#64: Turn On The Like Switch with Dr. Jack Schafer

#64: Turn On The Like Switch with Dr. Jack Schafer

#64: Turn On The Like Switch with Dr. Jack Schafer

Learn how to how to influence, attract and win people over from an ex-FBI agent! Today on the show we’re yapping with Dr. Jack Schafer, a former FBI special agent, professor, psychologist, and author of “The Like Switch.” Jack spent fifteen years conducting counter-intelligence and counterterrorism investigations, and seven years as a behavioral analyst for the FBI’s National Security Division. He developed spy recruitment techniques, interviewed terrorists, and trained agents in the art of interrogation and persuasion. To boil it down, much of Jack’s job was to convert spies into allies, by getting them to be his friend, like and trust him. Now he shares his strategies to the masses so the average person can use them in everyday situations to influence, attract, and win people over. Tune in to learn about non-verbal cues and friend signals, how to approach strangers at a party, and what you can do mitigate a heated argument.

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#64: Turn On The Like Switch with Dr. Jack Schafer

Dr. Jack Schafer:

[00:00:00] The key is you want to get that person to change their mind inside their mind before they have a chance to articulate it, because if they articulate no, and there's a psychological principle of consistency when we say no, we want to be consistent with no, and it's very difficult to change our mind. So I get to the topic of money and I see the lip purse.
I go boss, I'll bet you're taking this is way too much money, but let me explain the cost benefit. Let me explain this. Let me explain that why it is. We're doing this operation. So I'm getting him to change his mind inside his mind. Before, it would take a chance to come out and say no.
Hala Taha: You're listening to YAP, young and profiting podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit.
Welcome to the show. I'm your host and executive producer, Hala Taha, and on young and profiting podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest

[00:01:00] minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life. No matter your age, profession, or industry, there's no fluff on this podcast and that's on purpose.
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Today on the show. I'm chatting with Dr. Jack Schafer. Jack is a return guest and he was interviewed back on episode one, had a nail, your first impressions and become a more likable person. That episode is still a fan favorite. Some call it a masterpiece

[00:02:00] and I recommend you go back and listen to it. Next time you get a chance.
Jack is a former FBI special agent professors, psychologist with a PhD, an author of my all-time favorite book the like switch. I've probably listened to that book. Over 10 times, Jack spent 15 years conducting counter intelligence and counter terrorism investigations, and seven years as a behavioral analyst for the FBI.
He developed spy recruitment techniques, interview terrorists, and trained agents in the art of interrogation and persuasion to boil it down. A much of Jack's job was to convert spies into allies by getting them to be his friend and and trust him. Now he shares his strategies to the masses. So the average person can use them in everyday situations to influence, attract, and win people over.
In this episode, we'll talk about nonverbal cues and friend signals, how to approach strangers at a party and what you can do to mitigate a heated argument. Hey

[00:03:00] everyone, welcome to young and profiting podcast. I'm here with Dr. Jack Schafer. He's the author of the like switch, and I'm really excited about the show because Jack was actually my first guest ever on young and profiting podcast.
To give an introduction of our relationship. I wanted to just share a nice story about how we actually met. So when I was first thinking about having the podcast young and profiting, I reached out to about 10 authors and Jack was one of them. I wanted to have my first show on first impressions. I thought that'd be the perfect topic for our first episode.
And so I reached out to all these experts and Jack Schafer was one of them, as well as Dorie Clark. And I had zero experience. I had zero credibility in the podcast world, but I had a dream. And so I emailed them. I wrote them a lengthy email, basically begging and pleading for them to come on my show. I told them I had a former website that was fairly popular and

[00:04:00] I did really well.
I had 50 female bloggers under me. I also told them I had some radio experience, some online radio shows, but it was my first podcast ever. And I asked them to take a chance on me. Dr. Jack Schafer and Dorie Clark were the two people who did take a chance on me. And since then I've become a top 10 self-improvement podcast.
And my show gets thousands of downloads each episode. And so Jack and Dorie are two people who I'm like forever grateful for taking a chance on me. And I just wanted this to be a lesson to everyone that when you're first starting out on something, you can shoot for the stars because there are people like Jack and Dorie who will take a chance on you.
And since then, I've been able to secure such great guests because of their credibility. So thank you so much, Jack.
Dr. Jack Schafer: You're welcome. Congratulations on your success.
Hala Taha: Thank you. And do you always take a chance on everyone or was there something special about me?
Dr. Jack Schafer: I take a chance on pretty much anybody.
I believe in because people have

[00:05:00] taken a chance on me. And it's helped my career long tremendously. So I want to pay that forward.
Hala Taha: Yeah. And speaking of pay that forward recently, I had Jordan Harbinger on the show it's episode number 57. And so he is one of the top podcasters in the world. He was a founder of the art of charm podcast.
And then he's since left and started the Jordan Harbinger show. And I actually introduced Jack and Jordan to each other. They knew each other, but Jordan said he was going to ask you to be on a show. Did you guys end up getting something booked.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Yeah, we're in the, we're in the process right now.
Hala Taha: Perfect.
That's going to be such a great look for you. So again, another lesson for everybody listening is if somebody does a favor for you and you end up making it, make sure you go back and pay it forward and give them something in return when you can, when it makes sense. So I'm happy that worked out. So Jack, let's talk about you enough about me.
You are the author of a like switch. You are

[00:06:00] a cop turned, FBI agent turned author, turned professor. Tell us about your career journey. That's very different skills. How did you end up becoming an FBI agent? I think that's really interesting. And then how did you become, an author and things like that?
What was that transformation like?
Dr. Jack Schafer: It was accidental. I had just graduated from university and I didn't have a job. And a friend of mine came by and asked to ask me for an autograph and have a drink with him. I told him, sure, I'd be happy to do that. And then he said, and he wanted to stop by the Hinsdale police department first to get an application for a police officer, because he wanted to be a police officer.
We get to the Hinsdale police station and he gets an application. He starts filling out right there on the spot. And I said, look, what am I going to do while you're filling out this wrinkly application, he just says, shut up and fill out an application for you and just turn it in and, and you know how it ended up, I got the

