#57: Build Your Social Capital With Jordan Harbinger

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Head over to Podcorn.com to learn more. You're listening to young and profiting podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host Hala Taha. And on young and profiting podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world.
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Today on the show. I'm chatting with Jordan Harbinger, the Larry King of podcasters and social dynamics expert, who has been doing his podcasting thing for over 12 years. He started out on the art of charm podcast, and now he hosts the Jordan Harbinger show, which is just a couple of years old and was awarded the best podcast of 2018 by apple.
In this episode, we'll talk about how to care for your network to make it stronger than ever. We'll get Jordan's key practicals to boost your confidence and ace your first impressions and we'll dig into podcasting covering topics,

[00:03:00] like how he studies for his guests, to why most podcasts fail. So I can't believe that you got best podcast of 2018.
I would die to have that title. How did that feel?
Jordan Harbinger: First of all, they don't tell you that's going to happen. They're just like. You hear about it from your friends? Like people go, Hey, congratulations. And you get like a text message from Australia at four o'clock in the morning. And those people who've been up there Hey, I just checked the listings.
And I saw the press release from apple, congrats on being listed as best of 2018. And then you get up and make a pot of coffee and you check your tax and you're like, oh, okay. That's pretty cool. I didn't know that was going to happen. Then you check and make sure that they're not wrong and they didn't get somebody else.
That sounds like you. Which probably happens to you a lot, given that your name could there's probably other people with that name that are like 39 or 59 year old dudes who live in Dubai or something. And then I check that and I was like, wow, this is really cool. I better take screenshots before they figured out that I don't belong here, which just goes into my imposter syndrome that never goes away.
For a lot of people and I took

[00:04:00] screenshots and then put it in every single piece of marketing materials ever. Once I got confirmation from apple, that it wasn't a weird mistake that was going away.
Hala Taha: Oh my God. Yeah. W what an amazing accomplishment. And so you've been podcasting for over 12 years, which means that you've been podcasting since like around 2008.
And I actually, in 2009, 2010, I used to do a lot of internet radio shows. I used to work at hot 97. I was Angie Martinez as assistant. And I used to have like Internet radio show is on the side and podcasting, like back then I didn't even know what podcasting was. So how did you find out about podcasting? And I know you started off as a lawyer, so how did you get ended up being a podcaster?
Jordan Harbinger: So I started talking about my. Actually let me even back up, I decided I was going to be a lawyer for the sole reason that I was unable to get a job doing pretty much anything, even with a four year degree from the university of Michigan. And that was terrifying. And of course, what you do when that happens is you panic and you ask everybody for

[00:05:00] advice, and then you get highly unqualified advice.
Like from your, in this case, my aunt, who was like a gym teacher, said, you should be a lawyer because one time you argued with me when you were 13. And clearly you like arguing become a lawyer by the way. Not good advice. Don't do that. And I went to law school because that was highly recommended.
By a lot of other people just because it's something to do. And by the way, none of those people were attorneys. And I applied to law school. I got into law school. I studied really hard because everybody was super smart. It was a really good law school. It's the university of Michigan. I felt again, imposter syndrome, I don't belong here.
I'm gotta be like the bottom of the barrel. I'm going to fail out all this stuff. And I ended up getting a job at a wall street firm because I worked my buns off and I realized, oh, everybody at this firm works really hard. Everybody is really smart. I'm probably surprised surprise imposter syndrome. I'm going to get fired if they see me a lot, if I'm around a lot, they're going to realize I'm the guy who slipped through the cracks and doesn't belong here.
I better go and figure

[00:06:00] out a way to minimize my footprint, which is actually not the best idea. That's not how you handle it becoming you need to become a high-performer and live in, and own it and not hide, but I was like, I'll hide, I'll work from home. So I asked one of the youngest partners. Why he was never in the office thinking, oh, he must work from home.
And so if I figure out how to work from home, I won't get fired and I'll be able to last longer here, maybe that extra time that I buy will buy me enough time to figure out what the hell to do at a big law firm like this tonight, get fired and be valuable. And so what happened was he actually told me, not only is he not working from home, he's actually not even working to bill hours.
Most of the time he's generating business for the law firm, which blew my mind. I'd never even heard of that. I just assumed at age 26 or whatever that people looked up, law firms in the yellow pages or something. But no, it's not really how it works at the multi-million dollar deal level. With investment banks and corporate clients.
So I said, oh,

[00:07:00] you're developing business for the firm. How do you do that? And you said, it's about your network. It's about who, who knows you, who knows, likes and trusts you. He didn't put it in concise terms like that, but he communicated that to me and I thought, okay. So if it's not just about working really hard, for sure it is, you have to work your butt off.
But if that's not enough, if being smart is also not only enough, if working hard and being smart together is not enough. What's the secret sort of third competitive advantage that I'm going to get, because I can work hard. I have two brain cells to rub together as my mother would say, but I'm not really that well networked.
I don't have a competitive advantage. Everyone here is really smart. Everyone works really hard. What do I do? So I needed to create a network and I had no clue how to do that. Because nobody ever taught us networking and relationship development skills. I thought networking was like showing up to a party with business cards and being like, Hey, if you need a lawyer, give me a call.
And I'm like smoking a cigar and then driving off in my rolls royce, like I had no idea what was involved.

[00:08:00] So I spent the next, I don't know, 13 years now, but in the immediate term, the next few months, two years working on everything that I could find with networking, and I took like Dale Carnegie classes and read books.
And what I realized was if you're not getting a million dollar a month, multi-million dollar law deal, it's not because you didn't look them in the eye and have a firm handshake. Like it's not because you didn't smoke that true on that cigar and drive off in your rolls Royce. It's because people don't really know and trust you.
But some guy in a sweater vest, teaching a Dale Carnegie course at the YMCA, he can't articulate that he can't help you. There's a reason he's teaching Dale Carnegie classes. Part-time at the YMCA or the learning addicts. Like not to be a little, those guys there. They were great help to me in the beginning, but they got me to this sea level and I needed to be at like the, a level to really create relationships that were going to be meaningful to a top wall street firm, period.
So I started reading books on psychology, human performance.

