Like as an investigative journalist, I did it on the side, found it so much more than that now, but it's still a premise, like how the hell are these people doing it? And then us sharing it with the world. And now we do that really in like our biggest focus is in our online education platform and, and our new product found a plus, which is our all access membership, which really gives you access.

To legit founders that have actually done it. Like people that you hear are doing X, Y, and Z. And we actually work with them to break it down. Like we're working away of all these incredible people that we've interviewed on the podcast to actually give back further and lay out their frameworks and blueprints on our platform.

Like we know we interviewed the co-founder of square about a year ago, Jim Mackel, incredible interview. And he talked about how he started square and how he comes up with business ideas. He's teaching on our platform now, as of course coming out soon. So like, we're gonna continue to build this alternative MBA, which is insanely cost affordable for people.

But going back to your original question, how did I develop my mindset? It just started brick by brick. It wasn't a thing that was just bang. Now I'm this kind of person that is so ambitious, so optimistic. And a big believer in what I was building and, you know, was unstoppable. It was built over time and through doing deep work around, truly working out who I am as a person, what do I want from life?

Yeah, something that I found out that was really interesting is that you specifically wanted to learn how to be more of a man. And I thought this was so interesting. Actually, I just signed a podcaster to my network. Her name is Michelle Daff, and she's got a podcast called feminine impression. And she talks about all, about how to be a feminine woman.

And when I was listening to her content, like evaluating her for my network, I realized that I'm very girly, but I have very masculine energy. And I was like, wow. Like maybe like some things didn't work out in my life because I have very masculine energy. And then I heard you talking, say that you.

Feminine energy or you used to have more feminine energy. And actually most of my listeners are male. And so I thought this was very interesting to talk about men's work, what you did to study about men's work, how it improved your life and why you thought you needed to do that work in the first place.

Like, it's just super interesting to me. So I'd love to hear about it. Yeah, sure thing. So I started reading books. The first book that really changed the game for me is the way of the superior man. It was just a recommendation that I read about. There was a really, really, really solid book for men and women to understand men.

And that was a really incredible book for me just to understand my biology and why I am the way I am. And, and it kind of took me on this path to kind of live some of the principles in that book around kind of the purpose of a man is to kind of find your life purpose. And to really focus on that. So I was looking for my life purpose.

I didn't know it would be found, but I fell into it. And then that's, I never wanted to let go. But then for whatever reason, if I'm being a hundred percent honest with you, how, like I'm not very tall. I'm not very, you know, buff. Like I, I do work out, but like, I'm not like extremely buff. And I guess I'm, I'm a lot more of a softhearted kind of person.

So for whatever reason, I don't feel this anymore. But I felt like I wasn't, for whatever reason, I felt that I wasn't a developed man or I didn't see myself as a man. I saw myself more as a boy. I dunno why, but I just did, maybe it was a maturity thing as well. So I discovered this world where you could do workshops or like men's work, right.

You can Google like where your local city is and stuff. And it's incredible. Like. It's extremely challenging, extremely confronting, but there are all sorts of cool retreats and all sorts of things you can do. I did that for a while and it, and it really helped me develop. Now it wasn't a, an immediate shift, but it just gave me more clarity around who I am, who I want to be and where I want to go in life.

Yeah. So I hope that answers your question. It does. And it's, it's super interesting to me cuz I've never had anyone on the podcast where this has come up and I think it is really important to embrace your masculine energy or your feminine energy and to know like which one you have and, and what your strengths and weaknesses are in general.

And so I just thought that was really important to bring up. So another big moment in your life that I think influenced you to go down this path of entrepreneurship. It was when you took a Europe trip and I believe this was in your twenties and you realized that you hated your it job, and you realized that life was too short to do something that you hated for the rest of your life.

So let's talk about how you started founder as a side hustle. How did you get the idea? What was the initial concept and how has it evolved over the years? In my twenties, I'm 35 now. So like 24, I went and did a Europe trip. Remember 23, 23, 24. I did a Europe trip. Uh, so it was Euro 2010 as first trip. I went with my best friend, uh, who was fortunately passed away about five, six years ago now, but we did a Europe trip and he was incredible.