[00:07:00] job and he didn't.
Hala Taha: Oh my gosh.
Dr. Jack Schafer: So we're still friends by the way.
Hala Taha: That's funny. And so when you were in FBI agents
Dr. Jack Schafer: it's another interesting story. I became, I never had my goal set on being an FBI agent, but I was filling my squad car up at a pump with the pump we share with another police department. And I said, goodbye to that guy said, goodbye, I'll see you tomorrow night.
And he said, no. He said, I'm starting with the FBI tomorrow. He said, you ought to fill out an application because they're hiring. So I said, why not? So I fill out an application and I got the job. So my career has been quite accidental.
Hala Taha: Wow. So you're an expert. So for everybody who's listening, who might not know who you are, you're an expert on likability and making friendships and getting people to like you.
How did you end up becoming an expert on that? Was it your field training in the FBI? What did they, how did they teach you?
Dr. Jack Schafer: I think back,

[00:08:00] I remember as early as being eight or 10 years old, my mom would take me to the, to the mall and I would sit and just watch people and fascinated with the way people behave.
And I always had an interest in people. And then when I got to the police department and eventually the FBI, I became a behavioral analyst and all those skills that I picked up, through just normal working with people and making observations, I was able to hone my skills. And the FBI trained me quite a bit on behavioral analysis.
Hala Taha: Yeah. So basically it was just, you fell into this job accidental and then you just ended up being good at that job. That's really interesting because a lot of people fall into jobs and they end up not being good at it or not liking it. Was it satisfying for you to be an FBI agent?
Dr. Jack Schafer: It was the best job I could have ever had.
I counted a privilege to wake up every day and go to work weekends, got in the way. And

[00:09:00] my career went with the snap of a finger.
Hala Taha: That's awesome!
Dr. Jack Schafer: And the reason I got good at this is because I worked counter-intelligence. In other words, I caught spies, so I'd have to catch a spy. And then our goal was to make friends with the spy, encourage him to work with us as a double agent against the country he came from and the other skills we're trying to get someone to confess to a heinous crime.
In other words, you try to, you have to build this trust with somebody, for them to tell you the secret they did something that's going to send them to jail for a long time. And that's takes a certain amount of people's skills to be able to decide or determine. How to get someone to like you enough to trust you enough to tell you that kind of secret.
Hala Taha: So you have a great formula. It's called the friendship formula. And since you're talking about how you used to have to get spies to like you and trust you, I thought a great way to. Help my

[00:10:00] listeners understand the friendship formula would be for you to use it. In an example, just for context for everyone.
Jack came on my show episode one, and we went over all the basics. So we already went over to the friendship formula, what it is. We went over a lot of his principles. So I want this to really be like a two dot O version of that podcast. So first of all, explain to us what the friendship formula is because this is one of the biggest takeaways I've ever had in my life.
And I use it almost every day. I love using the friendship formula. Tell us what that is for people who don't know, and then maybe walk us through one of your stories as an FBI agent using that formula.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Okay. The friendship formula, basically there's four elements in a personal relationship. The first one is proximity.
The second one is frequency. The third one is duration and the fourth one is intensity. So in order to have any kind of relationship at all, you have to have proximity because if you're in New York and I'm in Chicago and we don't know one another exist. Then there's no

[00:11:00] relationship. So there has to be some kind of acknowledgement or understanding that somebody else exists either virtually or in person.
The nice thing about proximity is if we just share space with other people, we establish a mutual liking for that person. Even though we don't talk to them, we may not even pay a lot of attention to them, but just the fact that we share the same space, we predispose one another to like us, and it's being proximal with somebody isn't enough.
You have to be frequently proximal with somebody and just being frequently there doesn't do a lot either. So you have to have duration. So you have to have time with that person. And the other thing, and I think the most important thing is the intensity of that relationship. So that's the kind of glue that holds that relationship together.
And so as a, an agent or as a behavioral analyst, a lot of people came to us and asked, how do you recruit. Spies or how do you recruit sources to give you

[00:12:00] information when you don't even know these people? So we came up with this personal relation index, a friendship formula, and one of the, most, most successful events that our workforce, we had a, and the I explained this in the book, we had a a Russian intelligence officer who was not very friendly and didn't want to talk to us and we needed information from that person.
So I used the formula. What I did was I just sat, I went into a cell and I just sat down and read the newspaper. That's all I did every day. And that's proximity. So once you're there long enough and frequently enough, and you spend time there, then that fear, that person has a view, then. It turns into curiosity, but one day he says, why are you here?
And I said, I'm here because I want to talk to you. And then I continued to read the newspaper. So then developed that curiosity. And then I just left the next day I came

[00:13:00] back and he says, I really want to talk to you. I said you told me you didn't want to talk to me. So I don't want to talk to you unless you want to do and he says, I really do want to talk to you. So I said, oh, okay. So I put my paper down. We engaged in a discussion where he eventually provided us the information we were after. But the whole thing is you can use that in your personal life. If you're, if you have a person of interest and you can just be where they're at, if they're in a bar or a gym, just be there.
Then what you want to do is after you're there for a certain amount of time, your frequency develops, then you want to introduce your friendship signals, which are the eyebrow flash, the head tilt and the smile. Just to review the head. The eyebrow flashes are quick up and down movement of your eyebrows.
And that lasts about one 64th of a second. And when it's a long distance signal that says I'm not a threat. So when we pass one another on the street or in the office, we have a tendency that eyebrow flash them. So just to

[00:14:00] let them know that we're not a threat and they will eyebrow flashes back and say, I'm not a threat to you.
Either. A lot of people do this every day, all the time, many times a day. And they have, sometimes they don't know they do it. Most people don't know they do this. And so if you pass somebody in the office, first time you see me go, Hey, how you doing? The other person goes, Hey, how you doing? But the second time, watch what they do when you pass, you don't have to do any kind of verbal acknowledgement, but watch when they pass your eyebrow flash one another.
And that's just a signal that says I'm not a threat guys. Do the chin thing too. You'll see that.
Hala Taha: Yeah, that's true.
Dr. Jack Schafer: They do the chin. That's a friend signal. So the second thing is your head tilt. The reason the head tilt means it's a friend signal because you expose your carotid artery and that is a life blood of your existence there, if you will.
And you're pretty much dead in a few minutes. So what you're telling that person is I'm exposing that carotid artery, because I don't fear