[00:09:00] What causes people to know and trust you influence which a nonverbal communication tactics. And this is early, like early odds, 2007, 8, 9, 10, up to now. So back then there weren't. First of all, YouTube didn't exist. So there weren't YouTube channels like charisma, where they teach some of these skills.
There weren't companies like what I do at the Jordan Harbinger show and what I did with my elder company, which has since erupted into a giant mess. We don't even talk about that anymore. But like we did, there was nothing like this. I ended up teaching, not only law firms and lawyers, what I was doing, but after I left the law due to the economic downturn, thank God best thing that ever happened to me.
And I'm probably the only one who can say that. But like due to the economic downturn, I ended up teaching at like the central intelligence agency, the U S military special forces, special operations, and my six over in England, which is their spy agency there, their intelligence agency, I should say, and corporations like LinkedIn, Facebook, Apple
so I got really lucky in that. I started studying something that I thought everybody else knew, but it turns out

[00:10:00] some people were naturally good at it. And everybody else was just screwed. And I was like whoa. I learned this. Very piecemeal deliberately. And I started talking about it before I started talking about it with corporations though.
I started talking about it with lawyers and I found that law firms were we don't really care. Some of our people are good at this and some of our people are not. And then my friends started to realize that they could apply it to dating. And that turned into a multi-million dollar company, which I have since left.
Hala Taha: So you alluded to the fact that, you got let go, I believe, during the financial downturn, from your whole firm.
Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it was like that. It was just to correct the record here. You're mostly right. But it was kinda like, Hey. You all should get another job. All 63 of you in this class.
We're not going to let you go, but you're probably not going to be here because the firm is closing, but it wasn't like here as much of a schmuck, as you always thought you were Jordan, get out.
Hala Taha: And you weren't like singled out. Yeah.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it was like everybody, this is a sinking ship. Go find

[00:11:00] another job. And I was like, Yolo, I'm just going to do my show cause law sucks.
Hala Taha: Yeah. And so you dealt with that failure and then you started the art of charm with your partners and it was super successful. And then you guys had a falling out. So how do you deal with failure? Because you obviously have the ability to like, get back up on your feet. Now you have a bigger podcast than the former, and you're doing much better things than I couldn't tell you what your partner's names were, but I know your name.
So how do you deal with failure? How did you get back up on your feet?
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah so the old company that I literally just settled a lawsuit with cause they tried to sue me from starting this. So I, I have a nice little zip-up on that. I will tell you hands down, the best thing that ever happened to me, other than leaving my law job was leaving that company.
And I should probably leave it at that. There's a reason you don't know anybody else that worked there. And the reason is because what we do at the Jordan Harbinger show, Is all of the right things that made the former company great with the none of the ridiculousness that might

[00:12:00] come with having certain people in an organization.
I got to tread pretty lightly here for, that's a good reason. I've got to keep it classy, but what we've done with the Jordan Harbinger show, I thought when I left that company, I thought I am so screwed. I spent 11 years building a show, a company I should say, I have to start over from zero. And I called a Jerry Maguire where I was you know what, I'm sick of this.
I'm leaving. Who's coming with me? And the answer was literally everyone pretty much, except for my current partners. And that turned out to be a massive blessing cause I was able to take my entire team with me. To the Jordan Harbinger show. So I didn't have to retrain people, but I did have to start what I thought was going to be from scratch with my audience.
And as it turned out, my network was the best insurance policy that money cannot buy. And I what I mean by that is I made 140 phone calls, I think the first two weeks that I was

[00:13:00] out of my, you know what, and I said, here's the sitch, I'm in trouble, man. And all of these, literally hundreds of people stepped up and they said, what can I do?
And I said, publicize, the Jordan Harbinger show, throw me anything that you can in terms of that. And tell one to two people in your circle, what has happened to me and let me know if they can help because I can't call everyone. So I would call a hundred people and then 300 people would blast their email list, have me on their podcast, make an announcement on their show.
I couldn't have purchased that amount of publicity if I'd had $2 million in straight up cash in my garage or under my mattress. It was my network that came and rescued my bacon. And that was something I never nobody ever says. There's a, the phrase called dig the well before you're thirsty.
I think it's a book by Harvey McKay. And even before that, it was out before that it's like an African proverb or something like that. Dig the well before you're thirsty. The problem is nobody ever thinks, There's a damn good chance. I'm going to be thirsty pretty

[00:14:00] soon. Everyone's that'll never happen to me.
And I was definitely in that camp. I was like, oh, dig the well before you're thirsty. You don't want to call in relationships and then be needy and I'll get into all that in a second. And the how tos, but nobody thinks my life is going to super, just implode. And then I'm going to have to figure out how to start from scratch because one, it rarely happens.
Thank goodness. And two, nightmare scenarios are pretty rare. Just like people whose houses get destroyed in an earthquake. Maybe they're insured for that in California. But a lot of us are just like the odds are slim. That's why I only pay a few hundred bucks a year on insurance because I can replace a couch.
You know what I'm saying? You don't expect this type of thing to happen. It's no good way to live, but when it does. If you've dug the well, you are going to be okay if you haven't, you have your work cut out for you. You're screwed.
Hala Taha: Yeah, so let's talk about that. It's really important to throw out lifelines to your connections when you don't need them.
So that when you are in a pickle, you can call on people and they won't be like, oh, like you're just calling out of the blue. I don't really want to help

[00:15:00] you. You're just showing up out of nowhere. So how do you sow the seeds for your community and ensure that when you do need help, you have the connections there for you.
Jordan Harbinger: I love the term lifelines. Actually, I've got an online course that I give away for free about networking called six minute networking. And maybe we can plug that like the end or something. The one of the first exercises, I don't think it's the first it's one of the first it's called layoff lifelines. And so I love the term lifelines.
What this exercise is fine. Make a list of 10, 15 people where if you got laid off today, who would be on that list of oh my gosh, I better call my old boss. I better call that guidance counselor from school. I got to call my neighbor's dad from growing up. Cause he was a successful entrepreneur and I know he's got like a multinational companies on the board or something.
I better call my. These people like make that list now and reach out to them now, because if you get laid off today, that phone call is like, Hey Jim, how's it going?