It was eight weeks. Like it was life changing and I was just having so much fun, not a care in the world. And I was working at, at this accounting firm. And that was kind of like, there was this extreme dread that I didn't want to go back this, this dreaded feeling. I can't, I can't, the word dread is the best word to describe it, but it was, it was excruciating that thought of going back and not because I'm bashing like doing it support.

I wanna be super clear here just for whatever reason. It wasn't, for me, it was not for me. And that's when I knew I had to make a change and I'd been doing men's work. I'd still been doing men's work when I even got back. And that's when I knew I was like, you know what, I've gotta make a change here. So what I did was I, I went back and studied.

I went back and studied a masters of marketing and off the back of that. I remember even I put myself out there and I got this lady to help me write my resume. And I said, I'm gonna get a new job. And, and I said, I wanna work in marketing. And she said, well, look, let's try and get you at a big company.

Cause if you go into a big company, hopefully you can transfer across. So I got a job at this incredible company called Intrepid travel. Uh, it's one of the largest adventure travel companies in the world and their head office is based in Melbourne and. I got a job there. I left the accounting firm and I was loving life hella.

Like, it was so much fun just being around the people and the work was okay. You know, what the work was. Okay. And for a little while, while I was studying marketing and kind of working hard, I was okay with the fact that I was in it, but it didn't last forever and very quickly. After a year or so doing that degree, it took me two years.

Took me two years of night school to get my master's of marketing about a year in that's when I started to go, you know what? I wanna move into marketing. I wanna do this marketing thing. And so I'd say, yeah, look, I tried to apply. I'd say yeah, probably around getting closer to that two years, I tried to apply for marketing jobs, especially internally within the company.

And no one would hire me. I went for three different internal jobs and. Basically off the back of that Hua. I started looking externally for a marketing job, even though I love the culture. I love the people. I made it clear that I wanna move to marketing, sort. Like I fishing my degree and I've spent a lot of money.

Like would've cost me 50, 60, 70 grand on HES debt to do my marketing degrees. I just wanted to, to do that and I couldn't get a job still. I went for job interviews, all sorts of things. And I remember somebody telling me. Never forget. I, I asked for feedback and he said to me, oh, look, it'd be really cool.

If you had some sort of website or project that you could show how passionate you are about marketing. And so then I started going down this pathway of learning online marketing and realizing how could I mesh my passions for technology and it cuz I was actually good at it with marketing. And that's when I went down this pathway of trying to understand marketing and online marketing.

And then I, I stumbled across this idea to launch your own digital magazine and this software you could purchase to help you do it. And I said, I let, that would be a cool side project. Let's do it. I put 2000 on my credit card and bought the software. I was making only $50,000 at the time. And it was the best investment I ever made in myself because then I started to build this magazine.

And at first the magazine was gonna be in horse racing with my best friend, my housemate at the time. And he got a job and he couldn't do it. And so I was really interested in entrepreneurship. So I started. Let's and that's how it started, how, as I said, I started hearing these stories around how people were starting and building these incredible online businesses and working full time.

So I started interviewing people and that's when I realized I need to share this with the world like this, this information is gold and that's been the premise of founder ever since. And then over time as I launched the magazine, I was even taking it to other job interviews, even in internal role at Intrepid.

And they still didn't hire me, even though they thought it was impressive. And I tell your listeners that, because I still didn't know I was gonna build what founder is today. And then as I, as time went on, we started to kind of, I guess, produce a lot more content. So I went full-time on it. Eventually still producing the magazine, started to just do the podcast, started to build a platform.

And then we started to leverage that content more, spin it out more, all the stuff that you know, and do well hella. And then. Five years ago, I realized there was an opportunity in the online education space and that's been a big focus of ours and, and still is. And that's really kind of the core of what founder is now.

We really are an ed tech business and we have close to 25 courses on our platform where we're launching now one a month. And yeah, we're trying to build like, you know, the largest, most comprehensive online business school in the world, which is a, a cost affordable alternative to an MBA. That's kind of us, but that's how it evolved.