[00:15:00] you. So I'm not a threat. If anybody has animals or dogs, particularly as soon as you come in the house, they'll sit there and what do they do tilt their head one way or the other they'll roll over on their stomach and they need a nice belly rub.
But what they're saying basically is I'm exposing the most vulnerable part of my body because I trust you, so take those kind of go across to the animal kingdom also. And the last thing is a smile. When we smile, we release endorphins and endorphins, make us feel good about ourselves. And there's a golden rule of friendship, which says, if you want to make friends with somebody, you make them feel good about themselves.
As soon as you smile, it's very difficult for someone not to smile back. And once they smile, then you get that shot of endorphin, which says, I like you, it makes me feel good about me. So I made you feel good about you, therefore, you're going to like me.
Hala Taha: Yeah. It's so interesting. All these

[00:16:00] things that you're saying, like so many gems, I would encourage people to rewind that and listen to that back.
It's so important to, to understand these things. And the friendship formula is very interesting because I think it's actually a scientific fact that the more time you spend with someone, the more attractive you think they are. So many people they'll be in a classroom with someone and they'll start to find like their classmate attractive when if they didn't spend every day with them, they wouldn't actually think they're attractive.
So it's really cool.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Yeah. That's the key to the formula is it's just nature or psychology work for you without working too hard at making friends. And then you come across as more natural and it's more spontaneous, I think.
Hala Taha: Yeah. And then with the friendship formula, can you just dig a little deeper into the intensity portion?
Dr. Jack Schafer: Yes, it's easy to measure proximity. It's either you're there, or you're not frequency is easier to put a counter. So it's duration. You can put that on a clock when

[00:17:00] it comes to the intensity, you have to look for non-verbal behaviors. So we came up with some non-verbal behaviors that indicate intensity and the number one is extended eye gaze.
So which will gauge. So we like each other. We look into one another's eyes and that is similar to, if you do have dogs again, a dog will come up sit and they be right close to you. And they'll go stare deep into your eyes. That's the dog giving you an eye hug. And what's interesting is my daughter, when she was younger, she was the prom queen at the high school.
And so the guys would always come by the house with proximity, not a proximity. And then there's, they're frequently there. Then they spend a lot of time there, those things I'm not worried about. It's just that I'm going to date myself. Now, I'm talking about two things that don't exist anymore. They were supposed to be in the den, looking at a VHS movie, but instead, what

[00:18:00] were they doing staring into one another's eyes.
Then you know, that relationship is gained some intensity and that's one of the most powerful intensifier. So what you want to do is put the kibosh on there. I sent the young man home.
Hala Taha: Yeah, that's so funny. I love that story. So you were just talking about friends signals, your big three friends signals that you went over, are the head tilts, the eyebrow flash and the smile.
What other signals can we give to people to be more likable, more approachable? And then I might actually call out some body parts and get your input on certain body parts. Cause there are some things that I know about that I think you know about too, that I'd love to share with my listeners. So what other things can we do to be more approachable, more open?

Dr. Jack Schafer: The first thing that you can do is, and that's the extension of mutual gaze is that when I approach it, I'm gonna eyebrow flash. I'll do it slowly. So you can see our eyebrow flash I'll head tilt, I'll smile. [00:19:00] And then I'm going to look at you in the eyes, but I can't look too long because it's staring. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to.
Move my eyes, but still maintain eye contact. So your brain is saying it's not a stare because he's not staring his head is moving, but in fact, I'm intensifying that relation ship to that mutual gaze. So that one way you can do that. Another way you can engage people is have an open. Posture. In other words, don't sit there, leaning back and hands crossed and legs cross they'll tell the people that you're closed off. You don't want to do that.
Hala Taha: Let's stick on open posture for one second. I had Jordan Harbinger on the show, like I mentioned previously. And one of the things that we talked about is how to have an open posture naturally, because it's very important when you're making a first impression to not have to think about having an open posture and just have one naturally.
So he taught us about something called the doorway drill. And essentially what that is you put a post, a

[00:20:00] note on a door about eyesight level. And every time you walk through a door in your house, you then remembered it to be open walk straight up. Then over time you build that habit naturally. So do you have any other tips in terms of how to do these friends signals more naturally?
Dr. Jack Schafer: Oh, and I think you should do first is number one, you do them all the time. You just don't realize you do them. There's a lot of people come back and say, my gosh, I've been eyebrow flashing forever. And I never realized it. So the first thing you want to do is realize what you're doing and say, you know what, I just eyebrow flash, how did that feel to do a natural eyebrow flash?
And they say, okay. And they try to emulate that. And then we try and tell and a smile and you try to emulate what you feel naturally. So the first thing is to recognize that you're using these signals. Know what it feels like, and then practice using them. And then when it comes time to use it and for

[00:21:00] real, then it'll come naturally.
So I did that. When a lot of people, especially with a child, I did a lot of child molester interviews. I didn't like those people. And if I were to walk in and not. Give those friends signals, they would have picked up photo signals, which that would have made it more difficult. So I had to go in there and just naturally do that.
Hala Taha: Yeah, and what our foe signals
Dr. Jack Schafer: Foe signals are the federal brows. Eyes slich. Mouth is teeth bearing. And that's what I call the urban scowl. People like grow up in big cities, walk through the city with an urban scholar and they let the predators know that it's going to be tough to take advantage of. And one thing people forget is when they go into job interviews, it's a stressful situation, especially if it's your first job interview, your big job, you really want it.
So how do you feel anxious when you feel anxious? That's a form of fight flight, which you have a tendency to