[00:16:00] Yes. Do you know where I can get a job? Because I don't know where my next meal is coming from. And they're like, whoa, we haven't talked in eight years.
I wish you well, but have you heard of like hotjobs.net? And you're like, oh, and help me. But if you reach out to them now and you have no agenda, and you're like, Hey look, Jim, it's been eight years. I have been garbage at keeping in touch. I like to keep my network going as I get older. I realize how important that is.
I know you're a successful entrepreneur. I should have learned. I should have taken the opportunity to learn from you 10 years ago, but I didn't. Anyway, what's new. I, do you still live in Michigan? Nothing, no agenda. Just keeping in touch. And then you literally keep that relationship going. Is that person more likely to help you after two years of?
Oh my gosh, the Jordan of guy who I talked to once every three to six months, or is it like this dude who comes out of nowhere? And if you need a better analogy or metaphor, think of it like this or example, I should say, think of it like this, old friend from high school says, Hey, Hala, what's up? And you're like, oh, Hey,

[00:17:00] what's going on, Jordan?
I think you were in my bio class and I'm like, yeah. And you're like, in your head, you're like Herbalife or Scientology like when are you going to tell me what you are trying to get from me? Because it sure as hell isn't what's going on. I heard you have a Chihuahua. Like you want something?
And I am suspicious until I find out what that is. But if I just reach out and say, Hey, I'm reaching out to people because I've been crap to keeping in touch and I have kids and I'm 40 and I'm socially isolated and it looks like you're successful. What's up. And then you're suspicious. But then in a month, when I send you another message, you're less suspicious.
And then in six months after six other messages, or two years after 10 other messages, you're like, that's just Jordan. He just keeps in touch and he's a nice person and he's got a career and he's fine. Then if I'm like, oh, I've got a big problem. You are a million times more likely to help me because I haven't tried to hide the ball.
I haven't tried. I didn't use you for something I've been keeping and maintaining a relationship in a way that required very frankly, very

[00:18:00] little investment from me, other than giving a crap about somebody other than myself for five minutes a month.
Hala Taha: So you have two practicals that I think really nicely to this, the first one is creating lists for your different types of people that are in your network.
And then I remember hearing something about connect four. Do you mind just sharing that advice with our listeners?
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So connect four is something I do every single day in the morning. Usually weekdays, honestly. It's not always four people. Sometimes it's one or two, but I scroll, I open up my phone or I message or whatever.
I scroll all the way down, mostly to the bottom. And there will be text threads there. Cause it sorts by most recent, as you are aware, I go and I find somebody where I'm like, oh my gosh, this date on this thing is like 7, 12, 20 18. What is this guy doing, he's like a YouTuber that I ran into at a convention. And then we ended up splitting an Airbnb because of the hotel Rez fell through like people like that or just a friend that you've lost track of or lost touch with.

[00:19:00] And I'll say, Hey, what's going on? I've done a bad job keeping in touch, or I say, Hey, it's been like a year or two what's news with you. I had a kid, I got married. I'm not sure if I told you that I moved up to nor Cal. I know you were in LA, are you still out there? What's the latest, no rush on the reply. Just get back to me whenever you can.
And I'll go through why that script is important. But a lot of times those people will respond and go Jordan. Oh my gosh. I haven't heard from you in forever. Yeah. The last time we saw each other was at that conference in San Diego with a hotel Rez fell through and you get the conversation going,
Usually it falls off after three or four texts because we both have lives and we don't really, there's not a whole lot going on there, but I keep that refreshed. And it makes sense. It's really easy. It's really scalable. It doesn't take up time. I was going to do somewhere else. This is, you can do this between sets on the whatever machine at the gym in the morning, like this is Starbucks, coffee line drill activity.
This is not something that takes half an hour. It takes so the reason I do that is because those are your weak and dormant ties. And if you

[00:20:00] re-engage, those, what you'll find is most of them will either not reply fun or they will reply and nothing will come of it. It'll be like, yeah, I'm reviewing VR gear on YouTube.
Cool. If I ever run into anybody. Who's a good connection. I'll make that intro later. But whatever, usually nothing but one out of let's say 10 or 20, which is a few every week. If you're doing four people a day, What happens is someone will hit me up like in two months and go, Hey Jordan, do you ever do speaking?
And I'll say, yeah, why you, while you were top of mind, because we talked to the other day and I'm walking into my annual sales meeting and we're looking for a keynote speaker, we've got a $20,000 budget. It's in a nice resort in Florida. Would that be something you're interested in because I'm throwing a few names in the hat and I'll be like, yeah, I would love to do that.
You will get opportunities like that. And sometimes they'll say, Hey, do you know anybody? I can hire for X, Y, Z job. Maybe I'm not looking for a job, but maybe someone else in my network is looking for that. And then I have an opportunity to help the person who just

[00:21:00] texted me and asked, and I have this amazing opportunity for somebody else in my network who may be as a graphic designer.
And it will be super grateful to have a corporate client that I just grabbed out of thin air. And I make that introduction and it costs me nothing. It costs me seconds of my time.
Hala Taha: Yeah, totally. And I think this is what you call social capital. Could you just define what that is?
Jordan Harbinger: So Social capital is essentially referral currencies.
So a lot of people will object to the whole networking and relationship development thing. And elses something like, oh, I don't have time to design free websites for people. Cause I always say give without the expectation of getting anything in return, ABG is what the name of that is. Instead of ABC always be closing, like what's in it for me, it's ABG always be giving or always be generous.
What's in it for other people in my network. So for, from that perspective, I'm building referral currency as much as possible. So the people who object and say. I'm a web designer. I can't just help people

[00:22:00] for free and design free websites. I'm not asking you to do that. If you're a graphic designer, you're a web designer.
I'm not saying make free graphics for everybody who texts you and says, I got a friend that needs graphics. What I'm saying is connect people in your network with other people in your network. That's what makes it scalable. That's what makes it scalable for you. If you have to build a free website for somebody that might only be a Saturday afternoon.
You only have so many of those to give to somebody for free. And then if 99 out of a hundred people never help you back. Your investment ratio is pretty, your ROI is bad, but if I'm introducing people and I'm helping both of them mutually, now I'm helping two people instead of just one. And I'm doing it in a way where I could do that a hundred times a month before I even make a dent in my calendar and my available time in my Workday.
I'm making dozens of introductions now each month. And it's just people saying, wow, Jordan, I owe you one and stuff shakes out of that like you wouldn't believe speaking gigs. The sales thing that I just gave you was a real example for somebody

