#73: Do What You Love with Cathy Heller
#73: Do What You Love with Cathy Heller
Don’t keep your day job!
Life is short, and we spend so much of it working. So, it only makes sense to do what you love!
Today, Hala chats with Cathy Heller, host of Apple’s #1 podcast, Don’t Keep Your Day Job, which has over 9 million downloads and features conversations with creative entrepreneurs like actress Jenna Fischer, Seth Godin and more. Cathy is also a business and life coach who helps clients get paid for what they love to do through group programs, courses and retreats.
In this episode, we’ll cover why a lack of resources is not an excuse to abandon your dreams, why radical empathy is the core of every business and how Cathy manages to make millions working only 4 hours per day.
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#73: Do What You Love with Cathy Heller
[00:00:00] Hala Taha:
[00:00:00] Hey guys, it's Hala. If you've listened to the past couple of episodes, you may have realized that I have a new tradition at the start of each show, where he gave a big shout out to the awesome reviews we're getting on Apple Podcast. This week. I want to share a five-star review from Joel Corpus, "Really awesome interview.
All I can say is whoa and amazing. First of all, I love how you managed your entire program, including how you smoothly transitioned from one topic to another concisely and efficiently. Awesome. My compliments to you and your team, you did an outstanding job in putting this together. You created value for me and the episode really resonated with me. I can't wait to hear the next one."
Thanks for the kind words. And I totally agree that the whole YAP team deserves kudos for creating such an amazing podcast. Thanks so much guys. Joel, your wait is over. Let's get onto the next episode and if you're out there listening, I'd love for you to leave a review on Apple or your favorite platform to let us know what you think about the show. Your
[00:01:00] listening to YAP, Young And Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit.
Welcome to the show. I'm your host Hala Taha and on Young And Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life. No matter your age, profession, or industry, there's no fluff on this podcast.
And that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests, by doing the proper research and asking the right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of ex FBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and best-selling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhancing productivity, how to gain influence, the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button because you'll love it here at Young And Profiting Podcast. Today on the show, we're chatting with Cathy Heller, host
[00:02:00] of Apple's number one podcast,
Don't Keep Your Day Job, which has over 9 million downloads and features conversations with creative entrepreneurs like actress, Jenna Fischer, Seth Godin, and more. Cathy is also a business and life coach who helps clients get paid for what they love to do through group programs, courses, and retreats. In this episode, we'll cover why a lack of resources is not an excuse to abandon your dream.
Why radical empathy is at the core of every business and how Cathy manages to make millions working only four hours per day. Hey Cathy, welcome to Young And Profiting Podcast. How are you?
Cathy Heller: [00:02:38] I'm good. Nice to meet you.
[00:02:40] Nice to meet you too. I'm so excited to kick off this conversation. I think you've a really cool background and we're going to get so much insights from you.
I wanted to start off with your background, get some insight into what it was like for you growing up. You're very successful. You have a top podcast on Apple,
[00:03:00] you've launched courses and workshops that generate millions of dollars. Every time you put one out, you're a mom of three wonderful daughters.
And to the outside eye, it might have seemed like a really straight shot path to success. But your success actually came a little bit later and your past didn't always shine so bright. Like when you were a teenager. One might not have thought that you would have achieved so much success later on in life. So help us understand what it was like for you as a child, as a teenager, and some of the lessons you learned from growing up.
[00:03:30] Yeah, sure. I think that the truth is that's how it is for everybody. I think we come into this world as a soul. That's got to learn a lot of lessons and it must be true because I don't know any person who has a linear life. There's actually no straight lines in nature, either.
Like everything in nature has like edges and curves and twists and turns and that's how our lives are. And I do think that it's like an illusion because you look at people on social media and all is like a highlight reel and you forget this person's
[00:04:00] heart was broken. This person got rejected.
Something happened. I think everyone who's listening by the age of 10 or 11 or 12. You went through something traumatic, someone passed away, your parents got divorced. You had some kind of injury, like life is intense and complicated. So of course it's like that for me. So I came out to LA 16 years ago with the dream of being a rock star.
I wanted to get a record deal. And that was my escape. Growing up, my parents had a really scary marriage wound up getting divorced. My mom was suicidal. Most of my life, we had very little money, lived in a little apartment. My dad was off in his own new life, new marriages, plural. And it was a very depressing, scary time.
And I wanted so much to be heard and seen. And I had a voice I could sing and I thought then that's it. And people will see me and people will hear me. And without anything, just like literally a dream. I came out to LA, which is like a very
[00:05:00] romanticized story from a movie. And I wrote mediocre songs.
And the songs got a little better and a little better. And I was really determined and I sent lots of emails and had lots of meetings and I was very scared and did things anyway and walked into rooms that I wasn't afraid to be in until I was offered a record deal. And I was signed to Interscope and I was sitting with Lady Gaga.
She was recording Paparazzi and I was just signed and they were asking me what I wanted from Starbucks. And I couldn't believe that soon I would have this record out and I would be like Sheryl Crow and it felt so amazing.
[00:05:37] That's awesome. Yeah. As everybody who's listening, they know that I do plenty of research.
So I know about that story. And I can't wait to talk about what happened after you got dropped from the record label and how you felt and how you got out of it. And we actually have something in common. So I started off wanting to be a singer. I recorded a whole album. My boyfriend is a famous music producer and he's my longtime boyfriend of 10 years.
His name is Harry
[00:06:00] Fraud. And I actually worked at a radio station, hot 97. And that was my first job in college. And I actually took that job so I could pitch my music to the DJs. And then I fell in love with radio. And hence why I have a podcast 10 years later, but you obviously got a wow.
[00:06:15] I love that story.
[00:06:17] I feel like I've lived 10 lives, honestly.
So I feel like we have a lot of in common there, but you got a lot further. You actually went and got a record deal. I never had anything like that. I just was recording and never really put anything out officially. Talk to us about when you found out that they were dropping you from the label. And at that point, from my understanding, you were basically told from the people who loved you, that you needed to get a real job and you needed to get stable.
And how did that feel? And what did you do to sustain yourself after that?
[00:06:47] Yeah, I was driving in the car, which is where you spend most of your time in LA. And Ron Fair was my producer, Ron Fair. Most people know him now from producing Christina and Pussycat Dolls. And he called me and he was like, are you driving?