[00:22:00] show an urban scowl. So when you walk into the job interview, you want to present a friendly face, but your body's saying, this is fearful. I need to show urban scowl. So you have to override that instinct and you've got to walk in and make sure you eyebrow flash, you head tilt.
And you smile because that will let the employer know that you're friendly and you're not a threat. So a lot of times you get that first wrong impression because it's a fearful situation and your body doesn't naturally send out friends signals when you're afraid.
Hala Taha: Yeah, that makes complete sense. And I think it's so important for people to, even though these, this is like common sense, right?
We all do these things naturally, but like you said, in situations like a job interview where we're so nervous and we're probably not thinking like, oh, I need to smile and have a head tilt and do an eyebrow flash. You're not thinking about that because you're like, oh, I need to give them this experience, this skill, this and you forget about your body language.
And it's very important because people communication is I think 70%

[00:23:00] body language or something like that. So it's very important to make sure that you learn that just as much as you learn to talk about your skills or experiences.
Dr. Jack Schafer: That's why it's very important when you do online dating I'm not against online dating.
I think it has a places. It's valuable, but we have to go from the verbal and the written very quickly to the visuable.
Hala Taha: Yeah.
Dr. Jack Schafer: So that's where we were best at judging people. The visual. So you want to get right to the visual as quickly as you can, to avoid a lot of complications. Though number one, complication is if you hear some of this voice, you have a tendency to conjure up a picture of them in your mind.
And if you see a long enough, then this picture develops, it's almost have you ever been on a telephone? And you talk to somebody routinely at a telephone, you have a picture of what they're like then their life. And they're not like their voice at all. That's what you want to avoid. When you're on internet dating, you want to make sure that you don't develop a an

[00:24:00] idealized image of that person.
And then when you do finally meet him, either Skype or in person, then. It destroys that whole image of them in that kind of shape. Like who is this person?
Hala Taha: Yeah, I think, and I think that used to be such a big problem before, like video Skyping and things like that, where it became so popular. So many people used to get catfish.
They had a whole show about it. So let's go to individual body parts. I know that lips can say a lot about how somebody is feeling. George Sr Bush had this famous quote, read my lips and literally you could read people's lips. So tell us about the different things that you can tell from somebody's lips.
Dr. Jack Schafer: That's a very important, first of all I want to talk about is a lip bite is set when you, when somebody bites their lip. And what they're trying to do is keep their mouth shut. In other words, they have something to say, but they don't want to say it for whatever reason. I use that in my classroom quite a bit, because if I'm lecturing, I see a student biting their lip,

[00:25:00] then I'll say, oh, you've got something to say.
And so how did you know? Oh you told me. by, by what you did with your lips. The second one is more intense and that is the lip compression says, I don't want to say something so badly. How can I actually clamp my lips shut? So I don't say it or would see that you say, ah, you've got something to pay.
We'll pray to say to do one. No, you can feel that. Meaning alone, I think one of the most important lip signals is the lip purse. I'm exaggerate it right now. And that's our movement of your lips. It's not, it's great, but I just want to exaggerate it now, what that means is the person you're talking to has already formed a
negative sentence in opposition to what you just said. So if I said and I often say this to my wife, she'll say it's your turn to pick the movie, right? That we go see, which means I've already picked our movie. You just got to figure out which one it

[00:26:00] is. So then I'll go through a litany of movies and I'll see lip purses, which means what?
We're not seeing that movie. So when we see one movie, she's already preselected, of course, for me to choose, then you don't see the lip purse. If you ask your boss for something and they lip purse we have a problem. The key to this is like when I was in the FBI, I used to have good resources to run the operations that I ran.
And some of the operations, you look at cost benefits. So I'm explaining this to my supervisor and I see right when we get to the money part. He lip purse, so the key is you want to get that person to change their mind. Inside their mind before they have a chance to articulate it, because if they articulate no, and there's a psychological principle of consistency when we say no, we want to be consistent with no, and it's very difficult to change our mind.
So I get to the

[00:27:00] topic of money. And I see the lip purse. I go boss, I'll bet you're thinking this was way too much money, but let me explain the cost benefit. Let me explain this. Let me explain that why it is worth doing this operation. So I'm getting him to change his mind inside his mind before you had a chance to come out and say no
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That's excellent. Excellent advice. I just want to replay that for my listeners. He's saying, if you see somebody start to purse their lips, when you're giving something like numbers. So this is great for sales people, or if you're trying to get a promotion or whatever it is, you want to change their mind before they actually say it.
Because once they say it, they set it in stone in their head and they want, they don't want to go back on their word. So very important thing to learn. Let's move on to the next body part. They say eyes are the windows of the soul. I had a guest Chase Hughes who came on episode number eight and he talks about blink rate.
That's something, my, my listeners are familiar with the faster you blink, the less interested

[00:29:00] someone is in what you're saying, the slower they blink, the more interested they are in what you're saying. So do you have anything else in terms of the eyes and what we should look for in terms of if somebody is liking us or not
Dr. Jack Schafer: The first thing you have to do with all non-verbal
Q's is to get a baseline. So I'm going to ask you a few questions that you have no reason to lie to me about. And then I'm going to count your eye blink rate. And then I'm going to ask you a hot button question. And then your eye blink rate is going to increase, your eye blink rate increases with anxiety because when you fear getting caught in a lie that triggers the fight flight response, and then what happens is the water that's in your body has shunted to your outside of your body and the form of sweat to help you cool down and survive.
So what happens that leaves less water for your eyes to be lubricated. So what you have to do is increase that in order to keep your eyeballs lubricated. So that's kind of anxiety.

[00:30:00] When you want to do is look for increased eye blink rate would be anxiety, or it could be that you meet somebody for the first time. You're a little anxious.
Hala Taha: Yeah. And so you should switch the topic. Then if you see that the fast eye blinking, is that the strategy? What's your strategy then?
Dr. Jack Schafer: I wouldn't move more than into the non verbal to the verbal aspect of this is once you know that eye blink rate they're anxious about something.
We don't know if it's because they're excited to see you. They don't want you to see you at all. They're threatened by you. We don't know that. So what you want to do is use what I refer to as empathic statement, empathic things are probably the most powerful report building tool that you can have.
And that is once you take that person, what they said, how they feel, or their physical appearance, and you use similar language and you just mirror it back to them. So on the elevator, I often see students that are very happy. So I, if they're very happy, I stay. Hello, sure you must have had a good day or you must be having a good day.

