#142: Make a Powerful First Impression with Mark Bowden

[00:00:00] Hala Taha: You're listening to YAP Young And Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host Hala Taha and on Young And Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life.

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[00:01:03] This week on YAP we're chatting with Mark Bowden. Mark is a bestselling author, Founder, and a world-leading Human Behavior/Body Language expert. He is credited with pioneering nonverbal analysis and human behavior. Where it pertains to influence and persuasion. His techniques have been used by high caliber leaders like the Canadian prime minister, and he is the founder and president of TRUTHPLANE, a communication training company.

[00:01:31] Mark uses his unique system of cutting edge and effective non-verbal communication techniques to help people become more competent, collaborative, and credible in their communication. And today's episode Mark. And I will talk about his childhood and how his dyslexia brought him to his passion for human behavior.

[00:01:49] We'll learn the difference between influence and persuasion, how to understand other people's values from small talk and we'll gain an understanding for what it's like to make a [00:02:00] powerful first impression. If you want to learn how to better connect with others and communicate more effectively, you'll be fascinated by this conversation.

[00:02:10] Hi Mark. Welcome to Young And Profiting Podcast.

[00:02:13] Mark Bowden: Hala, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:15] Hala Taha: I'm super excited for this conversation. We've had many conversations on Clubhouse, but this is the first time we have a video one-on-one and I just get to speak with you. One-on-one I'm super excited because you are known to be the pioneer of Human Behavior and Body Language related to influence and persuasion.

[00:02:32] So you are the guy. That we have today. It's my favorite topic in the world, human behavior. So can't wait to dig into all of it. But first we'd like to start off with childhoods. So I read and heard that you had dyslexia, when you were younger and it really troubled you, you were pretty behind in terms of your level of reading and writing, growing up.

[00:02:53] And I want to know how that impacted your confidence, how that impacted your self-esteem, and even how that shaped you later on as an [00:03:00] adult with your career choices and things like that.

[00:03:02] Mark Bowden: Yeah. Love so yes I'm dyslexic and I've had it from being a little kid, but was not diagnosed in any way back then.

[00:03:09] So things could be a little bit tricky as I'm sure other others who are dyslexic may have appreciated themselves. Now I did pretty well because, I could find ways of getting around stuff and through stuff and under stuff. And through the system and others don't have that. It's not really luck. They just don't get to where, I've got to through whatever methods, but anyway, yes, reading and writing was pretty hard for me at the same time.

[00:03:37] As we were streamed in school into kind of sets of ability and there would be areas like visual art, where I was super, super able and spoken language, where I was very able and then reading and writing and mathematics. The very lowest of the low simply because I couldn't get the letters in the right order or the numbers in the right order.

[00:03:59] It's not that I [00:04:00] didn't understand words. I understood them incredibly well on numbers. I understood them incredibly. Just what happens in my head, doesn't end up down on a piece of paper. So it was tricky and it meant that at school, in some subjects, I hung out with all kinds of people and all kinds of levels of ability.

[00:04:17] I saw the whole spectrum of ability because there I was at the top and at the very bottom at the same time.

[00:04:25] Hala Taha: It's super interesting. How your greatest weakness can also be your greatest strength, because I imagine because you couldn't do the reading and writing, like you said, your communication skills were off the charts, probably your natural ability to read human body language and kind of be good in the real world, not just on paper.

[00:04:43] Let's strengthen. Is that correct?

[00:04:45] Mark Bowden: Yeah. So I think, look, I don't think I had abilities any more than anybody else. I was really keyed into the visual world because I was good at that. And I was able to make connections that others clearly couldn't make. I could metaphorically. And in [00:05:00] reality, draw lines between points that other people weren't able to draw the lines between.

[00:05:05] So that was really useful. Having said that I'm always a bit wary of your failures being your greatest strength, because they also are very painful. There also can be heartbreaking and really hard to deal with, so my failures were my greatest failures and my strengths were my strengths and I guess therefore, what we have to do is really always concentrate on the strengths there, I think.

[00:05:31] But look, the reason I think I partly got into. Loving human behavior is that the world was not very understandable for me. Imagine a world where you are really good at some stuff, and then you are the biggest failure at other stuff. So it was a bit of a mystery to me. So I did use to go around the planet, trying to work out why is it like this?

[00:05:55] Why is it so bizarre that I can be in these two [00:06:00] different points at the same time, what's going on here? So that I think that's why I got into human behavior and psychology and influence.

[00:06:08] Hala Taha: Yeah, that's super interesting. I also read, or I can't remember if I read or heard it, but you were interested in Marine biology, correct.

[00:06:16] And the study of animal behavior. So what was so interesting about that?

[00:06:20] Mark Bowden: First of all, we used to get as a kid, we used to go on holiday a lot by the say I'm from the UK, from England specifically was born there. And as we're an island so we're surrounded by sea. So it doesn't take you very long to travel before you get to the sea and you start going well what's in the sea and what's over the sea and it's an island nation.

[00:06:39] And so I was really interested in the sea and just water moves in an incredible way and stuff within water moves and incredible way. We spent some of our time in water as human beings and we're fascinated by water, but we generally live on the land. And we've got this body that is really adapted very well for walking around and sitting around and [00:07:00] doing stuff on land.

[00:07:01] And so when you hit the water and Marine life, I think our mind can often go, wow. How is that like that? We've got, literally, we've got mammals in the water, your dolphins, your whales, sea lions, and stuff, which are descendant from ground dwelling mammals. So this is, in, in terms of evolution, the fish got out of the sea, they became mammals reptiles, and then mammals.

[00:07:23] And then some of the panels when, I liked the sea and they went back in again. And so you get these sea dogs, sea lions, sea cats, you get all of these things. It's it was what, a weird adaption. So I was fascinated, by how the movement of water instead of how we move on land or an air.

[00:07:42] And then

[00:07:43] Hala Taha: in terms of your study is in your evolution to your career.

[00:07:46] Now you got into the performing arts, correct. And you also studied art and how moving art can influence our human behavior. So talk to us about that. How did that set the foundation for your career later?

[00:07:59] Mark Bowden: [00:08:00] Yes. So I've got specifically very good at imagery. And I think that as you suggested early on, that's partly because of the dyslexia and the adaption to what I could get really good at and where I could draw the lines between really well.

[00:08:14] And and I got into theater and film and TV and especially like, how do you tell stories with those moving pictures and how did those affect us as human beings? We're obviously very visual. These eyes, are very expensive to have, and there's a big neocortex that, that is very expensive to run as well to do visual part of our brain.

[00:08:39] So vision is super important to us as human beings. And so I got fascinated by how do these moving pictures, affect our predictions about the world around us? Because our brain is not a knowledge machine. It's a best guess machine. And it starts to look for, specific patterns [00:09:00] and then do its best guess as to what that pattern might mean to us.

[00:09:03] And so I started to think about, what, if we could make these patterns on purpose for each other to influence and persuade, to deliver to an audience. The world that they expect, or they don't expect and to change their thoughts and feelings. And yeah, I started studying in, in film and TV and theater and visual theater, specifically movement theater, and then in visual arts as well.