[00:23:00] the other day said, Hey, I really appreciate you hooking this up by the way, the company that you got me a job at is producing a reality TV show.
I threw your name in the hat. Now I'm hosting a show potentially like that came out of nowhere, quote, unquote, nowhere. I've had people where I've helped them figure out which neighborhood to live in Los Angeles by introducing them to people that live in that neighborhood and then finding out that they now work at Spotify so they can hook them up.
They got me a feature in Spotify. Like that stuff is real and it looks like I'm just getting lucky, but in some of that is luck, but the majority of it is, I happened to just roll the dice thousands of times a year, by making introductions and getting a good impression from a lot of people. And those people are like that
Jordan guy is not bad. He got me this job, that Jordan guy is not bad. He introduced me to my wife like that is good referral currency. And it comes back and pays you back. Even if the ROI is 99 times out of a hundred, not coming back that one time in a hundred where somebody does give you something is fine because the whole hundred

[00:24:00] times cost me nothing.
Hala Taha: Totally. I have a very similar strategy. I really think that you should never try to hoard your network the minute that you're hoarding your network. It's because you're insecure and you feel like you can be replaced, but in fact, it just only makes you stronger to introduce you to other people because you become more valuable to them.
And then they feel like they owe you something for introducing you to this opportunity. And they'll think about you the next time. You have a cool strategy called the double opt-in introduction. I never heard of it before I heard it from you. So would you mind sharing that?
Jordan Harbinger: Sure. So the double opt-in introduction, and by the way, before I dive down that rabbit hole, I will say that you're right.
If you hoard your network, it atrophies. So think of your network, like a muscle that gets bigger with you is not like a pie that once it's eaten, it's gone. I see a lot of people that understand this and that's great, but there's a lot of people that don't feel like, Ooh, I don't want to use that connection right now.
And it's okay, when did you meet the CEO of such and such three years ago. Do you honestly think that they remember you at

[00:25:00] all? They don't, you haven't reached out to them. You haven't kept in touch. And even if you haven't fed them any deals like introducing, you have to be somebody who's good enough to be introduced.
So you're not just oh yeah, I know the CEO of Disney. Let me introduce every Tom, Dick and Harry to Bob Iger. Like not a good idea, but if you're like, Hey. Bob, I wouldn't bug you, but this person's a superstar and they just, their contract is ending at this radio station. Who's the person at ESPN that signs new talent.
You should get ahold of this guy. He'll be like, wow, this Jordan guy's really looking out for me. You do that two or three times. You've built referral currency. If I go, Ooh, I don't want to bother Bob Iger about this. I'm not going to help this other guy get a career at ESPN. I'm useless now, what use am I? I'm quiet.
So are the rest of the 7 billion people on earth? They're not in his inbox. Who cares? So you have to use your connections. You make them stronger. Otherwise you just have somebodies email address and you're just praying they remember you. Fat chance. So the double opt-in what this is. This is where you ask permission

[00:26:00] from both parties to make an introduction.
Let's say that. You are a sports caster or something like that. And your contract is ending with iHeartRadio and you want to move to a Disney owned station. I don't know. They might own that. I'm not sure. So let's say you want to move to that and I, and you tell me like, Hey, this is coming up. Can you introduce me to somebody over there?
I get ahold of the right person. Who's in charge of that radio division for you. I don't just go, Hey, radio CEO, my friend Hala CC'd here really wants a job. And then that guy's, okay. I'm not the right person for this. I left six months ago. I'm retired. Nice to meet you. Sorry to waste your time. I look like an idiot or they're like, how has he emailed me 17 times?
I don't really like her. I'm not going to do this. Thanks for making it. So I have to now respond. I'm sure that's not true. Everyone likes you, but you don't want to throw the monkey on their back because they're just going to get annoyed every time they see you thinking great. And I've got to explain my way out of this

[00:27:00] or they say, yeah, we already know each other, in fact she's
sitting across the table from me right now working, by like all of those make me look dumb. They don't help the other person and they don't help you. So what I should do is email and say, Hey, see, important CEO guy, my friend Hala, her contract's about to end. I'm not sure if you know her already she's top notch talent.
She really wants to be a sportscaster and do live radio announcing. Are you looking for this? Who's the right person to get in touch with, feel free to say no, if now's not the right time. They come back and say, Yeah, I would love to do that. The person that you're supposed to meet is Daniel. I'm going to go ahead and CC him here.
Then I come back to you and I go, Hey, good news Hala, Daniel CC'd here is the right guy to talk to. He's interested in making it happen. You all can leave me out of the chain from here out. Glad I could help. Now, if they say no. Which is everyone's first question. What if they say no, then I come back to you solo and I say, Hey, Hala, I did reach out on your behalf now is not the right time.
They're not hiring anybody or they're

[00:28:00] not looking to expand in this department. I'll let you know if I have other ideas of people, but now's not the right time. That way the other person doesn't have to say no to you. That's an awkward position and they're going to get annoyed. If I put them in that position, they can say no to me, because we're buddies like, nah I've seen so-and-so's work.
It's rubbish. It's not a good fit for the brand. I don't have to then go back and go, Hey, he hates you. Sorry. I can go back and say, now's not the right time. And I don't have to say the right time is never because your work sucks. That's something that doesn't matter, but unless, unless the run a feedback. Yeah, and those were cruel like that, but we're probably not.
So you don't want to throw the monkey on someone's back. You ask each party and then when you get yeses from both sides then, and only then do you connect people that will save everyone headache and it signals professionalism. People will go. This Jordan guy does not waste my time. He gets it.
Hala Taha: Yeah. I think that's like super great advice.
Hopefully everybody finds that valuable. From my research, we do a ton of research on young and profiting podcasts. I found out that you were actually a very socially

[00:29:00] anxious child. And so you didn't just one day had all this confidence and a fellow podcaster who's my friend Mark metree.
He wanted me to ask you what your top social anxiety and shyness tips were?
Jordan Harbinger: Ooh. Yeah. I was a shy kid and that's a whole can of worms. I would say if there's, if this is a teenager, somebody that's like pathologically shy or like. Going through growing pains or whatever, I would say go to therapy because you don't even know what the reasons behind that are
look, if you're in middle school and you're shy, congratulations, like that's pretty normal. But if you're shy because of trauma, abuse, you're an only child and you've never been good at making friends. That's worth seeing a professional and figuring out what's going on there. But if it's just Hey, I moved to a new town, join things like sports teams, join activities.
I would make a list of things that you want to learn. Like Italian cooking. Let's say you're an adult. Cause that's what we're talking to. You want to learn Italian cooking. You want to learn how to play lacrosse or whatever, make a list of those