They will come back and say, yes, I just passed the test that I studied hard for, empathic statement. So you studied hard and it paid off. What you're doing basically is you're making it all about them. And what you have to do is the basic construction of a empathic statement will be so you and the reason I like people to say, so you initially is because it makes it about the other person, because it says, I know how you feel because I used to study hard and pass tests.
They don't care how, what you did anything about you. All they care is about them, we commit the conversation all about them. Then they're going to like you because they feel good because you're listening. Here's the secret of that. If every time you're with me, you feel good about yourself. The probability is you're going to want to see me again.
And additionally, the probability is I won't even have to invite you to come see me again. You're going to find an excuse to come see me again. You get that same good feeling.
Hala Taha: Yes, because again, his golden rule of

[00:32:00] friendship is sorry. What's the golden rule of friendship? It's something on my mind.
Dr. Jack Schafer: If you want people to like you, you make them feel good about themselves.
Hala Taha: Exactly. And that's what empathic statements do. I actually use empathic statements. Now I try to practice when I'm in the elevator at work, because that's what I read in your book. You can literally just practice in the elevator. If somebody is just smiling, you could just say, so you look like you're having a great day, but you don't actually want to say, I believe you're having a great day.
Why is that? Why don't you actually want to tell them directly what you think they are feeling?
Dr. Jack Schafer: Because we all think the world revolves around us and everything has to be about us. So if we extend ourselves and make it about the other person. Then that person says, wow, somebody paid attention to me.
Somebody understands, somebody observed something about me and made a comment. Therefore, I like that person because they're finally, somebody's paying attention to me and my world.

[00:33:00] So that's the thing is you're getting out of your world and you're projecting empathy into another person's world, which makes people feel good.
And let them know what's supposed to do in life is make people feel good about themselves. And I like to go through life. And every time I meet somebody, I like to make them think that was a person worth meeting, because I just feel that much better for having that person. And that's my goal now.
Hala Taha: Yeah. That's a very good goal.
And I read a quote, I think it was somebody who is reviewing one of your books and they said approach it. Not that you want to make people like you, but that you want to be a more likable person. So it's it's about you. It's not about forcing other people to like you, it's just about you being a better, more likable person.
That's more approachable, more empathetic stuff like that. So there's nothing negative or manipulative about any of this?
Dr. Jack Schafer: No, these are all things we do naturally. And because of the tech world and the younger folks know this, you're always on your iPhones

[00:34:00] or your whatever thumb talk and you're doing, then you're not looking at people.
You're not exchanging conversation with people. So then it becomes very difficult for you to. To communicate with people. So all we're doing is giving you a little ketchup course on how do you become, how do you present yourself as though somebody should like you, it's not manipulating. It's, you're taking steps that mostly in my generation, we learned that because we didn't have all the technology we had to actually go out to
across the street and get our friend and talk to them. So that's the difference between today's world and the world I grew up then.
Hala Taha: Yeah. We have to try a little harder to learn body language because we don't get as much practice. We're always online, we're always chatting, we're always texting. We just don't get enough practice.
So you've got to read the books. You've got to listen to people like Dr. Jack Schafer. I would highly recommend his book, the like switch. Honestly, I've read it 10 times. It's an amazing book. Okay. So

[00:35:00] let's move on to another real world example. Many of the listeners on young and profiting podcasts, they go to a million networking events, right?
And sometimes we go to these parties and we're totally by ourselves. We don't have a plus one with us. How can we approach these situations? How can we tell, who is open to make a new friend? What are the signals that other people give us to tell them that they're open for a conversation or to be a new friend?
Dr. Jack Schafer: You know, a really simple way to do this. Look at people's feet. When we go into a large crowd and I've, I was always asked to go to a lot of embassy parties and talk to people. And then of course my work. And how do you mingle with somebody to get information from them? I discovered if you look at their feet, that's an indication of whether they're accepting additional people into their circle.
So if the feet, if you have two people, when their feet are faced toe to toe, that's a closed circle, they do not want to talk with you. But if the two people had their feet outward and that leaves a little

[00:36:00] hole there in front of them, so they're slamming their feet in a V kind of a formation. That means it's okay.
And they're accepting new people. So the rule of thumb is if there's a place to put your feet, it's okay to meet.
Hala Taha: I love that. That's so good. And then something else that I wanted to share with our listeners is the curiosity hook. So sometimes when someone's shy a good trick, if you're a shy person is to wear something that's like a little bit outlandish to a party, like maybe a cool hat and use that as a way for people to engage in a conversation with you, they call that a curiosity hook.
Could you explain that a little bit more? It gives some words impulse
Dr. Jack Schafer: Curiosity is is very powerful yet people to talk to you. So if you're a shy person and you want to make friends, the first thing you do is you can look at their feet. There's three people there, and there's an opening to put your feet. You step in, you listen for a little bit, and then they'll look at you.
And if you're wearing something that's unique,

[00:37:00] it can be a unique piece of jewelry. It could be a sports level of a team. It can be some unique accessory that you have and people say, oh, that's interesting. So now, what are they doing? They're what, they're approaching you actually. So you don't have to make that initial step.
They're coming to you and asking about the unique thing that you have on you, because curiosity is pretty powerful, so powerful way to get people to talk to you without you having to actually extend yourself. Extrovert, we have a big problem with this staff because they're always talking, but a lot of times introverts, or if you're leery about meeting somebody new, it's a perfect way to introduce yourself.
Hala Taha: Yeah. So I have a question from the audience. I thought was really interesting. Kenneth Pierre says, can you ask him, what does a person's walk, tell you about their personality?
Dr. Jack Schafer: The way we look at it in the intelligence world. There's several things we look