[00:09:30] And I've become, over the time quite a collector of art, because I'm just still fascinated in that world of pattern and color and imagery and signals and what they signify. And how that affects us as human beings.

[00:09:45] Hala Taha: That is super interesting. I'm going to dig into some of that later on in this interview.

[00:09:49] Okay. So let's set some context for people who don't know. Let's talk about the animal and reptile.

[00:09:55] Mark Bowden: Yeah so look we've got this brain and in evolutionary terms, it's about 500 [00:10:00] million years old. So we're going to take evolution as a given by the way, 500 million years old. And the oldest part of it, we can call the reptilian brain.

[00:10:09] The most primitive brain. And that's now that some people call it the brainstem, the art complex, there's a whole bunch of names for it. All of them are potentially, wrong because it's all one brain, this is just our way of best guessing at what is happening up here. So it's what we call a model and all models are incorrect.

[00:10:29] That just some are more helpful than others. And the helpful way I like to think about the brain is you've got this primitive brains, reptilian brain 500 million years old. It's running your heartbreak, heartbeat, your breathing rate. It's the thing that causes you to shiver. When you go into a cold shower, it's very difficult to control.

[00:10:45] You can countermeasure it if you know what stimulus is coming. So there's this reflex part of the brain. There's what we call the social mammalian brain. Some people call that the limbic system and our mind what you call it. Some people will call it the [00:11:00] amygdala for probably all of those. Incorrect again.

[00:11:03] The important thing is the model helpful, which you've got this other kind of newer part of the brain, maybe about kind of 5.5 million years old. And that's running our social skills is trying to help us understand is that person going to be a friend to us, part of our group for us. So they're going to be a good friend for life.

[00:11:23] Can we do commerce with them? Do they hold the same value system as us? So can we trust them? So there's that social mammalian part of the brain. And then you've got this super new part of the brain called the neocortex. That's why it's called the neocortex new brain and that's about 200,000 years old.

[00:11:41] It's the reason we can read and write and have such a dextrous language scale, and also quite a dextrous motor neuron scale. The fingers as well. A monkey has got a neocortex or cortex, but it's not as big as ours and it's not as complex as ours. And so [00:12:00] therefore it's never going to play Chopin.

[00:12:02] Okay. It's just not going to be able. To do that, never going to do it can accidentally hammer out a few keys, but it's never going to do that. So yeah, we've got these three parts of the brain. Some people call it the triune brain system. Again, it's not actually how your brain is. It's a model of it.

[00:12:18] It's all one brain. Okay. Anyway, I hope that helps.

[00:12:21] Hala Taha: So not really helps. It's super interesting to think that we have different parts of our brains that evolved at different times. And we've got to deal with all of that at the same time. And a lot of it, we don't have any control over. So I think that is super interesting.

[00:12:37] So you are the pioneer of influence and persuasion and a lot of people bucket those two things together, they think influence and persuasion are the same. Talk to us about why they're different. What are the definitions of those two words?

[00:12:50] Mark Bowden: So let's go to the definitions of them influence.

[00:12:52] I think it's medieval. Latin has French, Latin derivation to it or etymology. So influence means [00:13:00] in flow to be in the river with, so when you want to influence somebody, first of all, you need to get into their river. You need to work out where they're, all ready going and join them. Join the patterns, understand the patterns.

[00:13:17] So one of the first, therefore one of the first keys of influence for me, is can you be influenced by them? Can you, if you want to influence, if you want to influence them, can they influence you? Can you join them? Can you be sympathetic? Can you be empathetic? Can you be emotionally empathetic and cognitively empathetic, well?

[00:13:38] So can you join in their feeling? And can you think about. They're feeling as well at the same time. So I have some cognitive understanding. So that's influenced, can you get in the same space as them and really start to understand it, so that you could now start to lead, where you're going [00:14:00] start to produce behaviors and ideas that because you're now part of a group, they might follow you because your behaviors seem useful to them, seem quite enjoyable and they trust you now because you've been sympathetic and empathetic.

[00:14:16] Now, then there's persuasion. Now persuasion. The etymology of that is to move hard. And so in persuasion. So if we think about this metaphor of the river so influence and persuasion is a river and you get in the river with them. You're floating down the lazy river with them or you're swimming along hard with them.

[00:14:36] And yet in the same flow where that river is inevitably going for them, because they're in charge of the feeling of that point. As you're going along and they start to trust you, you can start to go. There are confluences in the river, there are different directions. We could take, and you can start to describe those different opportunities in front of them.

[00:14:57] And as you describe those, you can [00:15:00] stack the deck. You can describe some as more valuable than others. Evaluate the choices, for them and because they trust you and you've been along the journey so far with them, they'll trust your description. And sometimes they might ask you what do you think I should do?

[00:15:16] Where, which way should we go? And they might even take your advice or you might even be able to go, look, we need to go this way. And they go, I trust you, Mark. Let's do that. Okay. So that's influence and persuasion that two kind of different, tones or elements. And if you can get both together really well, you can help people get what they really need and not necessarily just what they want.

[00:15:47] Or think they should have, you can help them get what they really need and would be more beneficial for them. And sometimes you can help get what you really need out of them and the situation as well. And when [00:16:00] both are aligned, then you've got a really good relationship, a good society, a good group, a good piece of commerce have that explains that well enough for you. Hala.

[00:16:10] Hala Taha: It does. Okay. So let's talk about values because I know that one of the first things that we need to do, if we want to be good at influence and persuasion, is to understand the other person's values. So talk to us about the methods, that we can do that without being so obvious, because if we say what are your values?

[00:16:28] It's super obvious what we're trying to do. So how do we get around that?

[00:16:32] Mark Bowden: And also if you say to somebody, Hey, what are you, what are your values? People will come up with the, with stuff that they think, they should be saying. Like how many times have you looked at a website? And it says we value one of our values is integrity and it's okay, that sounds like it just came off the back of the cereal packet of websites.

[00:16:53] And I'm not saying the person doesn't have integrity. It's just, most people don't ever use the word integrity,

[00:17:00] other than situations where they're trying to build a website and tell people that they can be trusted, or they're trying to, show themselves at that specific point, that they're a good person.

[00:17:10] They're signaling some kind of virtue, but in general conversation, they're not going, Hey, I hope you saw how integrated I was. Or did you see my integrity? Or I'm hoping that you understand my integrity. It's not language that we use. So we need people to tell us. The language that they're using and the things that they're choosing for being the most important things in their world, in the world that they say, okay.

[00:17:39] And so we need an interview technique that will, or some questioning. That will elicit from them, a hierarchy what is most important to you about, okay, so actually, hello. Let me try this with you because I know. Yeah. So I know I know you do a lot of these podcasts with all kinds [00:18:00] of people and thanks for having me on here.

[00:18:02] It's great. Great to be here. What's most important for you about when you choose. Guest to have on what's most important for you?