[00:30:00] things. Find classes or leagues in your area, and then just tick those off because let's say you want to learn Italian cooking.
Great. I take an Italian cooking class. Do I meet someone there who shares that hobby? Yes. Maybe if not. Okay. I've learned Italian cooking. I didn't waste my time. What's a waste of time is like hanging out at some bar, trying to meet alcoholics or whatever that hang out there all the time. Are you making friends?
Not really. Do you have a common hobby? Not really. You hate being there and they go there all the time to watch a game and you annoy them. That's not good. So make a list of skills you want to learn, go learn those skills, meet people in those specific activity groups. That's good for people who've moved to a new town or something like that.
Also sports leagues are great for that because it forces you to interact with people, and it builds comradery with other people in a way that causes you to build real friendships based on those commonalities, not some sort of weird, forced things. That's why speed dating is a joke.
Like you can meet people you're attracted to that you don't hate right away, but let's be real. Like people don't do it unless they're desperate. And the reason

[00:31:00] that they do it then is because it's like the last option they have. It's far better to meet someone through your social circle. Because they're vetted and they have mutual friends, which means they probably have similar values, which means they probably have similar outlook on life.
That's much better. So you want to screen for that. You don't want to like dating online, which everyone now does. Great, but it's obviously Of a win than meeting someone through a friend or meeting someone through a common activity because it's far more pressure and it's far less
effective.
Hala Taha: Yeah, totally. I think that's really good advice. I know that you are a confidence expert and first impressions are really important. I actually did my first podcast episode, like two years ago on first impressions, it was like, basically like an audio book. I did so much research. And after that episode, I realized that first impressions are probably one of the best life skills that you could learn how to do.
I heard that you have this drill, that you do a doorway drill that can help you build confidence. And I was hoping you could share that with us.
Jordan Harbinger: Sure. So if you're

[00:32:00] watching this on video, I look like I'm hunched over and in a murder basement. Don't judge me based on that, but when you go through it, so most people will say like, all right, my first impression is no good.
What do I say? What do I do? That is not really how first impressions work. A lot of people think their first impression is made when they open their mouth. Not really the case. Your first impression is made non-verbally. And we know that, because it, let's put it this way, test it for yourself.
Next time you go to the mall. Look around you. Are you getting first impressions from people that are not talking with you? Okay. I think, yeah, we are, right? Like you're walking down the street, you're walking through the mall. You're thinking tall, short, attractive, scary punk alts, whatever hipster like your mate, you're getting first impressions.
Your brain. Can't even for people to think they're not judgy. Your brain is literally hardwired to judge. It's a safety mechanism. It's kept you alive, the human race alive. So I don't care like what how woke you are. You're still doing that. And your first impression is made non-verbally. You can prove that to yourself.
If you don't believe me from the example,

[00:33:00] what we want to do is create a positive, open and friendly, confident, first impression. And the way that we do that is by being upright. So stand up straight, shoulders back, chest up, chin up, smile on your face. You don't have to exaggerate it. Cause you'll look really silly.
You'll look like a moron. But you have to do that. And you have to remember to do that every time you walk into a room. That's the trick, right? Like great. I now have to remember to do this 24/7, totally unrealistic. I say anchor it to something that is a memory trigger like a doorway. So anchor it to a doorway.
Now every time you enter a room, usually through a doorway, you'll be upright, positive, open, confident, friendly, whatever sort of positive adjective you want to throw in there. You'll have good posture. You'll have good nonverbal communication to the room that you're open, positive, confident, friendly, whatever you want.
Now the trick is anchoring it to a door. You're going to forget that like two seconds after you hear this, because you go through doors all day. So grab some post-it notes and put them up at eye level. You don't have to write anything on them. Just get

[00:34:00] those little green ones that are always on clearance, because nobody buys them, put them up at eye level in the doorway.
Then when you walk through a door, you'll see that little post-it note and you'll be your brain will go, wait, what is that? It's called a pattern interrupt. It's like a hidden, cheesy hypnosis thing. It'll interrupt your autopilot thoughts like, oh, I've got to go downstairs and make some macaroni and cheese.
You'll see that. And you'll go, oh, I got a green post-it note. What was that for? Right where I'm going through the door, open, upright, positive, confident body language. You'll remember to reset your non-verbals as you go through that door. So put it up at your door and your room, your office, the bathroom you use, whatever the beauty is, you can throw it up at work and a blank post-it note is not gonna attract too much attention.
You can leave it up. It'll be up there for three months until the janitor finally says what the hell is this? And takes it off. So you can do that. And the reason that this is important is not only do you have good nonverbal first impression. But it's a self-reinforcing set of skills because once people see you as open, positive, confident, and friendly, they will treat you like that.
If you got your nose buried in your phone and you're getting coffee, the barista is going to be like, Hey, can I help

[00:35:00] you knowing they don't want to bother you. You're texting. It's very important. You're very important, man. They won't want to bother you, but if you come in and you're beaming, smiling looking friendly and open, engaging them, they're going to be engaged with you.
And that will continue to train you how you are perceived by others. And what we know from science and psychology is that the way that others perceive us also informs our own behavior. So it's positively reinforcing. If people treat us like we're open, positive, confident, and friendly, we will start to act more positive, open, confident, and friendly, which will cause other people to again, be more of that way with us.
And we will eventually be able to almost program the entire room. To treat us better and to treat us as high status so to speak because those are high social status behaviors. So you can do that. And then you don't need post-it notes because you're realizing that, wow, I get treated pretty damn well when I create a good first impression, which I'm now doing automatically.
Because every time I do it, I get a reward, a cognitive reward, and that people are good to me. You can

[00:36:00] train and retrain yourself to do that. And then you don't need post-it notes anymore. That by the way, that drill is in six minute networking. So if that was all like, wait, what happens? Go to six minute networking and you can get it.
Hala Taha: He's got so many great resources. I agree. It's so important to actually build the habit because then when you're in a high stakes situation, you're in a job interview. You're public speaking. You're not thinking about your body language. You're just doing it naturally because when people think about their body language, it tends to get really awkward.
I definitely would agree to to build the habit and make it more of a natural thing than something that you actually have to think about. But that's going to take practice and hard work.
Jordan Harbinger: It's true. If you start thinking about your body language, because a lot of people go, that sounds like a lot of trouble.
I'm just going to remember it. When I go to this cheesy cocktail mixer. So they walk into the mixer and they're like, hello people, I'm here to be open and confident and friendly. And everyone's okay, this guy is a little weird, but whatever. And you start talking with people and then you feel yourself slouching.
So you go, oh my gosh, I got to stand up straight. I got to have a