[00:38:00] at. If people walk closer to the curb, they're more of a risk taker.
If people walk closer to the building side of the street, Then they're less of a risk taker, people that walk ahead of the crowd. So you'll have a group of people together, the person that's in the lead is going to be naturally set the pace, and they're going to be the leader of that group. And you also have, the swagger and all those other things that young folks do, the tria illustrate that they're, they're unique and they're different.
Hala Taha: Yeah, that's really good. I think that people often tell me that when I'm walking around, I have a bitch face is what they say, but that's probably the urban scowl that you were talking about cause I live in New York city.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Absolutely, and I tell you what curious is, my wife was in the suburbs and I grew up in the city. So I walked around with my urban scowl all the time. And then when I go out

[00:39:00] and see her friends would staple white Jack is mean, and I don't know how you like Camille snap. I don't have afraid to talk to them because it bite my head off or yelling.
And she's no, he's a nice guy. And then when she mentioned it to me, I thought about it. And I said, yeah, I'm walking around with my city face on, in the suburbs where it's not necessary to walk around with the urban scowl. So that's really important for you now, when you want to give the right impression, you can consciously now do that without causing any concerns.
Hala Taha: Yeah. So just remember I'm not on the street, I'm not trying to get men not to look at me or talk to me like when I'm in a work environment or a social environment, I've got to switch my mindset to consciously say I'm in a safe place. I want to be open, warm, friendly. And speaking of that, Laila had a question who's in the chat.
And she's wondering if changing your body language, like actually changes your mindset in any way.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Oh yes, it does. Absolutely because our minds pay attention to our bodies.

[00:40:00] So one quick thing is if you're feeling a little depressed, if you just fake a smile, you get a little shot of endorphin. It'll make you feel better about you.
And even though you're faking the smile, you still get that little shot of endorphins. So our bodies due pay attention to what we do, and if we're closed off, our minds are going to be closed off. It's when aggressive stands we're going to be aggressive. Oh, it's nice to have all these tools in your, like your friendship toolbox your relationship tool box, because then now you can choose what image you want to portray in what situation, if I'm walking down the street in New York and I don't want people bothering me now, you can intentionally put out the urban scowl.
Then you can go inside your office and say, okay. Is it, safe place for me to open up a little bit. So now you can intentionally make that transition. And a lot of people can't do that without understanding why and how they do the things they do as humans.
Hala Taha: Yeah. I walk into my building at work, I just

[00:41:00] got off the subway.
I'm definitely have my urban scowl on, I don't want anybody talking to me. And then I walk into the building and what is the bodyguard say, can't you give a smile and I'm like, oh, just walking into work, you jerk. But I've got to be more conscious, you know.
Dr. Jack Schafer: People picking up on that. You see how people do notice your appearance and it has a big impact on other people.
So you need to learn these skills and you know what the beauty of this is, I'm not teaching you anything you don't already know. The book shows you how to recognize what you already do and then to use it. In the appropriate situation.
Hala Taha: Yeah. So let's move on to dating. Some of you have a whole chapter in your book about the laws of attraction.
How can we get somebody to like us more in a romantic way? What are the ways to do it? You were mentioning endorphins. I know that has a lot to do with it. Could you just talk to us about your different laws of attraction? I'd love to hear about that.

Dr. Jack Schafer: Well, one one of my favorite laws is the laws of misattribution.
In other words, when we are in a kind of a fearful situation or a situation that maybe it's a slight impression of danger or some types that we tend to associate that closeness with other people. So that will encourage closest because we want to get together. It's the like the band of brothers and that the cops are more close because of the danger they face.
So what you want to do is emulate that is, I think on a first day you should take somebody to a scary movie because that is going to. Set up that kind of situation. They did some research and they found out that couples that went into scary moves, came out, holding hands more, and they were closer because of the sharing that trauma together.
Hala Taha: That's so interesting. I could totally relate. I know that every time me and my boyfriend watch a scary movie together, like ends up being like a more

[00:43:00] romantic night is that I can explain it.
Dr. Jack Schafer: But it also works in the other way. And that is when you run or exercise, you get the shot of endorphins. It's the runner's high.
So you don't, you can't attribute that to any one specific thing. So what you do is the person that's there gets the benefit of having that good feeling. So if you have urge of interest happens to be a runner, you can either run. In the same area, they are for proximity and frequency of duration, or you can just be with them at the end of their run, and they're going to feel good about themselves.
And they're not going to know they're not going to figure out the run, maybe feel good. They're going to misattribute that good feeling to you, and then that'll make them feel better about you. So those are different ways you can.
Hala Taha: Yeah. The last one is like a little bit unethical, right? If you're trying to start a long-term relationship with someone and you show up every time they're done with the gym.
So they're thinking like,

[00:44:00] oh, I think I liked them, but really they're just high off their workout. What's your counter argument to that? Is that how you should build a long-term relationship?
Dr. Jack Schafer: Well, in that, that is just one way to initiate the relationship. You gotta remember all these techniques are that we've been talking about or for that initial meeting, right?
After that initial meeting. That's when you look for you, make empathic statements, you look for common ground and common ground is another very powerful way to get people to like you. Because if it's like you me, saying same. If we share the same things, we have a tendency to like one another. So I'm always looking for common ground and there's three ways to get common ground there's contemporaneous, which means you're going to Western Illinois university.
I'm a student at Western Illinois university. Therefore we have something we share in common. You're from New York. I'm from New York. Okay.

[00:45:00] Now it's the second way to do that is temporal you're from New York. And I've been to New York several times. So I can say over time, what do we have? We share that same experience.
The other one is contemporaneous you're from New York. My daughter's from New York. She lives in New York. So we have common ground through my daughter and that's called vicarious common ground. So we share common ground through a third person. So there's different ways. You can look at common ground and once you have common ground, people have a tendency to like you because they like people who share the same things that they do.
Hala Taha: Yeah. People like people who are similar to them and familiar to them. That's a really important thing. It's always super helpful when you meet somebody new to try to figure out like, what do we have in common? Because it just bonds you together more. So once we're in a relationship, let's say we do all these tactics.
We, we're dating