I'm like, yeah. He's can
[00:07:00] you call me when you get home? And I'm like, I'll just pull over. And of course he told me, Jimmy Iovine loves you. Everybody loves you, but we're not absolutely certain, we're going to sell 50,000 copies of this record in the first day. And we can't take a chance and I know you'll be successful.
There's something about you. And I'm like yeah. He's no, you're going to be successful. But this might not be like the path for you. I'm like, great. That's what I want to hear. So yeah, everybody said to me like grow up this is reality. Like nothing's going to happen for you.
You're going to be an adult. And being an adult means being practical and being miserable. So get a job, get health insurance. And like when you're on a Sunday afternoon, you can do something you like when you're retired, you can do something you like. But not with your life. And I was like, that's so depressing. No wonder my mom's depressed.
No wonder my parents were miserable. This is what being an adult is like, everyone just convinces you that you have to be unhappy. So I was like, great, I'll go get job. So I got a job at a nonprofit, cause I was like, I'll do something nice for the world. It was the most dysfunctional place I'd ever worked. That I got a job in interior design firm.
Cause I was like I'm
[00:08:00] really creative. So like maybe I want to be around creative things. No, but you needed to do math. And I didn't like it. It wasn't really what I'm good at. Then I got a job in a casting office. I worked on the ghost whisperer pilot with Jennifer Love Hewitt and I hated it. I was like, everyone is so superficial.
Not her. She was really sweet, but like the casting world was nitpicky. And even the ways that the assistants wore their clothes to work, it was like, what are you a fashion designer? Like you have to be the cool kids in high school. Everyone was so insecure. I was like, what am I doing here? Then my friend said, no, you're doing it all wrong.
If you're not going to do what you love, you go make money. And I'm like, great. How do I make money? She's you work in finance or real estate. I'm like I'm not good at math. So I'll go work in real estate. So I get a job in commercial real estate because they're like, no, you don't sell houses.
You sell multi million dollar shopping centers. And I'm like, great. Cause I hate any, I don't want any of it anyway. So like fine, I'll sell a $200 million shopping center. So I go to work for these guys in Brentwood who were
[00:09:00] like total frat guys, like they drive their Porsche Cayenne, they wear their pressures and I'm blowing out my hair and I'm wearing high heels and pantsuits and I'm out.
I'm actually good at it because I realize in that job, what you have to do is just talk to people and have a good personality. And you're talking to people with lots of money. These are not people who you have to convince. They're all like, oh, I need to diversify my portfolio. Sure. I'll buy that 200.
It's ridiculous. So I was actually pretty good at it. And two years into it, of course I wasn't making millions, but I was making a couple hundred grand and I was being told by my friends, you are crushing it. I was driving a white two-door Mercedes Coupe. I ate any sushi I wanted, I had the cutest
anthropology couch. Like
I was like crushing.
[00:09:50] You're only like 25, 20,
[00:09:51] 26. Yeah. And I looked in the mirror one day and I did not recognize myself. And I just started bawling my
[00:10:00] eyes out. And I said, I'm going to go into work today and I'm going to quit because I didn't move out to LA for any of that. And I've come to realize that the greatest regret of the dying is I didn't live life on my terms.
That is the number one thing that people say, when they're dying, I didn't live. And I was like, that is not worth it. No amount of money, no amount of anything. And for my friend group at the time making $198,000 was a lot of money for a 26 year old. And here I was being super smart. I quit my job.
[00:10:31] Yeah. That
reminds me of, I was listening to you have an interview and you were talking about how your mom being suicidal was all about her.
Like not being in alignment with herself. Can you talk to us about like how that you weren't in alignment because you were at that job and.
[00:10:46] I heard my friend, Amber Ray say the same thing that she said. People are dying with their gifts inside of them. And I felt like my mom, that was her deepest pain.
She is talented. She is empathetic. She has depth.
[00:11:00] And she's sitting on the couch, watching the news. Like she knows there's something else she's supposed to do. And a rabbi friend of mine said to me, the opposite of depression is not happiness. The opposite of depression is a sense of purpose. And I said, that's so true.
Like it's not the car and the sushi and the, this it's the, I wake up every day and I put my mark in the world and I feel like I'm doing something. And if you don't feel that it doesn't matter what size your house is. It doesn't matter. I quit my job and here was the problem. I had no path and this is what I want your listeners to hear me say, I believe that we think often it's all or nothing.
It's Beyonce or bust. There's nothing in between. I had no clue what else was there? It was either you get to be Sheryl Crow, Taylor swift, or you're not in music. So I did something really unique. I did something I'd never done before. And I asked a new question.
[00:12:00] Is there any other way I can be in music without being a rock star?
And I had never asked that question. So I had never found another answer. So to me, it was like, you get the record. So I start researching and within 10 minutes on Google, I start to see different ways people are making a living in music. And one of the biggest things was called licensing your songs to film and TV.
And for those of you who are looking at this on a video screen, which I hope you're not, cause I just got out of the shower and I have three kids running around. I didn't do it for naked, but these are articles from billboard variety, music connection. I was on the cover of the USA Today music section, why? I started licensing my music, but let's go back.
I didn't know what that meant. I read an article about snow patrol, Regina Spektor, Ingrid Michaelson, Christina Perry, who had their songs in all these, The Hunger Games and Grey's Anatomy and Dawson's Creek and all these shows and all this stuff. And I was like, what is this? These
[00:13:00] people started out without record deals.
They were just licensing music. So I was like, okay, I'm going to put all my energy into that. And so I started to ask more questions. What songs do these people need? Who are these people? What's their email address? How do I make a relationship with them? And I made it my job to focus on that. And it took 18 months.
And by 18 months I was out of money because I was living in LA without a job spending $2,500 on rent. That's what it caught. Like I was bleeding money and making music. I was recording music. So I was spending money and some of the songs were not exactly what they needed. And a lot of people weren't writing me back and I was getting phone calls unanswered.
But after 18 months I got my very first license and I made $58,000 and they used a song of mine called We're Good Together. We're good together. We're good together. Look at how we shine. Anyway, they use the song in a Hasbro commercial and they paid me 58 grand just to use it, not to own it.
[00:13:58] Then I licensed it again to something else.
[00:14:00] Then I wrote another song. Then I made another relationship with ABC. Then I wrote songs for switched at birth. And then it all just tipping point like, boom. Then I started writing music constantly. And when I look back, like even in the heyday of my music world life, I did that for a decade.