[00:18:08] Hala Taha: I like when somebody has a specific expertise on a topic, I don't want to have a conversation about everything. Cause then we're having a conversation about nothing.

[00:18:16] So I like a specific expertise. I like to make sure that they have lots of material, lots of opinions. On the matter, they've written a book, they've written multiple books, they've done speeches, they know their stuff and I can really go deep. So that's what I look for.

[00:18:31] Mark Bowden: Yeah. Okay. So while you are doing that, I'm right.

[00:18:36] Scribbling down notes here and I'm scribbling down what you put most emphasis on. Yeah. Cause you said a lot of words, they're all good words, but some words seem to have more value than others. And the words that seem to have more value was specific. Specific the idea of specific. And when I look around at [00:19:00] your, like, how you appear to me yeah.

[00:19:02] And how you've shown up in this frame, it's not very busy. What's happening there. There's really specific choices that you've made. Like the background is very much all, one thing, these shiny things, one mic there, one color here, one kind of style of it. And you're showing up with usually the same style each time, every time I've noticed it too, you clearly like things being specific, really clear and opinion.

[00:19:32] You like opinion you like, so there's knowledge. Okay. And there's lots of stuff, but what does that specific person thinks specifically about this? So they know their stuff. And I think what you mean by stuff is having a specific opinion about a field. Yeah. So that you can go deep. So you want to go deep rather than shallow across everything.

[00:19:56] You can pick out somebody from an area. [00:20:00] A field, but then you're going well, who could go deepest and most specific about that. Now, as I'm feeding those back to you, I'm starting to see where you're doing slow blinks to me, which are moments of recognition. And when you're moving your head up and down as well, agreeing with me, and as we start to have a conversation together, I can now get really specific with you about using some of your parents.

[00:20:27] You nodded your head and you gave me a little blink. That on that word specific with you. Okay. Yeah. There you go again. So now I'm testing out these valuable words, which, which may hint towards, I'm not saying I've got this exactly right, but I'm on the path now to getting this more right. By getting out of you, give me a quick hierarchy about X.

[00:20:53] I could have done it on anything. Okay, could have done it and anything I could have gone, I could have gone. Hey, Hala. I know. Just like [00:21:00] everybody else on the, in our world, you must go shopping at some point. Yeah. So I'm just curious, like what's the most important thing for you when you go and buy something?

[00:21:09] What's the most deci just let me know that what's the most important thing for you. Weird question. I know when you go and buy something.

[00:21:16] Hala Taha: In terms of clothing or just anything. I like it to be very fashionable. I like it to fit me nicely. I like it to be super high quality and just stylish.

[00:21:26] Mark Bowden: Yeah, lovely. So again, notice how I'm going to pick up what's super high quality. You said, and there was a stylish. Okay. So now I can go, I want to give you a really specific answer on this because I want it to be high quality for you. And so at that point, I'm now learning about your hierarchy system and trying to feed back to I'm trying to get in the river with you about that.

[00:21:52] So I don't judge, cause I may have a different value system. I don't, but I may have a D and I, in fact, one of the reasons we might [00:22:00] get on and this interview might go well, is because we share some of the same values. But what I don't want to do is ever let you see that I might not share some of those values cause we won't get on like the moment I say to you, if I said to you Hala. I understand that you think high-quality is important.

[00:22:19] Clothing, but I think for myself and I think for a lot of other people, it isn't really the most important thing at all. I think you can and stylish, I think really just get something at a low price, even if it's going to fall to beds. Yeah. And just keep on, keep moving on and cycling through quickly through clothing.

[00:22:39] Cause then that's right. Can you see how your brain is going? Ah, no Mark. No, we've got it wrong. Thank you. You got it all wrong. Okay. And often, it's the value system that causes people to have argument and the value system that causes people to get on. And so I can purposely interview you for your [00:23:00] value system.

[00:23:00] Start to feed that back to you so we can get on better. Why would I want to get on better with you? The answer to that is why not? Why shouldn't, we try and get on better than get on worse it's and if I can get on better on purpose, why wouldn't I just do it on purpose? There's a lot of people out there that might go, Hey, look, man, you're either going to get on, or you're not going to get on and you should be authentic.

[00:23:26] And I go, no, I, I can get on purpose with people. I can try and get on with people who I instantly go. I think I'm going to get on with them and I can purposely try and get along with them better because that stops me missing great opportunities. I would say.

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[00:27:00] Yeah, I think it just helps accelerate a relationship. And if it's not going to work out, you get the idea.

[00:27:06] Sooner than later you figure out that it's not going to work out.

[00:27:08] Mark Bowden: Because there might be values that you start signaling, which I go with the best will in the world. I'm not going to join in with that. I'm just not gonna do it. Either, because in my, when you going to watch your gut feeling on values, because that's about comfort level.

[00:27:25] Yeah. No. Okay. Your gut feeling about a value system can be about comfort level. Not that it's a bad value system, it's just, I'm not used to that value system. There are values that people can inform you of that cognitively you would go. I understand the history of that value. I understand the ramifications of that value and actually I'm opposed to that value in not in a gut instinct way in a cognitive way.

[00:27:52] I, it should not be valued. I will not join in on that. And then I could tell you immediately, I could say Hala, this just, isn't gonna work for me. Thanks for your [00:28:00] time. But I think we should leave. That I move on. So we could accelerate a breakup faster, and also we could accelerate getting on with each other faster as well.

[00:28:15] Hala Taha: Let me just repeat this back to you and make sure that I understand it. When somebody is talking and you're trying to figure out their values, you can ask them questions about basically anything and start to pick up on the words, that they emphasize and then use those words and conversations to show them that you align with their values.

[00:28:33] Mark Bowden: Yeah. So you go in the questioning, you need to be a little bit specific and when you use it, it'll be specific. So you can go really deep with them on what for you is most important about. So you're looking for some kind of questioning, that includes the idea of them delivering to you, their hierarchy.

[00:28:55] What is most important? Because there are so many important things on the planet for them, [00:29:00] what you want is the most important thing or you could go, what are you most. So if I want to find that value part of that value system, I might go. So they might go in small talk, I might say, what'd you do at the weekend?

[00:29:12] They might go, Hey, I was hanging out with my family. Oh, great. Now, what do you most enjoy about hanging out with your family? So the moment you do that, you're going to get their hierarchy system around being with family. Now, the presumption here is that values 10 deeper values tend to go across all their behavior.

[00:29:33] So what is within their value system for hanging out in their family. Might be in that is most likely in their value system for who they do business with how they choose something. They buy how they do a whole bunch of stuff. The value system will be fairly consistent if you can get specific and deep enough with that.

[00:29:55] So you want a question that will elicit. The most [00:30:00] valuable, the most important, the most interesting. They're talking about a subject and you guys, I'm just curious, what's most interesting for you about that subject? And again, it's that idea of the most that will elicit some words of real value.

[00:30:17] I hope that makes sense.

[00:30:18] Hala Taha: But then how do you go and use that then? So you figure out their value. How do you go and use that to then influence them? What is your best tactics there?