[00:37:00] open, upright, positive, confident, nonverbal communication. And then you do that. You're proud of yourself. And then you go, oh crap, What are they talking about? I totally tuned out because I was trying to straighten up and smile and I was looking around and I'm clearly not present.
Ah, crap. I just did it again. I'm talking to myself and my internal dialogue is drowning out what this person is saying. And then pretty soon they're like, I have to go to the bathroom because you seem like a serial killer and I don't wanna talk to you anymore. So they run not walk away from you. And you're like, oh, this Jordan Harbinger, crept doesn't even work.
And the reason is because it has to be relegated to the level of a habit. It has to be subconscious or you are going to look like a weird alien robot that has never seen a human before.
Hala Taha: Yeah. Cause if you're not present and not paying attention, they're going to think that you're weird and you're awkward and they're not going to know why necessarily, but they're going to feel it and not want to be there anymore.
I am going to be a little bit selfish and let's move on to. Podcasting. So you are like a podcasting guru. You were one of the top

[00:38:00] podcasters in the game. You've been doing it longer than most people. You're not like a celebrity who became a podcaster for your podcast who became a celebrity, which is a rare thing.
Jordan Harbinger: Celebrities in air quotes on that last part.
Hala Taha: I think you're a celebrity. You really are. Everybody I talked to, you knew who you were. So I think you're a celebrity. I'm like you, I researched my guests. I don't just do it off the cuff. A lot of my other podcasts. I have tons of podcasts or friends because I'm a
connector. I like to connect with people and I study for my episodes. I studied 10, 20 hours and I heard as I was researching you that you do the same. I listen to other interviews. I read books, blogs, anything that I can find, social media posts. I really do my due diligence. And I have a team who helps me choose.
I have multiple brains on the project. So I'm wondering, is there anything that you do that you think that I don't know about in terms of researching a guest?
Jordan Harbinger: I bet there is. I've got my little secrets, but I'll tell them to, yes. I read the book. I think a lot of people, when they read, they skip the dedications

[00:39:00] and they skip the appendix or whatever it is and not the appendix, the, a epilogue or whatever comes after that.
You've got to read the dedication and I know this, there's a good example of why this is important. A friend of mine. He told me to interview this infectious disease specialist, this years ago now. And she was an African-American woman, super, super sharp. And she's yeah, she's really interesting to get her on your show.
So I grabbed the book and I read the book and she had said something in the dedication, like thanks to my parents who adopted me some, I'm paraphrasing who adopted me from Africa. And now I've got the chance to go back and help the entire continent, whatever, something like that. And I was like, oh wow.
This informs her entire reason for doing the work that she's doing. Like she was adopted out of this third world situation. Now she's a doctor. She wants to go back there and help improve the standard of living for all of these children in that continent. My friend didn't read that. And when he heard my interview, he was like, dude
I had no idea she was

[00:40:00] adopted from Africa and I was like, yeah. That's literally the entire reason why she got into this line of work. After the interview, she was like, yeah, nobody brings that up. And I was like, that's because they're not reading it. They skipped a chapter one or they don't read the book.
Of course they haven't seen the dedication to your parents. That explains why you do what you do. They literally don't do it, since it's not on your website, bio, which is like where most people begin and end their prep. They just miss it. And I was like, you should consider putting it in your website, bio, because it's an amazing story.
And it informs what you do. She was like, yeah, I'll do, I'll look into that and I'll do that someday. Whatever. There's a lot of stuff like that. Other things that I do other than reading the actual complete book and not trying to be all clever and hack the book, I will look on Amazon, look at the negative reviews, but look at most helpful because positive reviews.
Yeah. Great, sort sort by most helpful, no matter what, you'll get a good critique. A good review on good reads and Amazon, good reads is where readers leave reviews of books, but on negative reviews, sort by most helpful. Cause you won't get them when it's like damaged when it came in the mail sucks can't get

[00:41:00] refund, like that's what in one-star reviews for books on Amazon.
But if you sort by most helpful often you'll find something that's Hey, I wanted to like this book, but as a fellow infectious disease specialist for the United nations, here are the top 10 things that I think are wrong with it. And that is gold because it's not in the book. And that's the point of why the negative review from this super well credentialed person is actually accurate.
Hey, this is not correct. Or, Hey, there's political bias in here that you didn't even see because it's really insidious. And this critique is written by somebody who's the other expert in the field that person is in. Another thing I will do is actually reach out to other experts in that field.
So if you're interviewing an infectious disease specialist. Don't just be like, yeah, everything this person said is true. Go ahead and find somebody else that doesn't work at the same company or is in the same hospital as them and say, have you heard of this person? And if you're interviewing big names, they'll be like, yeah.
That's like the OG of our industry. And you go, are you a fan? If so, why? If not, why

[00:42:00] not? And sometimes it'll be like I don't know much about him, but I know my boss hates him and I'm like, can you, would you mind asking why? And sometimes it's yeah, they went to med school together and he stole his girlfriend.
But usually it's not that. Usually, it's he totally jacked a bunch of public patents and now charges a bunch for what should be like medically freely available. And isn't innovative at all. He's just the guy, who's the best at getting publicity for his specific brand of medicine or his specific brand of whatever you want to call it.
And he's actually doing more harm than good because you rubbing all the science away from this really noble cause. And you get these awesome little critiques from people that you're not going to get. If you're just reading their stuff. Remember if you want real information, if you want to get the truth, you can't have one source.
That's that person that's ridiculous. A journalist would never do that, but podcasters aren't journalists, they'll be like, yeah, screw it. I'm just going to read your bio and take everything as gospel. Thanks for coming on the show.
Hala Taha: I think