I did that for 10 years. I did nothing else for 10 years, other than be a mom and write those songs for Spelman TV. And at the top of it, I probably had 28 buyers, Paramount, Lion's Gate, somebody at this ad agency. Like it wasn't like thousands of people. And it's amazing how 28 people in the world who you have a relationship with can turn your dreams into a reality.
So here's what happened next is I thought I'm going to get a record deal. I was still holding onto that. So I was like, look, what's happened. Like my song was in this movie, it was featured like, people are gonna, the things are gonna start to happen. It didn't happen. What happened was something I didn't predict, which was that other artists did this.
[00:15:00] Hey can you help me? Hey, can you help me? Knock, like emails, phone calls. And I'm like, why are you calling me? I can't help you. I don't do that. I don't have a school. I'm not Berkeley. I'm not. And a friend of my husband's was reading the billboard magazine, which made me feel cool.
Cause he's I picked up billboard, like you were a full page and he came over and he's you're sitting on a gold mine. And I'm like, what? He's you should teach other artists. You should be an agent for other artists. And I felt insulted. I'm like, I'm an artist. And I want people to hear this too.
We are very much an or we forget the yes. And we are so precious about our identity. It's no, I'm an artist. No. It's wait, there might be more for you. Maybe there's ways that you're being led to serve the world and like just trust the process. So finally I'm like that kept bouncing around in my head what he said to me and my husband's you have nothing to lose.
And I said people are not going to take me seriously as an artist. What was the complete opposite? I started an agency. I started
[00:16:00] pitching other artists along with myself. That was step one. And I started making these indie artist. Money. And it felt really cool to help them. And I made a little percentage of it.
Then I realize these artists needed some help. So I start my first course called six-figure song songwriting in my living room three houses ago. I start this. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm charging. I'm just 10 people come over. Then I got three of those workshops. People loved it. I was like, let me rent a place.
Cause I need more chairs. I rent a theater for $150. We have 50 seats. I filled it up. And then if I was like, this is something then there were I still at that point never thought I'd have a podcast, but other people had music podcasts and they were like, can you talk about licensing? So I go on the CD baby podcasts and he says, We've never had an episode.
That's downloaded as much as this people are. So interested in what you just talked about and I get this life changing email from this
[00:17:00] girl, Tiana. I didn't know who went to Berkeley, undergrad, Berkeley School of Music. She goes, I just heard that episode. Please tell me, you will create an online class because I don't live near you.
And I have to learn from you. And I'm like online class. Is that Japanese? What are yous? I really didn't know that world. Like I was coming from like record deal to like living in LA writing music for Disney soundtracks. What's an online class. She says to me, Amy Porterfield, I go who's that? She goes, just look her up and take her class and build a course that I'm like, you're insane.
Goodbye. And then that was jiggling around in my head. And she says to me, do you understand you're making a few hundred grand a year. You could make that in one launch of a class because she said there will always be a line of people around the block for everything you do for every one customer.
There'll be 50 people who want to know how you did what you did. And I'm like, okay. Jiggling around in my head.
[00:18:00] So at that point we lived in a cute little, $1 million. It was literally 1 million, 50,000. That's all we could afford. We were doing okay. But like we had our $1 million cute Spanish bungalow, LA house.
And I was pregnant with our third daughter and I was like, wait a minute. I wonder if this would be a game changer. And then my kids can go to the better school and we can have a better house in LA. Cause it's expensive. I'm pregnant. I've got three months till the baby's going to be born. I'm just going to fricking do this thing.
Let's just do it. I didn't have an Instagram account. I didn't have an email list. I looked up what you do. And I was like, oh God, it was like exhausting. I would read one thing about what I'm supposed to do, like creating an opt-in and attaching a lead page to a thing people download and exchange.
And I was like, my heart would race. I'm like, this is so not me, but I did it. I created one fricking opt-in, which was like, here are the 10 things you need to know to license music. I love it. And I put it out [00:19:00] and I didn't know what I was doing, but like I posted it in a Facebook group and then people shared it and I thought, okay, if I get a thousand people to download this free thing, I'll do a free webinar.
And I had never done a webinar and I had a big pregnant belly and I had not one slide because I didn't know what slides were. I didn't know how to do that. I go on, I do this webinar for 1014 people. It took six weeks to get that many people who were like, sure, I'll do this thing for you. I want to learn.
It's free. I do a one hour webinar. Straight to camera, pour my guts out. And here's what I did. Here's what you can do. Write this down at the end. I said, I'm going to do a class. It's called six figure song writing. It's a year. I made it up. Now my classes are 12 weeks.
Like I never would do a year. I didn't know what I was doing. I was like, it's a year it's 9 97 because Amy Porterfield said 9 97 is a good price. A thousand dollars, 147 people bought it. And that night I looked at my husband and I was like, I just made $147,000 one
Hala Taha: [00:20:00] That's crazy.
[00:20:02] Then I had the baby, I taught the class.
I loved teaching the class and. One of my students said you need to have a podcast. And I was like, I don't know what that means. She goes, I know a woman who sells ads for billboard, Adam Corolla, and a bunch of comedians who have podcasts, just have coffee with her. And I'm like, sure, I'm 10 days postpartum having a baby fine.
And this woman says you need about 10,000 listeners to make it even worth it. I'm like that'll never happen, but okay, great. I start a podcast. And then within two weeks of starting the podcast, I get a call from three book publishers saying this show is phenomenal. People want to leave their day jobs.
People want to do something creative. This is amazing. We want to offer you a book deal. I'm like, I can't write a book. I really haven't written anything like that. Since 10th grade English class. So give me a minute. Meanwhile, I had just launched the second
[00:21:00] launch of the music class and it made 441 grand. Then I launched it again.
It made 750,000. Then I figured out something that now I do, which is not a webinar, but a five day challenge and I've perfected it. And now when I launch we'll make a million and a half dollars with very little Facebook ad spend, maybe we'll spend $5,000 on Facebook ads, but the challenge, I am like the queen of doing a challenge.
Meanwhile, I start this podcast and it starts to blow up. We're three years in we're at about 15 million downloads now. It's a dream. And I start realizing, I don't want to just teach musicians. I want to be a stand for people who want to do a thing and need to get resourceful and need to figure out how to separate a business versus a hobby.