I love it. I got like chills while you were talking, because it's just like a sweet story. And I feel like the best companies are the ones that start so organically. And yeah, my company started in the same way. It was like just a little idea that I had. And then I got a team and then it turned into an agency and then it turned into a network and like, it just like, kind of kept layering up.

And, and it's very similar to your story. Like you were just curious. You were dabbling in your passion. You wanted to learn, you wanted to help people, and then you just kept layering it on until you like built this empire. And so congratulations. It's so cool. Such a great story. And from my understanding, you started in 2013, right?

That's when you founded it. Yeah. That's when I launched the first edition, March 5th, 2013, made $5 and 50 cents. Amazing. And actually founder, wasn't the first name, right? You had a different name. Yours got sued right in the beginning did get sued. So when I launched it, it was called something else and, uh, was sued for trademark infringement by one of the biggest business magazines in the states.

And so changed the name. And in fact, the person that was like a lawyer and ex lawyer at Intrepid, the company I was working at helped me work through it. . That's a Testament to that company and just how good the people are. Cause I, I became friends with the CEO and the founder, one of the co-founders and I still speak to him to this day.

And I said, Hey, like, this is what I'm working on. I'd love to work in marketing. And then I, when I got the email that I was gonna be sued, For trademark INFR, I sent it across and he was like, oh, you need to speak to Tom. And then Tom and I worked it out and we just changed the name to founder. And that's why it's founded without the E even though to be honest.

And it's so cool. We own the word founder, like in many aspects, like, cuz there's no actual founder brand with correct spelling. So it's us. Oh, if anybody did create a founder brand with correct spelling, like, because we've used that so long, like it. So the word founder is synonymous amongst entrepreneurship.

It's actually pretty special. Yeah. And I think it's a great name. I don't know what the name was before, but it's a great name, nonetheless. And so most people would've stopped in their tracks right there. Oh, I'm getting sued for my sad hustle that makes no money. I should just hang my hat up, call it a day.

But you kept going. And even though it was pretty slow gross from my understanding in the beginning, I think your first month you made like 80 bucks a month or something. So, how did you keep going? How did you stay motivated? So I never forget the first interview I did with a lady called Lynn Hoang, outsourcing angel.

She was the only person that would get back to me to do an interview. So I remember after that interview, even though I was so nervous, I felt so invigorated so much incredible energy. I felt so pumped after it. And I remember seeing my fiance and being. This is what I was bored to do. This is awesome. I love it.

So that was incredible. And then also this idea of not letting others down in the sense that people will subscribe to the magazine and they were owed another magazine edition next month. So I just kept going hella. I just kept showing up and that's gonna be the same. We found a plus like it, it is gonna be the most next level online entrepreneurial platform, an education platform for founders.

Now we've made that commitment one course a month. We'll just keep showing up and it's gonna be next level. Like it's only the beginning and that's my drive. That's why I kept going. Even though I wasn't making any money, I loved it. And I didn't wanna let others down. Yeah. Something that I do want you to touch on is the fact that it was fun for you and it sparked something inside of you that you never experienced previously.

Like we had mentioned, you were kind. Stagnant like you were successful, but not at the levels that you are now, obviously. So why is it important to have fun with what you're doing to do what you love, especially when it comes to staying motivated and driven, but simple, life's too short to not do work that you enjoy.

And I'm not gonna sit here and tell everybody that entrepreneurship is like all fun and joy. It's not . The reality is the highs are high and the lows are low and it is tough. You will get punched in the face many times, but it is the most rewarding, incredible experience that I wish everyone to experience in their life because entrepreneurs are the ones that are shaping the future of the world.

Everything that you see around you right now, these headphones, this micro. The whiteboard or the poster behind you. Like these are created, these are businesses that are creating these things, and it's incredible to be able to create something and to shape something of your own, to call it your own and to be able to make an impact in the world.

And that's the funnest. Even though it is tough. Sometimes there are tough, tough times. We talked about being sued. I was sued for trademark infringement and I thought I was gonna go bankrupt hella, and I never forget one of my mentors at the time I called him up and told him I was freaking out. And he's like, do you, do you have much money?