[00:43:00] that's great advice. I'm definitely going to take into account a lot of that.
So we're similar podcasters in that we do interviews and I often interview people that I don't know much about their space, and that's why I do all the research and try to be prepped so that I can say something smart when we're having the conversation and ask the right questions. Did you ever do like a class on like improv or anything like that to help you just be more present and know how to respond and keep the conversation going?
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I did. I took a couple of improv courses, probably at UCB back in the day. And they were cool. I had a lot of fun. The problem with places like UCB, in my opinion, my super amateur opinion is that they're full of real comedians that are actually funny, so during improv one and two, they don't care. They're like, it's a bunch of schmoes.
It's taught by people that know what they're doing, but once you start getting further than that, it's okay, here's what your first improv shows going to look like. And I'm like, hang on. Not going to be a professional improv or join the club of

[00:44:00] people that like hang out here every week and do shows and that's okay.
But you're done at that point. There's no moving up from there for a lot of these improv places, because that's a funnel to get you into their like groups. So I didn't move up very far, especially in Hollywood because I don't, I'm not going to be on the next, like big sitcom. And you'll see people at those improv theaters that are legit great.
I highly recommend improv as a skillset, but you have to be careful kind of what you expect from it, because if you go to a place that you think is the best, cause it's Groundlings and it has a great reputation, it will be great, but you are going to be outgunned after like the second level. And then you might not be getting anything from it because everyone else is like a professional.
It's like going to karaoke in Hollywood. You ever do that. You go to karaoke in Hollywood and everyone's like straight off the voice and is like a professional singer, except they can't pay. They can't pay their bills. Cause singing doesn't pay the bills these days, but they like did backups for Christina Aguilera and you're like,

[00:45:00] I'm drunk and I want to sing journey and they're like, get out of here.
Hala Taha: Yeah. I've been trying to find a good improv class, but I guess I'll have to keep looking. When you first started your podcast. Like I said, it was back in 2008. You were like the only game in town. There was like 800 podcasts. Now I just checked the stats yesterday. There's 850,000 podcasts out there. So how would you stand out today as a podcaster?
Jordan Harbinger: So the good news is only about 300,000 of them are active. So you only competing against 300,000 podcasts, not all 862,000 or whatever the actual number. That doesn't, that's called comfort for most people. The way that I stand out is I do, I'm not particularly talented as like a comedian host like my show is not comedy.
Anybody with better connections can book better guests than me. So that's, but I work on my network. So that, that helps in terms of guest booking. I make sure that my show is really tightly produced. I don't cough in my show and then

[00:46:00] leave it in there. I don't go, hang on. I got to go to the bathroom and then leave the 32nd to a minute and a half, depending on whether or not you wash your hands, pause and the show, like I don't do that.
I edit that out. My producer does, and I also do a bunch of the aforementioned show preparation that really helps because a lot of people don't do that. That's what makes you a commodity it's like, why should I listen to you. I do 20 hours of prep for the interview, name one other person that does that.
They're like, eh, that's probably a lot. Okay. All right. You got me on that one. So I don't have to be the funniest. I don't have to be the most dynamic. I don't have to have a list celebrities on all the time. I can outwork most people in terms of the interview quality, then having just a basic level of broadcasting skill.
Plus my work ethic is enough to help there. If you're super funny. Then lean on that, but most of us are never going to be the funniest. So we have to skill stack. I can be medium, low, funny, or just low, funny, but not super serious. I can be super, super high in terms of the amount of prep. I can have super, super high production, but not as high as reply all that

[00:47:00] has musical transitions between each segment and like crunchy gravel sound effects. When they're telling a story, I don't have to go there, but I can stack the level of funny, the level of production, the level of prep, the level of my guests to the level of my ability to market.
All of those things can be medium, but when stacked together, it's a pretty tall stack. It's called skill stacking. You're not going to, you don't have to be the funniest. You don't have to be the best marketer. You don't have to be the best broadcaster. You don't have to have the best ability to get a guest to cry on stage or on the mic.
But if you stack everything together. You are uniquely good. Maybe you are uniquely good with what results you have and then you try to gradually improve each of those particular vectors or skills. So you work on your humor with improv, you work on your production by hiring the right people or learning it yourself.
You work on your network to get good guests. If you try to be like I'm going to be the best at XYZ. You've got your work cut out for you because world-class in any one area is really tough, but to be world-class in a mixture of three to

[00:48:00] four areas is a lot easier because of the laws of sheer probability. You might not be the best basketball player because of certain skills, like one skill here, but if you're a good leader and you're pretty good at free throws and you're pretty good at dribbling and you're pretty good at passing and you reasonably fast, you're in the NBA dude.
Like you're good, but if you're just a great team captain, but you suck at everything else. We got a lot of those, if you're good at free throws, but you always slam the damn ball against your foot and it goes off bad bounds. You're not making it. You have to skill stack. That's what I do to stand out.
And that's what literally everyone listening or watching should do to stand out at work. Podcasts aside, stand out at work by skill stacking. Are you the smartest person in the office? No, but you show up on time. You stay later, you worked really hard. Oh. And you've got a network, so you know how to bring in business.
Oh. And you set up the software solutions so that this workflow is better, and you speak German. Okay. Now you're valuable. You're no longer replaceable by the other guy who just works an hour longer every day.

[00:49:00]
Hala Taha: Totally. We talk about skill stacking a lot on the show. I had a Scott Adams, who's a creator of Dilbert.
And he was like, I think he's the first one who coined skill stacking. And then Dan Schwab Bell also, we were talking about skill stacking. It's such an interesting concept and it's so true because today it's so hard to be the best that's something like that's such like an unachievable thing to do, but if you put like a set of skills together in a unique way, then you have a unique offering that you can provide value to people. So I think that's one of the biggest takeaways of my podcast, like I've ever had period.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I like the skill stacking term. I think it is Scott Adams and he's right. Like I think his example is I'm not the funniest.
I'm not the best cartoon artist. I'm not the best marketer. I'm not the best writer, but he's like when I add my medium high of those skills together. I have the world's most successful syndicated cartoon ever.
Hala Taha: Exactly, so we were just talking about how there's like only around 300,000 active podcasts. Most people like end after seven episodes.
Why do you think that people lose steam

[00:50:00] when it comes to podcasting? Or why podcasts just fail in general, aside from not prepping.
Jordan Harbinger: Most people have no idea how much work it is.
Hala Taha: True.
Jordan Harbinger: So they do this thing where they're like, oh, I'm on episode seven. And I only have 300 downloads per episode. How many downloads do you have per episode?
Jordan. Oh, okay. Oh wait. I'm never going to get there. I'm done because people will start a show and I hear this all the time and it's not just randos. If there are celebrities who have their managers and agents sitting in a room with me. And they're like, Jordan, we're really not worried about bringing traffic to this show because we've got so-and-so and his new movies coming out next week.
So we're pretty sure we can drive traffic fast forward, three months they've quit. And I go, oh, what happened? And they go, yeah. So he was only getting 18,000 downloads per episode. And he was like, look, man, I got to film Avengers. I'm out, or like they're a Fox news commentator. They're not gonna sit around and do a show that pays him 600 bucks an