I'm like, I am into this. So I started a program called, made to do this. Like how do you figure out what your thing is and how do you actually validate it and make your first five grand, 10 grand? Like, how do you actually do a thing? That's like a
[00:22:00] passion project. It has literally been the funnest ride.
And can you believe my very first, anything online? This CLA this first webinar, this is four years ago. The podcast starts three years ago, and now every quarter we're making multi-millions and this is the best part. Now I teach other people how to do that. Yeah. Isn't that
[00:22:25] And it's working here your students make money.
I know that you have great testimonials. I'm so happy that you unpacked your full story. I think that your story is amazing. I think there's so many things that we can dig into. I'm so proud of your journey. And so there's a few things that I want to point out to my listeners. First of all, you took a break from music, you took a break and you were successful in real estate, but you took a break from music, but then you went back to your dreams.
Something that I noticed when I talked to a lot of people, a lot of people like let go of their dreams and then they feel like they can never go back to them. For me. I left the entertainment industry for
[00:23:00] five years and then I went back. I never thought I would go back, but everything is just like upstream momentum because I'm following my passion and your action and plus passion can make anything happen.
So that's exactly what happened to you. It's like you just got interested and things, you didn't know how to do them. You didn't know how to start an online course. You didn't know how to do a podcast, but you just tried. And something else that you often talk about is that you don't do things
perfect. You do them muscly. Tell us about that. Tell us about how you just jump into anything that you do and just get started because I think people really need to hear.
[00:23:31] I agree with you three things about that. Number one, what you just said is so true. And I heard Tony Robbins say years ago, our greatest resources are resourcefulness.
And the thing that lights up strongest in the brain, I took a bunch of classes at UCLA. They have this mindful awareness center and I took a couple of years of classes there and they said, the thing that lights up strongest in the brain is not love. It's not hate it's enthusiasm. So when you are enthusiastic, other people are magnetized to you.
So when you get resourceful and
[00:24:00] bold and you take messy action, there will be momentum. I said messy because you're right. I think that the biggest thing I see that stands in people's way is that they don't want to do anything unless it's perfect. And the people I know who are successful, have an action taking bias, meaning they will hit it out of the park, but that's because they swing for the fences constantly.
That's because they get up to bat more often. Like you could say Michael Jordan, he is the greatest of all time. Meanwhile, For every point he made, how many shots did he miss? It's the unrelenting. And that is what creates mastery. So Serena Williams, she started out behind her sister and she was like, oh no, you don't like, I will crush you.
And she gave herself permission to play until she was better than her, but she wasn't Mozart day one. We, that doesn't exist. And so when you look at Justin Timberlake, when you look at
[00:25:00] John Williams, when you look at I'm thinking of music people right now, because I'm in that field, but at the top of their field, anybody, right? Like athletics and science, Elon Musk was borrowing money for rent 12 years ago. So what do we know about those people? It's courage and it's courage to be imperfect while you're iterating. Elon Musk said, I'm going to do this thing called electric cars. And if somebody beats me to it, that's great because I actually just think it's an important thing.
The whole world should get on. I'm probably gonna fail a few times. You know what I mean? I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm all in to figure it out. So I think we have to think the way scientists do, like right now, people are going into work. Can you imagine being a scientist is trying to find a cure for cancer, and you've been working at this for 45 years and every day is a no.
Every day, you have nothing, except as a scientist, they feel the reason they stay in it because they're like, oh my God, here's what we learned. That doesn't work. Isn't that amazing. We know so much
[00:26:00] more and we're getting closer. So instead of looking at failure as the end, they see failure as feedback. And that is so crucial.
And I'm one of those people. I think part of having an uncomfortable childhood was a blessing because there was no illusion that life is just like easy and smooth. We make it what it is if we stay in it. So there's that the other thing is, and I don't think everybody hears this and I think this is really important.
There's a lot of conversation about our dreams. Do what you love. There's a more important piece. The more important piece is radical empathy for other people. We're not put here. Because it's about us, we're put here to serve. So I had to let go of my dream and open the door to, is there any other way that I'm of use to the world, that I can be a value to the world and put my ego aside.
[00:27:00] started to find out in the way that I even was successful with my music, this is interesting. This is important. I wasn't successful in film and TV because I wrote songs I wanted to write and people bought them. No, it was because I would have these conversations with the head of soundtracks at NBC and say, what do you need?
What story are you telling? Oh, Cathy, we have this sister movie, can you, right? I'll be right back. So the empathy is crucial. The thing that people don't realize is there's a difference between a hobby and a business. A hobby is this is about what I love. And it doesn't matter what you think.
If it's a business by definition, someone paid me. If someone paid me, they need this thing, or they want this thing, which means it's about them. People do not want to swallow that, but I'll tell you what, the people behind Apple products, the people behind Skippy, peanut butter, the people
[00:28:00] behind any business, you love, care so much about what you want.
And that's why they're successful. And a lot of people have a very hard time with that and they're missing the boat because it's a pleasure when we do something and somebody is uplifted by it. So what I did is I just kept looking for like, where am I needed? So then these students were like, can you teach me?
And at first I was like, no. And then I'm like, let me say yes. And it worked, then somebody else was like, it's inspiring. Start a podcast. Okay, let me do that. Then I started seeing that people need this. I'm like, let me do that. And it starts being that I'm led not by what I love. But by what people are saying as a reflection, this is what I need from you.
Now that's different from, this is what I need. It's a problem I can solve. It's them saying to me there's a lot of people who for years, people have said to them constantly what they love about them, but they ignore it. Everyone who's listening has gotten feedback at some point in their life.
[00:29:00] you're such a good listener. You're so good with clothes. You really helped give me good advice. Every time I'm about to build something, you come over, listen to that. It's a problem you were built to solve. As opposed to saying, I see a lot of people who they ignore all of that. And then they keep pushing this door.
That's not going to open because it's not about anyone else it's but I want this. And why what's the reason for it. And here's the thing I think it's cause deeply people want to feel seen. So they have this, like I need to be seen in this way. Just maybe you'll feel even more seen when you do that thing, that the way you do it, the world is just like floored.
Cause you really served, so I've just come to see how empathy plays a big role in the way that we show up in business. And then I've also learned a lot about what actually makes people buy things and how sales is like it's a long runway. It's
[00:30:00] not, here's a product, here's a service.