And I said, no. And he said, well, hack, it doesn't matter. Really, if you go bankrupt, then just it , you know what I mean? So, yeah, look, the highs are high. The lows are low, but life's too short. That's the short answer. Life's too short to not do work. You don't enjoy. I totally agree. And so eventually you did start obtaining some big name interviews at founder.

I think a major turning point for your magazine was getting interview with billionaire and entrepreneur, Richard Branson in your first. And so I feel like this entrepreneurship game is all about leverage. And so I bet you leveraged Richard's name to get next big person after the next big person, because all you need is one.

Yes. And then you can just keep leveraging that. Yes. Wouldn't you agree? Yeah. Well, I think it's about building the brand. How do you build brand? How do you build trust? How do you build authority? And thankfully, so Richard agreed to do an interview with us and. I made that magazine edition free. And I led with that magazine edition because it was our best one.

And I think that's a lesson for everybody, right? If you're in the content business, how can you give away your best stuff for free? Like, wait, we found it plus we're charging, right? But like, what are we doing even still, what are we doing to give away our best, some of the best stuff for fruit to, to give people an experience.

So look, we got an interview with Richard Branson and that was just sheer hustle and determination. And what was key to that Heller. And this is a lesson for all of your listeners is I found somebody that had a magazine that was getting interviews with well known people. Like they got in, they got interviews with, for their vegan magazine, like bono and Jamie Oliver and all these incredible people.

And I wanted to find out how they were doing it and they showed me the blueprint. And I think that is so key. And that is the ethos of founder. How can you learn from people that have already done it and get their frameworks, get their blueprints? How can you shortcut? And that's what we're all about, right?

Yes. I'm a big believer in the long cut, but the best thing you can do, if you have a problem is define somebody. That's already done it and learn from them. You want to know how to start an eCommerce business, learn from somebody that's done it like five times. Why do it yourself? Why work out how to do it yourself?

Learn from somebody. Even if you learn one thing. The amount of money that you will make from that will be incredible. If you want to know how to build a SaaS company, learn from someone that's built a billion dollar business. Like if you want to know how to run YouTube ADSS, learn from someone that's spent tens of millions of dollars on the platform.

And that's the whole thing. That's what we're big about at founder. That's what I'm big about. And that's how I'm do. That's how I do what I do. And that's really kind of. Why I believe that what we're building with founder plus, and founder is so powerful and so important. I love that. And I feel like I did wanna add to your point.

I think a lot of people in the beginning, you're learning from people in, from books and videos and YouTube, and you're leveling up your skills enough so that when you do reach out to that person that you want advice from, they have respect for you because you've done everything that you could up until that.

Now you're asking somebody for feedback for the next steps of the things that aren't necessarily written down. But I do feel like people need to make sure that they do that self learning and they continue to be curious and learn on their own. Do you have any thoughts about that? Yeah. Look, it's everything.

The speed in which your business grows is are you as the CEO and the owner of the companies is the reflection of your own knowledge and growth. And you need to be able to, to have an open mind to learning, because that is everything right. As founders we're always leveling up. We're always learning. Like I'll, I'll give you a great one.

So I interviewed scooter bra a few months ago and, um, he shared that he recently became good friends with Jeff Bezos. And he said something that he wanted to share with our community was that he asked Jeff Bezos, you have everything in the world. You're the richest person in the world. What more could you want from life?

And he said, I just want to evolve. I think that is so powerful because we tell ourselves these stories, HAA that all of us, everyone listening, everyone watching right now, we tell ourself when I make this amount of money, It'll all be good when this happens. I'll be okay. When this happens, it's gonna be amazing.

And there's somebody that, that has everything you could ever want from life in terms of monetary success. And he just wants to evolve. He just wants to learn. He just wants to develop. He just wants to be curious. That's a beautiful story. I love that. Thanks for sharing that. So I have a question for you.

At what point did you start getting a team for founder? How long were you working as like a solo entrepreneur? Yeah, so honestly, when I first started the magazine Heller, I needed to outsource or find contractors to do certain things, just even for the first magazine edition, cuz I'm not a designer. These were just critical investments that I made in building up the product.

So I started working with the designer for issue number one, and that was critical. I used to get my mom to help me copy, edit, and proofread. And I used to get my dad to help me with some of the tech stuff. So I was calling in all favors and I reckon probably after about a year, When I was getting close to basically leaving.