[00:30:27] Mark Bowden: First of all, you show acceptance, when they're saying those words and there's lots of good nonverbal ways of showing acceptance.

[00:30:33] I will give them good eye contact. I'll gently smile. I'll be nodding my head. I'll even make little noises like oh yeah. And give them positive noises, when they're saying those words. Okay. And then I'll try and include some of those words or ideas. When I'm talking to them again, I'm not trying to do it.

[00:30:56] I've been quite bold with you cause we're trying to demonstrate. [00:31:00] This. Okay. But it's usually going to be so subtle. They just aren't going to notice. And even if they did notice, it's too nice for them to get upset about it. It's just too. Cause you can even tell somebody, what you're doing and part of the brain takes it in.

[00:31:19] And part of the brain just goes, I don't care if I'm being influenced and persuaded here. It just feels too good. It's just too nice being accepted. I'm run by this idea that the moment we were born, really, what we're looking for is acceptance because unless we get accepted, our chances of survival are so slow.

[00:31:39] Yeah, so we, so acceptance is massively important and we've got this radar going on all the time, going, am I getting accepted? Am I part of a group here? Let's just keep checking that out and gravitating towards the people who will accept me. So I hope that hope. That makes sense.

[00:31:56] Hala Taha: Yeah, it's it does. And it's super powerful stuff.

[00:31:58] I love it. So [00:32:00] let's talk about baselines, because I know that establishing baselines is really important and I'd love to understand the difference between traits and states and moods.

[00:32:10] Mark Bowden: Yeah. Okay. So look, we could say about you Hala, that we could see, certain traits about you. So there would be a trait, there's that let's look at your speech patterns and there's some traits in your speech patterns or accent that kind of suggests to me, you from near New York somewhere, or is that right?

[00:32:34] Okay. New Jersey. I thought so. I thought so because there's some traits in your speech that tell me because of how sometimes you're dropping some sounds, which gives it a really lovely feel to it. That instantly makes me go, ah, that's I think that's New Jersey and that would be a trait, but that's not a mood that you're in and that doesn't, that trait isn't probably going to change with [00:33:00] your mood.

[00:33:00] You're still going to have that same dropping of some parts of a word, whether you're happy or sad or angry or lonely or whatever it might be. So that's the trait and we could, baseline that and go, okay, if that changes now, if that changes, wow, what's gone on here. What's gone on here. If you start to include, some of those starts and ends of words that as a trait, you miss out on, that for me, I would go, what's going on here?

[00:33:36] Why is that happening? That's unusual.

[00:33:38] Hala Taha: I may be more serious or mad or something like that.

[00:33:42] Mark Bowden: Okay. So you just gave me a clue there. You've gone. Hey mark. If I start being a little more proper, I'm probably serious now, or I'm getting angry. Yeah. And okay. That's worth [00:34:00] me knowing and look in our conversation, you just gave me the clue. That now that's not going to be the case every time.

[00:34:06] Okay. So there are no definites in this, but it's a good clue. All we're ever trying to do is get closer to the truth. Okay. We're trying to get more accurate and away from less accurate. Okay. So that's good to know, about you. Now. Look, my, what I sense from you at the moment in your baseline, because you're working at the moment and this is your work, and my guess is you're good at this because you have, you're able to produce this characteristic and it's relatively easy for you is your upbeat you're buoyant.

[00:34:37] You're positive in a situation, where you don't know what I'm going to say next, you have, so you're managing. Quite a stressful situation here, but you're doing it at quite a buoyant level here. So you're creating, it's easy for you to create this mood of positivity. Okay. And, because we're together for, let's just [00:35:00] say around about an hour, my guess is you can sustain, that mood for an hour or more.

[00:35:06] In fact, you probably can go a whole day and sustain that kind of mood. So that's a mood moods. We can create a mood or we can have a mood come upon us. Like a weather system, like a dark cloud or a sunny day, and they can sustain a moods, can sustain like the weather for many hours sometimes.

[00:35:30] Days sometimes, more than a day, but if it's going into days and days, then we start to think about what's really going on here. Why is, why are they in that weather pattern for so long? Why isn't the weather changed for them? And then at that point we might go, okay, there's some kind of affective disorder here.

[00:35:50] There might be, just to pick out a couple of things, there might be mania or there might be depression, it's always, it's just such a big sunny day, all the time. Hala, if I didn't [00:36:00] notice about you outside of this, that you weren't able to like, shut down and go, okay, I'm done with that.

[00:36:07] Now I'm going to have a bit of a rest. That might indicate something of where you can't lose this level of positivity all the time. And how's that going to function? Cause sometimes human beings need to be negative about stuff. It's really important to go with that and work. I don't like that, so look, there's that there's mood. And now their states, so states people can move and transition between and they can be quite heightened states. So you could have a state of an anxiety, but I would hope, that your state of anxiety really heightened, like a really heightened state. I would hope it wouldn't last for more than about 10 minutes, because if you get a heightened state of anxiety for more than 10 minutes, that's real stress on your body.

[00:36:54] So I would be, I don't mind you being a bit worried for 10 minutes, about something. And then you brain works it out or [00:37:00] we're able to talk about it and go, Hey, what are you worried about? And then it subsides. But if it keeps on going at that high level, yeah. Then that could be, it's just a lot of stress on you on your body.

[00:37:10] So states often can't last at a heightened level for emotional states for more than a 10 minutes. There's just too much pressure on the body. I hope that answered your question.

[00:37:24] Hala Taha: That does. And so I guess the main reason why I wanted you to cover that is because I want people to understand, that you do need to understand people's baselines, so that you can see if their actions and behaviors actually mean something or not.

[00:37:38] Because if they're always like this and they're always like this, and it doesn't matter, it's not because you're boring. Or let's say if somebody just talks really has, is really slow in the way that they talk or something along those lines, it might not mean that you're boring or they're uninterested.

[00:37:54] It could just be that's the way that they are. So you need to realize how they are. So you can understand, if [00:38:00] what they do is meaningful or not in terms of their behavior. Correct?

[00:38:03] Mark Bowden: Yeah, absolutely. So when we're trying to look at behavior and trying to understand somebody, I think the main thing that we're looking for.

[00:38:11] Is notable change. That's the thing. And if we don't know the baseline, it's very hard to work out what a notable change would be. You start to have having to bunch people together and go people are generally like this. And so this is a deviation from the norm of people generally. That might get you somewhat closer to the truth, but it's not as good as being able to go.

[00:38:37] I've looked at this person's behavior under other circumstances, similar circumstances, I've got a baseline. And so now we can look at significant deviation from that baseline. It's just like a doctor should a good doctor should do. If you come in with a symptom. Yeah. And you go this is now hurting or this now troubles me.

[00:38:58] One of the things that doctors should [00:39:00] be doing, is what's changed. What are you doing differently? Because you didn't, you weren't in here last week or the week before that, or you haven't been in for a whole year. Or three years, it's you've never told me about this before.