It's let's build the intimacy. Let's really connect. Let's like make sure that you feel that I get what you need first and you have a full experience of this thing. And then I don't even have to sell you on it. Cause like we're already in a relationship. So business is relationships. It's not numbers.
And I've learned that. And when you focus on that and you just make deposits with people and you think of like, how can I show up and how can I get. And I mean in a very tactical way and we can talk about it more. It just happens. The momentum it shows up. Yeah.
[00:30:37] Oh my gosh. You just gave so much good advice and there's so many things that I want to talk to you about in terms of the lessons that you brought out.
The first one is the fact that. You're not scared to go up to your potential clients and ask them what they want. So instead of trying to guess what they want, you actually ask them, what do you want? And from when I was doing your research, I know you, and you just
[00:31:00] mentioned it, like you would call up random people that you didn't even know, and introduce yourself, ask them what they want.
And then you'd make a good impression because it'd be like nobody has ever done this before. So you like, you would immediately stand out as somebody who has courage, like you mentioned. And who's smart enough to know that you're not going to work on something before, there's actually a demand for it.
And then also what you said about thinking about what people praise you for. That's a clue into what you're special at, what you're extremely talented at and what you could possibly sell that people will actually want. So I think those are all key things that everybody listening should think about. One thing that I want to go back to is your resourcefulness.
So can you tell us an example of when you were relentlessly resourceful, you did something that most people wouldn't have done to get that job, to get to that next step.
[00:31:45] Constantly every single day is the answer I'm doing it constantly. I can give you so many examples, but one of them that's fun is that when I was starting out in this music thing of trying to license my music, I kept feeling like I would send
[00:32:00] emails or I would make phone calls.
And nine times out of 10 people wouldn't answer their phone or they wouldn't call me back. Or they wouldn't respond to an email once in a while they would, which was also fine, but I wanted more and I thought, you know what? It's nobody's job to help me. And I think that people get really cynical. They're like, oh, it's such a mean business.
It's look, this person is sitting at a desk. They have a job. Then after work, they have to take their dog to the vet. They also have their own issues. They have a boss. They're not just waiting for a stranger to call them and go, oh, how can I just give you a lecture on what you need to do for your career?
That's not fair. That's not. Do you do that every day? No. So I realized I have to make deposits. I have to make a relationship before I can ask them to even tell me what they need and trust me, who am I? They're just going to tell me, oh yeah, we're working on. It's so I needed to connect on a human level.
So one day I'm sitting at my computer and I'm like, I gotta do something out of the box. And I'm just like, I don't overthink things. That's one of my strengths. I'm like
[00:33:00] everybody likes coffee. So I just open up my computer. I never, at that point made anything. So I'm not good. At graphic design, I pull a picture of a Starbucks frappuccino off the internet.
I pull a picture of a little girl with a guitar off the internet. She was like a cartoon girl with a guitar. And I put a plus sign between them. So like this little girl with the guitar, a plus sign and a Starbucks. And I wrote on top. Mochas and music. And then I wrote, step one, tell me your favorite Starbucks drink.
Step two. Tell me what day and time to drop it off. And step three, I'll leave you with some music and some coffee. And that's it. I took this little PDF image and I put it inside of an email and I sent it to about 80 people and a bunch of people said nothing. And some people said, no, thank you. And 26 people said, sure.
And I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to start delivering coffee. So I'm like, what do you want? And then I went and I actually added to it. I was like, does your assistant want something? Cause I figure, okay, so it's going to cost me 15 bucks, but it will be so awesome.
[00:34:00] I walked in to 26 offices of different people who chose music for TV shows and ads.
And would you believe a year later there was a billboard article and the editor billboard said, how many licenses did you have this year? And I said, 26, every one of them worked with. And that was the breakthrough is and I didn't have the music already that every one of them needed. I did, but I walked in that office and I did not take the bait.
I didn't say, let me tell you about myself. Nope. I really held on to what my mission was, which is, this is not about me. I said, here's the coffee. I was ready to walk right back out the door. And they each said, sit down in some offices. I stayed for eight minutes in some offices. I stayed for an hour. We didn't talk about music.
I asked them about them. Why do you like your job? What got you into it? What's your story? Do you have kids? Do you like living in LA? Like we just went into a conversation and I was really truly
[00:35:00] interested because I really admire these people. And I was actually so impressed at how many of these people helped all these indie artists.
And they're not record label executives making this big money. They're just music fans who find these artists and then these artists blow up. So I had a lot of respect for them. It wasn't fake. It led to a relationship where then they were like, you know what? I will listen to this music you brought and let me follow up with you.
And so then they would give me a shot, Cathy, we're working on something, we need a song about home. Let us know if you have something and I'm like, I'll go write something and then sure enough, I did. And they liked it. And then it led to the next thing and the next thing. So I think that was pretty resourceful and I do stuff like that constantly
[00:35:43] So I love that you were just so creative, you just did something that was totally out of the box. You didn't know if it would work or not, but it didn't take much of your time to just put a PDF together and send out an email blast. And then the long-term effects of it were amazing. You got 26 people the following year who worked
[00:36:00] with you.
So I think. So cool. So innovative and just shows like how much you think outside the box. Something else I want to talk about is your concept of deep engagement. So I learned that you like to have 10 Instagram conversations a day with your audience. So what makes it so important to you to connect deeply with your listeners or clients?
[00:36:22] I think that people in general really look at numbers, so we're like, oh, wouldn't it be so cool if I had a hundred thousand followers, 200,000 followers, and I don't think people really understand what matters more is the depth of the relationship. So if you have a hundred thousand followers, but you get 24 comments on a post, it's not a connected, deep, intimate relationship you have with your audience.
But if you have 4,800 followers and you get 58 comments on a post and 1200 likes. It's amazing what you've built. That's incredible. That's
[00:37:00] so special. I think that, what I've seen in my life is you don't need millions of people to buy from you. You also underestimate how, if you do have a, of course that's 9 97 and a hundred people take it a hundred people in the world.
That's a hundred grand. If you have a program that's $3,000 in a hundred people take it. That's 300 grand, right? Every single person on average has about 400 friends online. So everything is word of mouth. And if you have a really strong relationship with 10 people, and then they share about how much they loved working with you, you'll probably soon have 20 people and then they'll share.
And it's more important to have that intimacy than it is to have a bigger number with much less connection involved.