So it took me, I think, 12 to about 14 months to go full time on founder around the 12 month stage. That's when I got a copy editor and that's when I started to work with some other writers, but I had to pay writers as well. I guess you could say I did have a bit of a team ever since the beginning, but just contractors, right?

Nothing major. And then eventually when I went full time, I was playing around with interns for a little. That was an interesting experience. And then off the back of that, I eventually hired our first fulltime hired JC. It's not with us anymore. I'd say 2015. So I went full time. Mid 2014. So I started early March, 2013, went full time, mid 2014, hired JC, probably early 2015.

And he was just a content crafter and he wrote content for the website. So that was what, eight years ago? Seven, seven years ago. Yeah. And. Just curious about what you've learned yourself about yourself now that you're a leader who manages people. Did you ever have any challenges in terms of leading a team?

Oh, heaps, right. Like to be honest, it's only been, I reckon the past year where I've had to elevate, like, you know, I have the title CEO, but I'm not actually, you're not actually really the CEO. In the sense that you don't actually do a job of like a CEO of a public, like actual, proper CEO of a mature company.

So that's been an interesting journey, right? Like how do you hold people to account? Uh, you know, that's been a dev, that's something that I've been developing. How can you, how can you rally and inspire? How do you lead a team of leaders? So, yeah, it's been a big development, right? It's been a big transition, to be honest with you hella like, you know, I have C-suite executives, I've got chief revenue officer.

I've got a chief financial officer. I've got chief of staff. Yeah. These are people that really kind of very experienced. It's been an interesting journey. Yeah. And something that I admire about you is your humility, right? Like you're really humble leader. I wish I had more of that. I feel like sometimes I may come off like a little arrogant and, and I have other things that make me a great leader.

I can motivate people, inspire people. I'm passionate, but I wish I had a little bit of your humility. So what's your secret behind that? Is that conscious or are you trying to be humble or is this just like who you are? That's your natural kind of demeanor? I think it's just my natural demeanor. I'm not trying to be humble.

I just know where your audience is at. And I'm just trying to tell it like it is like, and not hold back. And I'm not afraid to be open and honest, like honestly, like we at founder, we'd love to help you on your journey, but at the same time, I'm trying my best to just kind of just give you the real stuff, because I know that's what makes a great interview.

Yeah, totally. Okay. Let's talk about decision making when it comes to leadership. So you've talked about in the past that you like to trust your gut. And so there's lots of mixed opinions about this. I have lots of people come on the show that say like, you need to be rational. You need to control your emotions.

And then there's other people like you who say more of trusting your gut is important and going with your feelings. So what is your insight in terms of how you make decisions? Yeah, so it's interesting. I've trusted. My gut still do a lot, but I think I'm taking it a step further these days, especially as the company develops.

And especially as we're bringing on really experienced leaders, they're used to growing and scaling businesses, not off pure gut, but data and insights. I think it's a combination. You can make a decision off gut, but you are just winging it the whole time. Because really when it comes to business, I think you've gotta be right, like 60, 70% of the time.

And if you keep going off gut, it just, you can. And I still do, but like now I like to use data and insights to back it up as well, where I can. And I think that's kind of the evolved Nathan, when it comes to decision making and that, and that's just, honestly, that comes from a credit to our. Like they've taught me that I have always winged it.

That's what I'm used to. I'm your typical founder. That's what I've realized as well, where I like to create something from nothing. I love to create things like I love to just build and yeah, like to actually scale a business and to be a, be a solid operator, you need data and insights to make better decisions.

So I hope that answers your. It does. And I think something else that you sort of alluded to is you also need the right team, a team that bounces your weaknesses and maybe somebody who's more analytical by your side. That's what I have my business partner. Tim is like the data numbers guy. And I'm just the ideas person.

yeah. A hundred percent an executor, but yeah. Yeah. Cool. So let's move on to some tactical content. And then I know we gotta close out soon. We love actual advice here on the podcast. So we've all heard the phrase. It takes money to make money. And a lot of people shy away from starting their own company because they don't have any resources.