[00:46:00] somebody new. We get into a relationship. What's the inevitable that happens like a bad argument. I know you have excellent tips when it comes to diffusing arguments, reducing friction in relationships. Can you share some of that with us?
Dr. Jack Schafer: Yeah. The first thing you want to do is you want to provide that person that may be mildly angry with you.
You want to provide them with an explanation when we're angry, our world is not in sync. Something's not wrong. We can't make sense of our world. So if I do something in my purse, adventurous is upset. It's because something I did doesn't fit with her image of me or image of the world or image how our relationships could be.
So she's out of sync. So then you become frustrated. Frustration is just a form of anger, a mild form of anger. So what I'm going to do is say, oh, the reason I did this is because, and then you explain the reason and then the other person goes, oh, I get it. That's why you did it. Now, my world is back in what sync

[00:47:00] and I understand my world.
And I do that with when I arrest somebody. Why are you putting the cuffs on me while putting the cuffs on you? Because of these reasons. Oh, okay. Officer's safety and this policy. Oh, okay. That makes sense. So they're no longer angry. So what answers is some of these a little more than mildly angry.
This is where we have problems. And there's a very simple solution. That's called the anger cycle. So when we're angry, we going to the fight flight. It triggers the fight flight mechanism. And what that does is it cuts off our logical processing. We are, when we're angry, we are not logically processing information.
So the last thing you want to do is number one, try to rationalize with an angry person. It's kind of thing you don't want to do is put fuel on the fire. But what you do want to do is allow that person to vent. So here's what initially happens. They're angry. And then what you want to do is don't be an

[00:48:00] angry at first, you get Ugh, I'm done with my initial venting.
I'm done saying I'm angry. So you see that little relaxation and bright, then you want to ensure that empathic statement. So for example, if I'm TDY and my wife has three kids at home and I'm TDY or temporary duty for two weeks, and she's pulling double duty and I come home, I say, hi, honey, I'm home.
I'm expecting a warm hug and a kiss. That's not what happens. She goes, while you were off partying and you're off having nice dinners and everything, I'm at home pulling double duty. So she's angry. So what I'll say is, oh, so you were overwhelmed with all the work you had to do when I was gone. So that's just an empathic statement explaining what her situation is.
So you think things will calm down then, right? No, they won't. She says he finally gets it. It happens that there's a tendency to be more venting. And by the way, when you were gone, those two weeks, I missed those Wednesday

[00:49:00] night outings with my girlfriends. To talk about normal stuff, get away from the kids while you babysit.
And I wasn't able to do that. So little relaxation, another empathic statement. So you miss going out with your friends, she goes yeah, I miss going out with my friends, you get more venting, but what you're doing is allowing that person to vent and vent without what fueling that fire, throwing fuel on that fire.
And then if you come over to the top where they're just done, that's where you are inserting what I call presumptive statement or presumptive course of action, which that person is difficulty refusing.
Hala Taha: Okay.
Dr. Jack Schafer: So, in my situation, I would say I'll gather the kids up, take them over to mom's house. You take a bubble bath or something.
And then when I get back, we'll go out and have a nice dinner because you deserve it. How are you going to say no?
Hala Taha: So proposing like a solution like that?
Dr. Jack Schafer: It's the solution that they have a very difficult time saying no to. I won't know these taken, wait a

[00:50:00] minute. You're not going to get off that easy. So when they come back into the anger cycle, say, oh, so you, you think you deserve a little bit more compensation for what you went through over the last two weeks?
Yes I do. And then how about a day at the spot? I'll take care of the kid.
Hala Taha: So essentially to boil it down for everyone, you want to try to get people to vent using empathetic statements, and then you're going to propose a solution that they cannot refuse.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Or have a very difficult time refusing.
Hala Taha: Or having a very difficult time refusing. Yeah. That sounds like really great advice.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Yeah, it's interesting because several of my students came back and said, they say a lot of relationships that way using the anger cycle is that it really works. Yeah, it does work.
Hala Taha: Yeah. I can't wait to try that out at home because I think I could avoid a lot of conflicts if I employ those strategies.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Yeah it's like somebody came into my office once my, one of my coworkers, I was working in a big case in the FBI and she came in and

[00:51:00] she's very upset with me calling me names. She decorated her expressions quite a bit. And instead of me defending myself, I said an empathic statements, so you're angry at something because I did something wrong.
Yeah. And she gets very angry, more venting. And I say, oh, so because I wasn't around to give you a briefing, so you could write the paperwork and send it to headquarters. And that makes you look bad. She goes, yeah, that's exactly what you're doing. You're doing stuff and not telling me. And I'm in charge of the paperwork.
So we get over the hump. She's done. I go, then why don't we meet every day at five o'clock in the afternoon? And I'll brief you. She says, okay. And that was the end of that.
Hala Taha: Wow.
Dr. Jack Schafer: That could have been a very dangerous. Situation. If I was to go on the defensive.
Hala Taha: Exactly. So it's you don't want to go on the defensive and start giving I did this because of that.
And I did this because of that. You just want to listen, and then propose a solution that they can't refuse. That's an excellent way to

[00:52:00] diffuse arguments. I'm definitely going to try to put that into play. We have a really interesting question from Christopher Nesbitt. He says, can you ask about the frequency and speed of movements and what it says about someone?
Dr. Jack Schafer: Well, when, like, when people go quickly up the stairs, take two steps.
Hala Taha: I guess it's just, he's just asking about the speed of any movement. Maybe it's like shaking her hands too much. Shaking her leg.
Dr. Jack Schafer: So many things I could go into there. Yeah. Cause what if you're naturally a nervous person.
But if you have a metabolism or if you have, you have
Hala Taha: Yeah. So it's not cut and dry. Like some of the other stuff.
Dr. Jack Schafer: No, when we ties. If you see somebody walking up the stairs, two steps at a time, they're very energetic, they're they want to engage.
Hala Taha: Yeah. Kristen Sherias on this, it's on this topic she was asking is body language universal because you just said there could be a lot of things at play with that.
So is body language universal or does it depend on someone's personality?
Dr. Jack Schafer: Most