[00:37:53] What would you say to somebody? This is like a random question that wasn't planned, but I'll just ask it. There's a lot of like
[00:38:00] skepticism about people who launch courses. There's a lot of like feelings that people who launch courses are like scammy.
And I think that it's starting to go away because the new way that people want to educate themselves is through courses. So what would you say to that in terms of like people who think that courses are like selling a course is like being a sellout or yeah, I can get my just,
[00:38:23] yeah, I do. I think I felt that way too when I started and I was like, I don't really want to be a part of something online, something about it did feel maybe because we do see ads popping up a lot and there's something that feels disingenuous about a lot of people.
So I will say two things. One. I don't sell courses and I'll tell you what, I don't think people buy courses. I don't think that's what people buy. And I'll explain when I go ahead and invite people to work with me, I make sure that they understand, and this is really the truth. I don't think people
[00:39:00] are buying the course.
That's going to sit on their desktop, those videos. It's not going to work. What we find in the data is most of those people don't complete those courses. So it's a waste of money. What I sell is I'm actually going to keep you accountable and I'm going to show up live, and I'm going to help you implement all this information.
So it's it's just the implementation of whatever it is. You don't have to be a coach. You can be a person who teaches people, how to be vegan. You can be a person who teaches people how to play piano. You might not necessarily consider yourself a coach, but it's the I'm going to help you look at the difference of this.
Let's say you watch videos on YouTube with a yoga teacher, they're all free, or you hire a yoga teacher and you're in a class and that person can come over and give you an adjustment or give you some information that helps your ankle. That's very different than watching it for free. And I think a lot of people have all these to-do lists, right?
I'm going to start a podcast. I'm going to be more
[00:40:00] successful. I'm going to be healthier, but there's not a lot on the, to done list nothing's done. So what I think I do is I say, If you actually want to start a business, if you actually want to start a podcast, if you actually do want this year to license your music and you want to be doing it, not thinking about it, but doing it, then this program is an insurance policy because you will get it done.
So the way I set up my programs are like these full, interactive, immersive things, where there's a tremendous amount of built in accountability. And there's a lot of live engagement, zoom calls where it's it's constant for me, that's worth everything. And if you look at a school like a college and people are paying depending where you go could be 20 grand a year, 70 grand a year.
And it is theoretical. It is theory. It is not actual [00:41:00] versus spending three grand five grand on a 12 week program, immersed with the person who's doing it and has done it and is going to add that they're showing up and making sure you do it. That is a tremendous gift, right? The fastest way to get from point A to point B is to find the person who is at point B.
Who's going to take you there and save you the 10 years. And save you the time. That's why it depends on what you're buying. I personally, don't like these programs that are like, it's an amazing webinar and you can spend this money and go watch these videos. That to me, I wouldn't do because it's all for me about the accountability.
And it's all to me about, I need the feedback loop from the person who looks at it, puts their eyes on it and says, no, it's this, it's not this, those little tweaks and the coaching because I also don't think we buy the thing just for the information. I think the transaction is the
[00:42:00] energetic exchange of being around the person who holds that frequency of, I actually live this life and the more you're around that person, you're like, I'm starting to absorb this and it's not just the information.
It's this person's energy and confidence. And it's pushing me to actually do these things. And it's lightning in a bottle I've literally had. I it's insane. The ways that people feel after taking my programs, they're like I would pay 20 times what I paid for it. And I feel like it's the, I feel like it's the greatest impact I've made.
I will also say one other thing, which is what will help people be less skeptical. I teach the entire class in the free challenge. I teach the entire class in the five day free challenge if I do a webinar, which I don't, because I can't get it all in, in one hour, I still would teach as much as I can. I don't do this thing where I'm like, here's, what's possible.
And if you want to know how to do it, join the class. I know that's
[00:43:00] really hip to do, but I just don't do that. I don't like doing that. I also have a lot of reasons to believe that it's really good for me, my business, to give a lot of stuff away for free. It's really good for my business. So when I do a five day free challenge, People are taking pages of notes and I a hundred percent believe that they will be better off after the five days that are free.
And some of them will be totally good to go. They will not need the class. And that's awesome. It really helps my brand. It really builds my platform. It brings so many more people to my podcast. It's so fun. And the people who decide to join my program. That's also awesome. And they just need, they're like, I got a lot out of it and I not have you around for three months.
So that's all, it costs 3,500 bucks and I get to be around you for three months, like where you're really showing up. That's a no-brainer for me and for everybody else. We're good because I love giving that away. And I
[00:44:00] love how it builds my audience, like in the deepest way and their fans forever. So it's the way that people should live their life, I think is just give as much away as possible.
[00:44:10] Totally. And honestly, you've inspired me because I feel like people are always asking me to teach them. I'm like really good at graphic design and video editing and marketing, and obviously podcasting and people are always asking me and I was always like, I don't know if I want to do it, but I think I definitely will.
I think, honestly, you sound so fulfilled from having filled from it, honestly. And I think it's a future, honestly, because I think people are gonna to more away from traditional education. It's not really working. I think more of like internships, apprenticeships, mentorships. I think that's the future. And I think that's where you play.
[00:44:45] I have three little kids. They're little three, six and eight, but I think about them going to college and I'm like, I didn't learn one thing. No, not one thing that I liked it
[00:45:00] though. I had fun. I liked being on campus. I had a cool boyfriend. I worked for the college paper, but that's a different thing than like my career.
It's so funny how that was not career related at all. It was like a life experience, but my career has been learning on the job and the conversations I've had with guests on my podcast and starting a podcast is like the most spectacular thing you can do. Talk about getting a masterclass, like on my show, I've interviewed Malcolm Gladwell, Barbara Corcoran.
Every person, I admire Howard Schultz who started Starbucks. Like those are masterclasses for me. So that's another best thing you can do for yourself is like start your own show where you just get to be a fly on the wall and absorb you get an hour alone with Malcolm Gladwell. It's start a show.
No. Did that not, did that happen on the first month of my show? No, but it happened pretty quickly. Like it's amazing. What's possible. And there's no cost to entry for podcasts. There used to be, if you wanted
[00:46:00] to write a book, it's you got to beg Harper Collins to think. Right now you can go to Amazon and buy a $65 microphone and you have an authority.
All of a sudden you have something to say, why not? I would do it.