And you say this is actually a common misconception. So let's talk about what an inspiring entrepreneur can do. They wanna start a business, but they have very little resources. Yeah. So like I said, if you wanna start a business, first of all, you've gotta find out what kind of business you wanna start.

And the best way to find that out is to either try it, listen to podcasts or listen, or learn, or meet people that are doing the kind of business that you want to do to get an understanding. If you think that that's something you like, but at the end of the day, you just gotta try. You've just gotta try.

And you just have to be prepared to understand. That if it doesn't work out those lessons that you learn, they're gold, like they're worth tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars to you, those lessons. So you can't be afraid to fail, but at the same time, you need to learn from people that are doing it.

Right. So that's why I'm a big, big fan of working out. What kind of business you wanna start? We'd love to go on the journey with you at founder. Plus if you wanna start an online business, we have instructors that. Exactly the kind of business you wanna start, whether it's a service based business, whether it's a digital agency, whether it's freelancing, whether it's an online course business, whether it's an eCommerce business where it's a software business, all these different business, we have people that will teach you that and just follow the frameworks.

But coming back to your question, do you need money to make money? I think it, you could start a business with little to no money, no doubt about it. I'm living proof of that Heller. I started founder with a couple of grand. And then over time, I just kind of kept flipping reinvesting, reinvesting, reinvesting, reinvesting, reinvesting.

Right. So you definitely get there slower. It definitely is harder, but you learn incredible lessons. So the key thing to take away to answer your question is no, you don't need a lot of money to start a business. And. I see that within our students, in our community, some of the things that they are doing is insane around how they start businesses, especially service based businesses.

If you have a skill, you can do incredible things, right? If you have a skill, you can go out, you can hustle, you can get clients, you can provide a service, you can do all sorts of things, right? But you don't need money really to make money. You can build something from nothing with little to no re. Yeah.

And something else I'd love for you to touch on is this analogy that you have about pain, killer products versus vitamin products. I think this would be really important for my listeners. Yeah. So look, I make no claim to inventing this concept. I didn't even know who did, but it wasn't me just say that straight out.

It's a big term in Silicon valley, but what it really comes down to. When you are creating a product or a service, you need to think of them as pain killers versus vitamins. So what vitamins is something that people take has a nice to have. They don't really need it. And really the best products and services are pain killers.

They solve a deep pain. Like if you've got a headache, you want a para Mo you want it to go away. And so when I think about what we're creating with founder, plus. If somebody wants to start a business or grow a business, I know that we are building a pain killer product because we're giving you all the frameworks, all the proven frameworks, all the shortcuts, all the lessons learned from people that are actually doing it.

If you enroll and found a plus, it's like $1,500 a year, it's nothing. If you enroll and found a plus, you can learn very, very quickly. You could give it to your team and they could learn very, very quickly from people that have done it. So. You've really gotta think about does your product or service solve a deep pain?

Yeah. I love that. And I guess the vitamin part of it is that they're just nice to have, you could take your vitamins if you want to, but it's not gonna really solve any of your pain, right? No. All right. So as we wrap up this interview, I always ask two questions to my guests. And this is an opportunity for you to share anything that you think will inspire or motivate our listeners.

So the first question is what is one actionable thing that our young and improvers can do today to be more profiting tomorrow, identify five people that you believe are within your reach to learn from and reach out to them and see if you can have a conversation. There it is so powerful. And then also.

Sign up to founder plus, or we'd love to help you on our platform.  and founder, plus, what is founder plus exactly like what can they find? Oh, it's our all access membership pass to all of our courses. We have 23, 24 at our platform. Plus we are releasing one a month. We have live workshops. It's everything you need to start, grow your business only membership you need to, to grow your businesses and entrepreneurs.

We're here to help. Awesome. And what is your secret to profiting in life? Tried to provide as much value as possible to the marketplace. Amazing. Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do? Oh, you can go to founder.com, ndr.com or, uh, if you'd like to get founder plus, which is a big focus of ours now, like I said, it's the alternative to an MBA.

We'd love to come on the journey, which you can go to founder.com/membership. Well, thank you so much, Nathan. This was such a great conversation. I can't wait to put it out. Awesome. Thanks so much, Helen is.