[00:39:12] What's going on. They're going to look at your symptom and go, what is the root cause? The tray, hopefully trying to look, not solve the symptom, but deal with the root cause of it. And if you won't change your root cause. You come in with a bad elbow and they go what's been happening. It's I've just, it's the tennis tournament.

[00:39:32] So I get it. It's, can you stop this hurting? It's yeah, can you stop playing tennis? Because that's a sport. And with sport, if you're competitive, you will have injury. It's one of the things your other competitors are hoping for is that you get injured. You're hoping that they get injured.

[00:39:48] Okay. It's one of the things. Yeah. You're hoping to be a better player and you're hoping that their body can't take, that level for as long as you can, so their body gives out. So then the doctor can go, okay I [00:40:00] can give you a painkiller but if you don't stop playing tennis or would learn to play it differently, if you don't change your behavior, there's not much I can do the root cause I can't stop the root cause only.

[00:40:11] Hala Taha: Again, I hope that makes sense to you. And it does make sense. So let's pivot. Let's talk about first impressions and I'm going to tell you something that's personal to me use this time to my advantage. So I run a very successful company. I have 68 employees. I run a marketing and podcasts agency. I have a number one podcast.

[00:40:29] When I meet new people, I feel like I don't get respect until I tell them what I've accomplished. And most people see me. I'm very feminine. I'm, Petite's, I'm nice. I'm friendly. And I don't want to change that about myself. I don't want to change any of those things. I feel like it also works to my advantage.

[00:40:50] And I'm wondering, how do I come across as powerful and a demanding of respect without having to say Hey, this is everything I've [00:41:00] accomplished, even though you probably think I work at the mall or something when you see.

[00:41:03] Mark Bowden: Okay. Look that their brain is the best guesstimate. Okay. And what it's doing is seeing the visual impact that you have, and the brain is going, what is my best guess as to how I should perform around this other human being, how I should, where do I rank with them?

[00:41:26] Am I ranked above or below? What do you think our relationship will be? Will we get on with each other? And so the brain starts doing a whole bunch of best guesses around this. Now look, you are not a new or not isolated. You're not just a human being. You're a human. In the world around a whole bunch of culture in a certain period of time.

[00:41:50] And so is that other human beings. So they're doing their best guests around that. Not one of the things you could always do, and this won't [00:42:00] work necessarily every time for you, but sending people information ahead of time. And I know this is not you just meeting somebody, but sending people information ahead of time helps them evaluate.

[00:42:12] At the far end of the spectrum, I could, you, if it were me, and I was getting the same kind of response. And remember at one point. I was young like you, I wasn't, I was taller than you. I've always been taller than you, but I had hair as long as yours, which was odd for some of the worlds that I worked in.

[00:42:35] And so yes, some people who, the information about me had got to them earlier, would understand who they were dealing with and some just wouldn't. And so they'd make mistakes and what, and so partly I had to go that's just going to happen because I'm not showing up as their expectation of what I really am.

[00:42:57] My outward presentation is [00:43:00] not expected, and so it's a surprise to them and they get really, you'd seen moments of confusion, oh, it's oh, you're the guy. Oh, sorry. Oh, I thought you were something else, so sending them the information ahead of time. Here's who you're getting.

[00:43:13] Okay. And then I guess, look, let me ask you this. Hala. Who do you want people to know that you are?

[00:43:20] Hala Taha: I guess it's just funny. Cause I just know, I'm really good at reading people. And I have a great online brand. So anybody who finds me online, they don't treat me like that. It's the people that I meet like yesterday I was at a barbecue.

[00:43:32] I met a bunch of strangers and when I'm like, oh yeah, I run a company. I have 68 employees. They're like really? Oh, wow. You know what I like that's how they act oh wow. And then they feel oh I can tell they're thinking oh, I thought I was more successful than you, but I could tell that's like the attitude and then cheat and then things changed.

[00:43:51] And they're really interested in what I do. And they're really interested in me. So it's just funny to, it's just funny. And I know that, when I know myself, so in [00:44:00] those situations, I'm always like, oh, what are you? Cause I want to tell them what I do, because I want quickly to them to realize that Hey, like, I'm not just a cute girl.

[00:44:10] Here for no reason or, I want them to know right away, so that they treat me with respect and they treat me how I deserve to be treated.

[00:44:17] Mark Bowden: So there is an element of this. There is another way that we could go with this, which is to say you are a potentially a brilliant surprise for people.

[00:44:27] There's something about you that could show up at a barbecue and have that. Cause it sounds from your description that very quick, that you are not afraid or ashamed or quiet about going. Here's who you got here. I do this and really I'm successful at this. And as you said, and they very quickly went well, go, oh wow.

[00:44:48] And they changed their behavior around you. They changed their assessment. So I questioned this. What is more interesting, that they would look across the room [00:45:00] and go. Oh, yeah, there's a CEO of a very successful company, young CEO, very successful company. I don't think I'll talk to that person.

[00:45:08] It doesn't really fit in with me. I'll do something else. And they were either for you or against you immediately, or actually they engage with you. They get this wonderful moment of surprise. They're good enough human beings that they can reestablish, their idea of you and they walk away from that going, you know what?

[00:45:28] The world is a very surprising place in the world. The world is a really intriguing I'm. Barbecue is interesting because you meet these people, who you never expect are going to be what they are, because look, the alternative is you wear a cap that says important CEO.

[00:45:50] Hala Taha: I feel like maybe if I wore a suit and I didn't wear makeup and I didn't do, but it's that's not me.

[00:45:55] So I guess I got to just be me. And it is what it is.

[00:45:57] Mark Bowden: I think that clearly one of the great things [00:46:00] about you is that you are wonderfully surprised. So the world right now in a decade's time or 20 years time, or maybe even next year, people will look across the room at somebody like you and go, oh yeah.

[00:46:14] CEO of a company, undoubtedly easy to say, easy to say. And now you won't be a surprise to people anymore.

[00:46:24] Hala Taha: Let me ask you this as a woman, I'm sure there's other women listening in. How do you take up space? I know that's really important. How do you take up space and be more powerful or seem more powerful, than you are as a woman?

[00:46:38] Mark Bowden: Yeah, absolutely. So look, let me introduce you to the kind of the three circles that your gestures can be in. Okay. So there's what I call first circle, which is where something on your hands or your arms is always touching your body. So here I am in first circle. Okay. Now I'm going to go to second circle, which means that [00:47:00] there's always space between my body and my limbs.

[00:47:05] Okay. There's always space there. Now does one of me see, I'm going to gesture in the same plane. So Simon, at Naval height here, it's a very confident plane and I'm in second circle here, or I'm going to gesture in that same plane and I'm in first circle right now, because I've got no gap between here and here now.

[00:47:27] Hala Taha: Yeah. His arms folded like directly over his stomach.

[00:47:29] Mark Bowden: And then second circle. There's a gap between my hands and my body and even my elbows and my body. And then, so hopefully you're seeing that one seems to have more power and more authority. The one that's in second circle. Okay.