[00:53:00] body language with the exception of the handshake is universal. I've done a lot of research in this area and I believe it's universal. I worked with a lot of people in, from all over the world. Everybody eyebrow flashes, everybody head tilts.
Everybody smiles. Everybody thinks they're the center of the universe. And if you want, like you do enough, your head nodding. If you want to increase, people's output of speech, you just head nod. So if you're shy on a first date and you just want that other person to keep talking, so what are you going to do?
You just head nod because we weren't a turn-taking society. That means that head nod thing as a signal that says, keep talking, it's your turn.
Hala Taha: Yeah. So my last question we're running up on time. So I want to end the episode with some actionable advice. The first question I'm going to ask you is how do you get people to do more of what you want?
So to get them to do

[00:54:00] favors for you? I think the love rubber there's some law that yes. Yes. I would love for you to talk to us about that. Cause I think this is something that our listeners can take away right away and put an and put into action.
Dr. Jack Schafer: One of the things you can do is when we do things for other people, you say the other person says, yeah, don't worry about it.
You're welcome. Don't worry about it. What you want to say is I know you do the same for me. So if you do a favor for me and I'll tell you, instead of saying, thank you, I would say, I know you do the same for me. And that's up that reciprocity because people want to reciprocate. In like kind or like manner of what people did for us.
So one way we can do it. Another way we can do it is ask people to do us a favor because how do you feel when you do a favor for somebody? Yes, feel good. Don't you? And then that goes back to the golden rule of friendship. If I can make you

[00:55:00] feel good about you, you're going to like me. So I'm going to ask you to do me a favor.
And if all I have to say, can you do me a favor? And that sets up your willingness or predisposes you to do it. And here's the irony. I think we can end with this. The irony of all this is, if you like somebody you're going to do anything you can for them. That's just the weekend wednesday. It's ironic, isn't it?
I put you ahead of all other people. I make you the focus of my attention. Everything's about you, but in the end you're going to do me favors or things just because you like me.
Hala Taha: Yeah. And people like to help other people. So if you ask them, if you say favor, they'll want to do it more, which is so you wouldn't think that but that's the truth.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Yeah. Let's, that came from Ben Franklin, by the way, it's called Ben Franklin effect.
Hala Taha: Yeah, yeah I remember that. So that actually made me think of a personal story. I want to share with my listeners about how I use this

[00:56:00] law. And essentially what I like to do is I'd like to introduce people to each other. So I like to take somebody that I know and give them an opportunity with somebody else that I know.
So a good example is what I did for Jack. I introduced him to Jordan Harbinger because I wanted him to get that exposure on that show. And I had that connection and Jordan could mutually benefit because he's got an expert like Jack on a show. So I put those connections together now, hopefully it already happened.
Jordan started like sponsoring my podcast right after that. So it's like people just like to do favors for people who do favors for them and the cycle just keeps continuing. So I would definitely recommend one of the things that you can do is to expand your network that way, by introducing your connections, that don't know each other to each other and give them different opportunities.
And then people will be more likely to introduce you to their friends or give you opportunities because you did it for them. And they want to return the favor.
Dr. Jack Schafer: What else have I done?
Hala Taha: So Jack, one of the last questions that I ask everybody on this show is

[00:57:00] what is your secret to profiting in life? And this doesn't have to be financial, it could be professionally. What is your secret to profiting in life?
Dr. Jack Schafer: If you find something you like pursue it with fervor and passion, because it will pan out for you.
And then it goes back to like when I was eight years old, I always wanted to be a writer. And that's one thing that I actually wrote down on a piece of paper. And I pursued that with fervor and passion. And it was quite a while before I became even at limited success. So without that fervor and passion, it would've never happened.
And if you do something that you enjoy. You're not going to work a day in your life.
Hala Taha: Yeah, it's so true.
Dr. Jack Schafer: And you're going to have good relationships.
Hala Taha: Totally. That's like me and my podcast, every time I do work on it, it's just fun. It doesn't even feel like work because it's my true passion. So you have a book coming out in October. You have a new book. I can't wait. I

[00:58:00] had no idea. You told me before the show about this new book, tell us about your new book coming out and what are the key things you're going to cover in that book?
And we're definitely have you back on the show. You'll be my first guest to come on three times.
Dr. Jack Schafer: The new book's called the truth detector. In other words, we want to get to the truth before people have a chance to lie. And that's the technique we use in the intelligence world and law enforcement called elicitation.
We get people to reveal secret information about themselves without them knowing they're even revealing secret information. So when people lie, they have a tendency to. To do all those things that people cover their lives with. We're going to get at the truth before they have a chance to lie.
I'll give you one quick example. My wife and I were looking at houses to buy and we found one house, but a couple we asked a couple of neighbors and they said, oh, it might have a high water level. And the place is due to flooding. So we went down into the basement and looked around and it's all remodeled.
So we couldn't

[00:59:00] tell whether it was flood damaged or not. So I made the simple statement. Gee, they should fixed the place up since the flood. And the realtor says oh yeah, they did. And I thought, ah, it does flood. Now, if I was to ask him directly this flood, I doubt whether he would have given me a direct answer.
Hala Taha: That's such a great piece of insight. I cannot wait until this book comes out. Like I said, previously, I've listened to the like switch so many times I would highly encourage you guys. You can find it everywhere to get that book. It's one of the most transformational books I've ever read in my life. And, Jack, we appreciate you so much.
If you want to get some of the basics in terms of likability. And first impressions, check out my first episode with Jack. It's my first episode, but it's actually an awesome piece of content. I'm sure everybody will enjoy it. So go back and listen to that one. And like I said, make sure you go get his book up with the link in our show notes.
Dr. Jack Schafer: And the other place they can get tidbits of information is I blog for

[01:00:00] psychology today
magazine. So if they just put psychology today and my name, then my blog will pop up. I have a lot of things we talked about today, or little blogs and in the, on that side.
Hala Taha: Awesome. I'll also put that link in the show notes. Thank you so much, Jack. I really enjoyed this chat and I hope you have a great day.
Thanks so much for everything that you've done for me. I really appreciate it. I really do.
Dr. Jack Schafer: Thanks for the kind words.
Hala Taha: Thank you.
Thanks for listening to young and profiting podcast. If you want to continue learning with Dr. Jack Schafer, head back to episode one had to nail your first impressions and become a more likable person.
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