[00:46:13] I know. I always encourage my listeners that a lot of people are scared that there's too many podcasts out there. But like you said, it's not about how wide you're going. It's about how deep you're going. So if you can find people that care about what you're saying, if you have a specific niche and like you said, it's a great way to learn from mentors.
Okay. I'm learning from you. I had Robert Green on my show, Mark Manson on my show, like huge names that would have never talked to me if I didn't have any sort of platform. So definitely encourage everyone to go out and start a podcast. If you want to. I want to talk about your Workday because I learned that you only work four hours a day.
[00:46:47] Sometimes less.
[00:46:48] That's crazy to me. I'm here. Literally, I have a full-time job. I have my podcast. I have a freelance project. I have a client, like I work 80 hours a week, 90 hours [00:47:00] a week. So I want to know how you are able to manage all. Cause you have multiple projects too. How are you able to do everything in four hours a
[00:47:07] I started out working like that nonstop and then I realized the more successful you are, you work smarter, not harder, that's it. So I actually think it's less work to make multi-million dollars than it is to make $40,000. If you're making $40,000, you are working, standing on your feet all day. It's hard.
If you're making millions, what you figured out is you've stepped back and instead of working in your business, you've worked on your business and you've looked at things and you've been able to build something which you can now launch every so often. There's a lot to that, but I, there are days where I don't work at all.
I don't, I only work four hours a day. Sometimes I work nothing at all. It depends on the day. It's how I intentionally built my life though. Like when I was doing music, I had to build it every time again, in order for me to make 50 grand from Coca Cola
[00:48:00] for a song, I had to sit down, write a hit, and they have their pick of the litter. So I had to write a great song, which means in order to get that one choice that they would pay. I had to show up for them probably 12 times where there were other things they didn't choose just to keep the relationship alive. So it was a lot of labor intensive, constant making the relationships, getting them getting in the room.
So I could even have something to pitch to. Then I had to go do the work. Oh, can you make this edit? Actually, we're not going to use it, the client pass, but we have this thing for Walmart. Can you work on that? It was constant. And it took me all my time to make that money $300,000, $400,000 a year, right?
From like a bunch of placements on TV. When I started teaching classes, it was like, oh, let me start getting better and better at this. Cause. I can do the music stuff just in between when I want to, I'll take a project when I want to, I'll write a theme song for Netflix when I want to, but I don't have to.
And everything comes down to building a deep relationship with an
[00:49:00] audience because a portion of that audience will convert to buy something. And like I said, I'm making multi-millions. I know it sounds like, oh, so weird that she says it, but I say it because I want people to hear it. It's not a big deal, you know what I'm saying?
It really, we put it on such a pedestal. This is the problem. And we think there's like only one little tiny bridge that gets you there. And who knows where to find that? It's no, it's available. I have tons of friends who do this and no one knows them. Seth Godin is my personal mentor.
He's Cathy, if you go into Google and you just type the word, Seth, I'm the first thing that shows up. That's how many people read his blog and he goes, and if you round up to the nearest million, most people don't even know who I am. Even though I have a decent following. I'm still not even a PR. I'm not even a thing.
And I'm making so much money because a small piece of my audience will buy these programs or whatever. So I say to people with their show, with their platform, if you
[00:50:00] had 62 people come to your house, every Tuesday, your neighbors would be like, why are there 62 cars in front of your house? It's a lot of people.
So when people are like, I can't start a podcast, I won't have 15 million downloads. I'm like, how about 62? How about 62 people and you then have a thing where you do this program or this retreat, or you're having an online summit or you're offering the candles you made. And 24 of those people buy that from you every month.
My friend Jenny was just on shark tank. I want to tell you this really quickly, she's my best friend from high school. I've known her forever. And we kind of riff on this stuff all the time and she became vegan and she wanted to do something. And she was a stay at home mom and she wanted to work and she wasn't sure what to do.
So she starts making vegan recipes and she comes across this vegan corn beef recipe, and her husband liked it and he eats meat. So she's oh, let me go try, let me, let's see if other people like it. Other people liked it. Now here's the thing we talked about working hard versus working smart. If she would have said I'll sell a sandwich to
[00:51:00] each person, one at a time that's 15 bucks a sandwich at best.
No, you know what? Smarter zoom out. And instead of having to sell hundreds of sandwiches to hundreds of humans, how about you get one client zoom out and say, who's my one client. Oh, I'm going to call this really popular deli in LA and see if they want to buy a hundred pounds, corn beef. Let me call another place.
How about Dodger stadium? Do they want one kiosk with vegan food? So she did that. And three weeks in to her she's on the phone, making the calls. No one that wants to make she's calling the managers, the delis, she was calling Quiznos corporate. She was calling whole foods and scared out of her mind. This is how you work four hours a day because that's smart.
That's the smart way. Not getting a food truck and selling it one at a time and trying to make $800. No, she wound up
[00:52:00] getting meetings, bringing a corner of a sandwich for someone to taste. She wound up getting into 10 delis in LA. She wound up getting into Quiznos. They tried her in one local store. People liked it.
They went into the whole region within 10 months of making that corn beef in her kitchen. She was making multi-millions, that's working smart, not working hard. And that's what I'm saying. When I had to build the widget, every conversation call this place, fly out to Madison avenue, meet with this ad agency, fly out to Minnesota.
I was in Minnesota, walking into target and best buy talking to them about their campaign. Yeah. It felt like awesome at the time, but you look back, how can you be even smarter? How can you affect more people? And so when it comes back to online, Like with Jenny, she found buyers that already had those customers.
So one person led to thousands at one time. She knew if she got subway, she's
[00:53:00] done. She's done. And that's what happened. So now she's in everyone, Mendocino farms, Quiznos, hopefully like everything. It's just ridiculous. It's so done beyond done. And with me, I knew wait a minute, like it's even smarter for me to keep thinking about like, where is a bigger pool and how can I if this is what I want to say in the three-dimensional world in not online.
But like in your neighborhood, how many people can you really talk to in a day? How many people will you meet and have real conversations with?
[00:53:31] In COVID none, but
[00:53:33] none 29. Online in one hour, you can talk to 5,000 people, 20,000 people like it's just more effective. And then a small group of those people are going to show up and be interested in what this thing is, but what does it take?