[00:47:43] Now I'm going to go to third circle and you'll notice my hands leave the frame. Now third circle is the arms lockout. This you'll often only see at big parties or rock and roll events or, big performances. [00:48:00] Okay. Now again, do you feel and see the power that's in this? What I would suggest you do is you second circle, just that little bit more.

[00:48:10] Okay. That's all second circle. Just that little bit more because you will use up more territory. And our instinct is that something, that uses up territory has more power. If it takes more space, it has more power. It has more power. We need to be careful around it. We need to respect it. We should not trouble it in in any way, we should be good to it.

[00:48:36] So now you've got to be careful with this because you don't want it. Other people's space. Unless you really want to. Okay. And you really there's some upside and downside to that. There's no bad body language, by the way, there's just results that you wanted or didn't want, I've got no judgment system, don't do this and don't do that.

[00:48:52] All I've got is if you want to achieve this result, the, this is the route to go down, but there's some windows of

[00:49:00] opportunity there. So if we were together, live in the same space and I'm going into third circle, and I'm going into your space into your personal space with that, you're going to get upset.

[00:49:13] I'm going to try. Yeah. I'm going to trigger your fight and flight system with that, which either means you're going to start getting aggressive with me or you'll start getting passive with me or something in between. And that might not be the relationship that I was looking for. Or maybe I was, there's no bad body language.

[00:49:31] There's just results that you wanted, or didn't want if I want the result of triggering you into aggression then yeah. I might want to go into third circle in your personal space. That will certainly cause you, certain people to get more aggressive. Anyway,

[00:49:45] Hala Taha: I love this advice. Yeah, it does.

[00:49:46] It does. I love that advice of second circle. I'm definitely going to try to use that more often. Okay. So let's talk about dating. There's lots of people, including myself. I got out of a ten-year relationship during COVID. A lot of people [00:50:00] broke up with their significant others. A lot of people are getting back into dating.

[00:50:04] So I thought that we could do a quick fire segment. I'll rattle off a phase of dating and give me your one minute, best piece of advice for each phase. Okay. Quickfire. It's going to be fun. All right. So first phase setting up a dating profile. What do we do?

[00:50:22] Mark Bowden: Yeah. Interesting. Look, think about who you want to be seen as, okay.

[00:50:28] This is, you are projecting some qualities. What are the qualities you want to be seen as having and what qualities might you be looking for as well? Okay. So be really clear about, here's who I want to project that I am. Okay. And that's okay. You're trying to show the best of you. Okay.

[00:50:52] We all understand that everybody's in the same thing, so don't be afraid to show the best of you and to have

[00:51:00] that ideal in your head of here's the best of me. I want you to see. Okay. And be really clear in the visual representation of that and the word representation of that, but also be really clear about what it is that you want.

[00:51:17] Looking for what are the qualities. That you're looking for as well? Because, if you're not projecting some of those qualities, it might be hard for people to pick up on those where, in, in the level of dating that is looking for somebody, to spend a significant relationship with, you're looking first of all for actually very similar qualities.

[00:51:41] And that's what we call the infatuation stage. If you want to, first of all, get into the infatuation stage, you've got to be showing some similarity of qualities and some ability to get on with others. Okay. That stage will pass. Okay. And then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happens.

[00:51:58] But think about the qualities you [00:52:00] want to project, think about the qualities that you're looking for. And can you encapsulate, some of that into your profile.

[00:52:07] Hala Taha: Now tricks in terms of the pictures, that we should choose.

[00:52:11] Mark Bowden: Again, it's what are you, what effect are you trying to have? Okay. And if you can think about that effect and go and find photographs of people who you think are having that effect and mirror those photographs.

[00:52:27] Yeah. That's probably a good one. To go is some people will have already been able to have that effect on you. How can you copy that to have that same effect? So again, there's no good or bad photographs. There's just results that you wanted or didn't want.

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[00:54:09] And I would say you want to look like yourself because nothing's worse than going on a date. And the person doesn't even look like their photos or it doesn't represent what their photos said. So I think you do want to have some level of, it could be your best photos, but I think some level of accuracy.

[00:54:23] And then for me, if you're not writing anything about yourself on your profile, you are swiped away, so to speak.

[00:54:31] Mark Bowden: So here's what you're trying to avoid. My accuracy is what you're speaking to. There is disappointment. If somebody shows up at the day and it's some in their mind, somebody different showed up.

[00:54:43] There's always an element of discipline. Where they go. That's not what was on the menu. Yeah. And that might be an awful metaphor to use, but ultimately that's the way the brain works. It saw a menu, it says here's the opportunity. Okay. And it goes, [00:55:00] okay, swipe on that because that, I want to take that opportunity.

[00:55:04] And then the reality shows up and the reality is so different from what was promised. That there's a moment of disappointment.

[00:55:14] Hala Taha: So next phase preparing for your date.

[00:55:16] Mark Bowden: Again, don't feel bad about putting your best foot forward. Yeah. And I know everybody's going to want to do that, but there is a, there's an idea there of, you've got to show a whole kind of reality around stuff.

[00:55:31] Social media is so pervasive and we may be able to get into so many parts of people's lives that, people can always search and find the rounder you okay. They can always find, many different facets to you. Think would be really clear about, what's the facet of me that I really want to show up to this particular date.

[00:55:56] Who do I want to project myself as that is. [00:56:00] I'm going to make up a version of me. That's what part of you, do you most want to push forward at this particular date? Because it's going to be good for you. It's going to be fun for you. It might well be attractive, you think for them because you're trying to get the best for yourself.

[00:56:17] Okay. And so if you're trying to get the best for yourself, push something forward that you feel is some of the best of you, for this particular date, which isn't everything. If this first one goes well, okay. Over time, they'll see more of you more facets, but trying to think. How many different facets of myself should I show at this date?

[00:56:40] It's I make it easier for yourself. What is the one thing I really want to get across about myself at this date.

[00:56:46] Hala Taha: What about looking into the other person? Should you be Googling the other person and finding out about them studying up on them as well.

[00:56:54] Mark Bowden: Why not. I Google the plumber. And they're just coming to fix like a blockage in the [00:57:00] tap.

[00:57:00] They're just changing a washer. So you're going out with somebody to go, Hey, here's an opportunity. Why wouldn't you? I'm not saying you have to, but why wouldn't you. If I Google the plumber, why wouldn't you Google the person, who you're going on a date with? I'm not saying you don't have to, but if people think that's the wrong thing to do.

[00:57:23] That's a bit weird. I don't think it's very weird. At all, we had some people round to start lopping off branches of trees around our property. It's I really researched them, found out what do other people say about them and they good, what's what you know. Okay. Let me go on to their personal profile and see it.

[00:57:42] Didn't take very long and it soon gave me a picture of, I feel pretty confident this, I think I've made the right decision, to get this person around. Okay. That's somebody just cutting branches off the tree. Okay. So look I got no problem with it.

[00:58:00]

[00:58:00] Hala Taha: Okay. So how about the first initial meeting and conversation?

[00:58:04] What's your best advice for date?