[00:51:00] episode. Like they're just not gonna do it. And I'm like, I told you that you have to work hard and do this. And they're like, yeah she tweeted it. And I was like nobody gives a crap about your stupid Twitter. Nobody cares. Did she tweet it
literally every single day? Did she engage with all of her fans there? Did she then put that on Instagram? Did she repurpose this? Did you buy $40,000 a year in ad traffic and drive it to the show? Oh no, she tweeted it twice. Of course you failed. Of course you freak and failed. Podcasting is like the great equalizer, you can have Will Ferrell who, some people love.
Some people don't. He did a show called Anchor Man. They're not renewing that. Why? Because it didn't do as well as it needed to do. And it might've gotten a ton of downloads, but it didn't get enough to satisfy the people making it and they couldn't afford to keep doing it. There are a lot of, no, no shade on Will Farrell at all.
I'm just giving it as an example. There were plenty of people from major news networks that started podcasts that have zero interest in the audience is dead. Why isn't the top

[00:52:00] podcast? Why isn't the top 10 Anderson Cooper? Where is the Oprah podcast? Oh, it's in the top 200, but it's not even in the top 100, most of the time.
Why it's Oprah? It's freaking Oprah. Yeah. People are less interested in what she's doing on a podcast than they were on daytime TV in the 90's. Oh you get other people where you're like, wait, the number one podcasts is a comedian named Joe Rogan who talks about psychedelics and then makes smokes, rolls up a J, I don't get it.
I get it. He's engaging with his fans. He's engaging in a topics that people want to hear. He's not coming on and taking something that they do on CNN literally every day that any broadcaster can do and being like, now you can download this, no thanks. The reason I'm downloading Joe Rogan or Jordan Harbinger or a Hala Taha is because I don't want to see what a buttoned up newscaster is going to read off a teleprompter today because that crap is what my mom watches.
Hala Taha: Yeah, totally.
Jordan Harbinger: So that recipe doesn't work and big media companies are dying. They are buying up

[00:53:00] shows like crazy because you can't just walk into podcasting and be a celebrity. Look at the biggest YouTube channels. There's a lot of vloggers, but there's a lot of celebrities, there's a lot of like late night show clips and stuff.
Look, your social media accounts. What's a huge social media account. Every celebrity has one. Yes. There are some influencers, but look at podcasting, the biggest podcast, none of them are celebrities almost none. The 200 has a handful of actual celebrities in it period. And those are the most popular shows in the world.
Hala Taha: And they probably wouldn't even recognize those people if you saw them on the street, which is so cool. Podcasting is awesome. I'm so happy that I started this journey, honestly. So we're out of time. We probably have about another five minutes. A question that I ask everybody on the show is what is your secret to profiting in life?
And this doesn't have to be just about money.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What's my secret to profiting in life. Quote unquote, is making sure that I prioritize this sounds so cliche. Let me

[00:54:00] stop. I was going to say prioritize what's really important to me. Up in town with my family, nah. Okay. That's true. But everyone says that.
So I'm not going to say that. Profiting in life, I realize that over a certain amount of income, science, literally like actual data shows that you're just not that much happier. Like billionaires are really happy, but between and I'm not even exaggerating between 1 million and like 500 million, you have this marginal increase in happiness.
That is basically almost too small to even measure. How much more work is it to get from like your $200,000 a year income to like your, to $200 million. It's an enormous amount of life altering, never see your kids work for most people for 99.9% of people. So why do that if you're not actually going to be any happier?
So I basically said, okay, I've got income goals. My wife's on board with these. If we hit these numbers, we can retire at a certain point. That's early enough to like really spend just

[00:55:00] most of our time with our kids, doing whatever we want. My business becomes a hobby. And I don't have to worry about the numbers.
I don't have to have a marketing department, I can really chill. I can do one episode a week because now I'm making passive income off of interest of a million dollars a year when I'm 50. So I don't want to miss my kids' high school and college or miss my kids' elementary and high school years because I'm grinding to make
300,000 instead of 250. And you have to get those numbers beforehand, because if you don't, if you don't set those goals, what happens is you go, oh man, I'm making 350, 400,000. Here we come, I'll making 400, 4 50. Here we come. And then pretty soon your kids are like, yeah, dad, my dad was really busy, but it was awesome.
Cause I had three cars. Like what and then you retire and you're like, I'm rich and nobody gives a crap except for you.
Hala Taha: That is amazing guidance. It's so important to know your priority is to know where you want to spend your time in lifetime is your most valuable

[00:56:00] assets.
So you've got to spend it wisely. Where can our listeners go to find out more about you and everything that you do?
Jordan Harbinger: So I'm on the Jordan Harbinger show. It's a podcast. If you're listening to podcasts, I do have a YouTube at JordanHarbinger.com/youtube, but I only put one in 10 of my episodes up there.
The Jordan Harbinger show is also on Spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts, apple of course, and all that jazz and @jordanHarbinger.com. And I would love it if people would come and listen to the show and find something that makes them smarter. Cause that's what my show is really about.
Hala Taha: Yeah, his show is awesome. I would highly recommend it. Jordan, I look up to you so much. Thank you so much for coming on young and profiting podcast. It was such a great conversation.
Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much. That was fun.
Hala Taha: Thanks for listening to young and profiting podcast. Follow YAP on instagram @youngandprofiting and check us out at youngandprofiting.com.
If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to write us a review or comment on your favorite platform. Reviews are the number one way to thank us, especially if you read a review on apple podcasts and be sure to share this podcast with your friends and

[00:57:00] family and on social media. Thanks again to pod corn, our sponsors of the show.
If your podcaster and looking to monetize your podcast or brand, looking to share your story, head over to podcorn.com to learn more, you can find me on Instagram @yapwithhala or LinkedIn, just search for my name, Hala Taha. Big thanks to the YAP team, producers, Shiv and Peter, and the rest of the gang.
This is Hala, signing off.