You have to have an offer. And a lot of people are so ashamed of who am I to have an offer? Who am I to charge for
[00:54:00] something? And that's where it all falls apart. You have to have the, my friend Susie said to me, Susie Moore, she goes, you either have the courage to sell, or you will work for someone who does. Isn't that good?
[00:54:13] I love that.
[00:54:14] Because either you marry rich or you own have the courage to sell what you do, your service your product or whatever, but you'll let somebody else have the courage and you'll work for that insurance company. You'll work for that person's graphic design company. Cause cause they're entitled to sell and I'll let them be courageous and then they can pay me.
But I don't believe in what I'm doing. So I'll work for the person who has courage to sell their thing. Like when you really think about it, that's what it is.
[00:54:43] Yeah. I think this was such an amazing conversation. I think you brought up so many points about being courageous, taking risks, being creative, right?
Being resourceful. So many different tips that we can use no matter what industry we're in and no matter what career goals that we have. So thank you
[00:55:00] so much.
[00:55:00] Can you tell, I love talking about this stuff.
[00:55:03] I love it. It's inspiring me. I feel so motive. Even when I, before I met you, I was like, this lady is inspiring me to be like an entrepreneur faster than I would be.
The last question that I ask all my guests is what is your secret to profiting in life?
[00:55:19] I think the answer that comes to me is there's a line in the Talmud. Hey, the Talmud is like this 3000 year old Jewish text, and it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. It says that the first question God asks you when you get to heaven is to answer for every pleasure and every beautiful thing in the world that you did not taste.
And the way I interpret that is it's all here. The sunsets, the sushi, the really good friends, the beautiful apartment, the really good towels. And we. I
[00:56:00] don't believe we deserve it. And we put a ceiling on what's possible and we don't reach for it. And we settle and we tolerate less. I don't just mean quality of the physical stuff.
We settle for less in our relationships. We allow ourselves to be around people who are negative, who don't really see us. We allow ourselves to say it's okay, I'll just have this little tiny place. I'll just have this job that doesn't fulfill me. I'll just sit over here. That is not our job.
And we stay now at we stay at the peninsula, we stay at the Ritz, we stayed at the four seasons. You know what a big difference it is between that and holiday Inn or a Hilton, not even in the same universe. Do you know what a difference? It is? The the quality of women, friends in my life right now, we are all courageous, hardworking,
vulnerable people who make seven figures
[00:57:00] because we show up and we show up for each other. And there's no snickering going on. Everyone is like integrity. That is the cost of admission to the cool club is you're going to be vulnerable. You're going to have empathy. You're going to show up for yourself.
You're going to do that hard healing work on your inner child, all that stuff. I'm saying the path to profit is don't settle for less than, you deserve. I think successful people see rain drops everywhere and bring out a bucket. They see opportunity, they see possibility and they just go allow it in non-successful people are like, it's not possible.
There's no reason I would even. So then we just, we put the ceiling on ourself in every regard and we know deep down that it's garbage and we just don't believe we're worthy of more. And then of course most people than fighting about politics on Facebook all day, because they're miserable. If they
[00:58:00] just allowed themselves to get busy, being resourceful, sending that scary email, posting their own podcast, even though it's messy and a mediocre, which mine were too.
And it's do you know the momentum? Do you know, the doors will open to gifts in your life? And then you won't be busy worried about all that other stuff, because you'll be busy having fun. And I want to say one last thing, which is the biggest payoff to doing all of this. It's not even about, oh, my podcast has these downloads.
Oh we got married check. We have this house check. It's who you become in pushing through your resistance and doing these things. You push through your resistance. You're scared as hell. Cause your parents have the worst divorce and you got married anyway. And you went to therapy with your husband and you cried it out and you don't run.
Who do you become from that? That's the win, you pushed through you published
[00:59:00] that podcast, you felt like an idiot. That's your win. We're not responsible for what God does with what we do. We're responsible for the doing of it. Our job is do the darn thing. Let him take care of what comes of it and that's the magic.
So everyone that I see that's unhappy is waiting and deciding that nothing's going to happen. So don't wait, be messy and decide that it is possible. And just watch what that does and keep listening to podcasts like this, because what you're doing is helping a lot of people.
[00:59:37] Thank you. Cathy this was so inspirational.
I am pumped. I feel more motivated than ever. I'm very motivated naturally, but now I feel like I could just run a marathon. Let's go. So I'm very excited. You've definitely inspired me. I'm sure you inspired all of our listeners who are tuning in.
[00:59:56] You look like Jasmine from Aladdin
[01:00:00] Disney princess. And I just had just two of the hardest weeks of my life.
And you can see work is such a gift. I just had, we went through a scary health thing and. It was really scary. It was really hard. It really was. And to, a week and a half ago I was in surgery and all of this yucky stuff. And it's amazing how my work lifts me. Look at this conversation, like what a great distraction like you and I, weren't just talking about celebrity gossip.
I wasn't shopping. And look how yummy, right? Look what that does for me. So that's the beauty of doing your stuff in the world. It really does. You said it before, you're like, you're fulfilled. I'm like. It is fulfilling. Cause it's not just to oh, I bought a thing. You buy a blouse.
[01:00:45] Making a difference.
Yeah. You're impacting
[01:00:47] So thank you for giving that to me. Cause I had gone really hard weeks and then I get to do stuff like this and I, it makes me happy.
[01:00:53] Yes. And you'll be happier when it comes out too. So where can our listeners go to find more about you and everything that [01:01:00] you do?
[01:01:01] You can come to Instagram cause I'm very active there and I'm at cathy,heller, cathy,heller.
And then the podcast is really awesome. Those interviews with Malcolm Gladwell and Rob Lowe are coming out soon. I just interviewed Jason Mraz and Alli Webb who created the dry bar. Mark Manson, like you said, was on our show and Bobby Brown, who's a makeup artist and Mandy Moore, it's been, this is the funnest ride.
You can find that everywhere on Apple Podcast, on wherever you listen to podcasts. And then I have a website, cathyheller.com. And there's a free quiz there, actually, which if you're trying to figure out what would my career dream be? We worked pretty hard on making something really fun and that's free and you can take it there.
[01:01:41] Cool. So her podcast is called Don't Keep Your Day Job. It's the number one, Apple Podcast is huge. So definitely go check that out and check out all her courses. I'll stick links in my show notes. So you guys have easy access. Thank you so much, Cathy. It was a pleasure. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to
[01:02:00] Young And Profiting Podcast.
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