[00:58:06] Mark Bowden: So be interested. That's the main thing be interested, be inquisitive, inquire. See whether they reciprocate. Are you inquisitive about them? Are they inquisitive about you? Does it seem to go only one way? That's always interesting, because the phone goes both ways.

[00:58:28] Social is both ways. And if I'm just pushing my information at you and at no point do I go, so hang on. I've been talking a long time. What, tell me about you. I'm intrigued about you. I'm curious about you now. If that doesn't happen. That's interesting. Tell you something in behavior.

[00:58:49] One of the things that we sometimes say, is once there's a pattern and if it doesn't, if it's, if they're not inquisitive, once they maybe are never going to be inquisitive [00:59:00] around.

[00:59:01] Hala Taha: A big red flag. Okay. So my last phase here is making the first move. And I think I've been going on a lot of dates and some guys have really been getting this wrong. Where they go in for a guest and I'm like no, what are you talking about?

[00:59:15] This didn't go that well. So how can you, like, how can you signal that it's not going well? Or how can somebody tell that it's not going or tell that it is going well?

[00:59:26] Mark Bowden: Look, if I were to pick one factor, okay. If I were to pick one factor, is that when people are getting on really well, they will close distance.

[00:59:36] And in whatever human relationship it is, they will close distance because there's a comfort level. Okay. If we were out together, whether it was social or business, okay. I would be looking for, are we going into spaces which have space and yet we're closing distance, like your coming towards me or I'm coming towards you.

[00:59:59] [01:00:00] And you're not backing off further. If we started off in the middle of the bar and I keep moving forward and by the end of it, where all the other side of it. Okay this isn't, now the key around this is often you can end up going with somebody, into an environment with a lot of people in where closed space is going to be the normal.

[01:00:18] It's rather taking them to an elevator and going, oh, I think this is going well. It's yeah, but you were in an elevator, so that's the norm in a, in an elevator. So what happens when you move into a bigger space? Are they still closing distance on you? Look, there are a whole bunch of factors, but if you are not feeling closing of space yeah.

[01:00:43] Then there's more to be done. More time, more, more conversation, more alignment.

[01:00:53] Hala Taha: It is. Okay. So let's talk about your perspective of the need to be inauthentic authentic. We've got this whole, [01:01:00] there's a whole movement about authenticity. You've gotta be authentic.

[01:01:04] Being authentic is the way to be it's the moral high ground in authenticity is fake. Shouldn't fake it till you make it. I know you think this is a whole crack a BS. So tell us about that.

[01:01:15] Mark Bowden: Yes. It is from my point of view, simply because of the element that you put in there, which is the moral high ground.

[01:01:22] Once people start speaking about something with a Mo morality attached to it, then it starts in my mind, it starts to get quasi religious. And so I've got to know. So where in some kind of philosophy, does it, let me know what authentic would look like and what inauthentic would look like? How would I tell, how would I know what I'm doing?

[01:01:48] Because if you look at religions which deal with morality, they will be really quite specific. We can argue this, where they're being specific. We can go, I think that's the wrong way to go on that. And that's the great thing about religion. It

[01:02:00] usually has a very strong rule book, that you can go to and go look, it says, here you do it like this.

[01:02:06] If you don't do it like that, it's immoral. If you do it like this it's moral. Okay. So the moment people start attaching morality to an idea like authenticity, which is up for grabs. What does that look like for you? How is that? It looks like whatever I want it. Okay, then it's very difficult for us to align on our morality.

[01:02:26] If you're gonna make it moral, like how are we going to get on a wrap around this? Oh, and here's, what's going to happen. If you don't look to me, like you're being authentic, I will judge you as immoral. I will authenticity shame you. And I might not do it to your face, but I'm probably going to do it to other people around, around you and I'm going to go.

[01:02:48] Yeah. But I don't think she was being authentic. It's like, how would you know, how would anybody know, like on what criteria are you making that moral judgment with other human [01:03:00] beings? So that's my big worry about it. Is it's a nebulous term. It has no people took it out of its original criteria, which young formed around the idea of authenticity, that it was taken outside of that.

[01:03:16] I in my mind, but by very specific quasi religious group, who then coined the term universally and it started to get picked up. And then it got, went into a common, modern language of how to proport yourself, how to go about the world. It became a philosophy with no clarity to it and a moral judgment system around it.

[01:03:45] Just very dangerous as far as I'm concerned.

[01:03:48] Hala Taha: When it comes to human behavior and how you present yourself. You need to be okay with getting out of your comfort zone. And for example, like we were talking about the first impressions and meaning [01:04:00] me needing to start being more in second circle to take up space.

[01:04:03] If I do that, does that mean I'm fake? No, it means that I'm stepping out of my comfort zone and I'm trying to portray who I am, because you're judging me because I haven't been doing those actions or, you know what I mean? So it's trying to be the best version of yourself.

[01:04:20] Mark Bowden: Exactly. You're living on purpose.

[01:04:23] If it were not authentically part of you, you physically wouldn't be able to do. You just go, I can't actually maybe it would still just feel like that. I go, I know it feels like you can't go into second circle, but let's work together on getting more comfortable or dealing with the discomfort of these behaviors because they are you, they are, you, it's just, you're not used to them.

[01:04:48] And so therefore they feel less comfortable, but they will more likely get you the results that you want. This is an Hala. Have you got where you are [01:05:00] today? Which is an excellent level, a level of excellence that you keep on pushing forward on. Have you got there by being wholly comfortable all the time?

[01:05:09] Or were there moments.

[01:05:10] Hala Taha: I'm always uncomfortable always. But I get more comfortable and more every time you do it once, then the next time it's second nature, you get used to it and more.

[01:05:20] Mark Bowden: So some people might go, so we get that. Yeah. And I totally understand that, but some people in the moral authenticity realm would go, but why don't you just show us that discomfort?

[01:05:32] So what's your reasoning for not showing us that inner discomfort, when you are pushing your boundaries?

[01:05:42] Hala Taha: Because I want to portray. Who I want to be, even if I'm not that yet.

[01:05:46] Mark Bowden: So you're wanting to portray who you want to be, even if you're not that yet, for me, that sense that's about authorship.

[01:05:53] I want to write this story that isn't necessarily, absolutely true right now. I want to write [01:06:00] the story. That for me is authenticity. When you write your story on purpose. Okay. That's that for me is what authenticity is really about. I'm writing this story on purpose and like any writer, any really good writer, it's really uncomfortable.

[01:06:20] Okay. All of them will go where you go, how do you write that book? It's it really hurt. I, it was really hard work to come up with that idea, to make something that wasn't fully formed into something fully formed that communicates, to other people and makes their lives better. That was really tough work.

[01:06:38] And it's the same as creating an authorizing and being more authentic version of you. It's not about comfort. It's about pushing through and managing the discomfort of being something more than the world would have you be. If you were just comfortable.

[01:06:57] Hala Taha: So my last question to you before we [01:07:00] start to wind down, because I know we're way over time and thank you so much for your time. Is you did mention storytelling and I heard you in an interview and you said something really powerful.

[01:07:09] You said that. The truth and the facts are not the same. And I really resonated with this because I think I'm a great storyteller, especially when I go on these podcasts interviews. And sometimes I'll embellish stories, not because I want to lie, but because I'm trying to get the emphasis of the story across and connect with the audience.

[01:07:30] So talk to us about why facts and the truth are actually not the same and what a great storyteller is.

[01:07:38] Mark Bowden: Yeah. So my best friend once told me do not let the cold dead hand of reason get in the way of a good story. So we got to know the difference between story and truth and fact. So fact is a discernible thing that you need more than three [01:08:00] people to have something sensible.

[01:08:01] They can literally sense it and they can all collaborate to go. We sense the same thing. Therefore it is factually accurate. Again, factually accurate, not true factually accurate. Now truth is way more complex, so we can have some factually accurate things. That we can create a truth from as well, which means the truth will communicate, to even more people and we'll have even more value facts don't necessarily have much value to some people it's who cares?

[01:08:38] It's a fact who cares. Okay. Truth tends to hit something innate about us that we go, yeah. That's how the world is. And so there will be the idea of your truth. It's like that's the way I see it. That's my truth. It's okay, I get it. It doesn't mean it's factually accurate at all. Don't like, don't mix the two things up.

[01:08:58] Don't get them confused. I'm [01:09:00] totally happy for you to go look. That's the truth as I see it. Okay. But you can't do that's the fact that as I see it. Will who else sees that fact? Can we, if you can get me more than three people, now we're somewhat getting towards a fact which isn't necessarily the truth.

[01:09:16] And when it comes to good storytelling, exaggeration, and repetition and rhythm, and, humanity, all elements in a story that can help people understand the truth of it. But facts don't need to be any part of that. They don't need to be, they could be, but they don't have to be, which means you've got to be careful as somebody who, if you're into behavior and you like to read body language and you like to look for deceit and exaggeration is you'll become a really annoying person.

[01:09:50] If you keep interrupting people's stories and going well, that's not fact. Sorry. It doesn't well, no, obviously not. They're not being factual right now. They're [01:10:00] telling you a story in order to have an effect and tell you the truth about the world that they see. And yes, they might use the word fact, but they probably don't have one.

[01:10:11] And now you've got to decide whether you go sorry that, but that isn't a fact or whether you just let them tell the story, that it's factual. Okay. And how important it is. Is it that you take them up that their facts aren't facts. Okay. You, again, you've got to, you've got to understand your value system.

[01:10:30] What facts do you value most, that you will never let be corrupted and all other facts. Doesn't matter, just whatever. Anyway, I hope that makes that clarified.

[01:10:44] Hala Taha: Makes sense. So the last question I ask, all my guests on Young And Profiting Podcast is what is your secret to profiting in life?

[01:10:52] Mark Bowden: Wow. That's a super question.

[01:10:54] Just making a clear choice. Just trying to concentrate on one [01:11:00] thing. Okay. Again, one of my, one of my greatest teachers ever, and he got it from his teacher, as well said, make a choice, make it bigger, keep it tidy, make a choice, make it bigger, keep it tidy. So decide on what it is. Okay. Now understand your decision on what it is not big enough.

[01:11:19] They're never going to be able to see it. Okay humane you've gone too small, make that bigger now. Okay. So everybody can see it. And it's really clear for you. Okay. Now what's going to happen is you're going to go, oh. But if I added a bit of this and a bit of that, and a bit of the other more people would like it and it would be prettier and nicer and more amazing or more delicate, or, just might not look so bold and get attached so much, keep it tidy, just make the choice and make it bigger.

[01:11:46] Keep it tidy. Don't add other stuff to it. Because if you get that clarity of communication about what it is to others and to yourself, you have more chance that [01:12:00] you and other people will get it. Now at the same time, there's a risk to that. By the way, some people will get it more and they won't like it.

[01:12:08] So you're going to get more people who potentially like it cause they can see it and more people who dislike it. So they can't. So I want to just quote another hero of mine. Banksy, the artists Banksy. Who says they either love me or they hate me, or they have no idea who I am. So I think that's that's an important adage.

[01:12:31] Hala Taha: I love that those are great things. And where can our listeners go learn about you and everything that you do.

[01:12:36] Mark Bowden: Yeah, just find me at truthplane.com T R U T H P L A N E. truthplane.com or Google Mark Bowden.

[01:12:45] Hala Taha: Amazing. I'll put all his links in the show notes. Thank you so much, mark.

[01:12:48] This was an awesome conversation. I could talk to you for hours. I feel like we have a whole other sales conversation to have later in the year. I'm just so happy to have you as a friend and a collaborator and thank you again for coming on the

[01:13:00] podcast. It was wonderful. Thank you.

[01:13:02] Mark Bowden: Great to be with you.

[01:13:04] Talk to you in the audience anytime.

[01:13:06] Hala Taha: Thank you. That was one for the bucks. I am so glad that Mark was here to share his thoughts on human behavior and body language. And for those that listened to the show quite often, you know that this is one of my favorite topics. So for me, this was a super interesting conversation.

[01:13:22] Mark taught us the difference between influence and persuasion. Influence means to get into the flow with it's really all about empathy. If you want to influence someone, what you need to do is ask yourself, can they influence me? And am I thinking of their feelings from there? You can move on to persuasive.

[01:13:41] In order to influence or persuade someone. We have to understand their values. I personally value when conversations are specific and when people have strong opinions, I want to go deep rather than shallow. We have to be able to feed into someone's value system, because it helps accelerate our relationship with them.

[01:13:59] It's best [01:14:00] to ask questions that are going to elicit the. And values of a person from there. You can show acceptance by using visual cues like nodding or maintaining eye contact. We also talked about understanding baselines. This is really important. Our traits are things like our speech patterns and our inflection points.

[01:14:18] We all move in and out of various states and our moods can be sustained for many hours or just a short amount of time. You need to understand people's baselines to understand what their behavior means. Some small things that people may do may be more meaningful than we realize. Mark also taught us the best way to take up space and command a room.

[01:14:38] I loved this tip. He talked about the first circle. This is when we're really closing. Our limbs are touching our body. And we're really small. We're not taking up much space in this first circle while in the second circle position, there's a lot of room to gesture. There's a gap between our arms and our bodies.

[01:14:56] We seem more generally open. And then the [01:15:00] third circle that's when we are super open, our arms are locked and spread. We far apart from our bodies, mark suggested using the second circle more often to gain up territory. If we take up more space, we'll have more power. So keep this in mind. Next time you're in a meeting or next time you're in a social setting.

[01:15:17] Try to keep your arms away from your body and be more open and see how people react you. Okay. Mark also said that we should not think of being inauthentic as being a moral being inauthentic is not the same as being a moral. It's counter-intuitive, but when it comes to human behavior, you need to know how to present yourself and that's not wrong just because we want to be the best version of ourselves.

[01:15:40] Doesn't mean we're bad people. Stepping out of ourselves in a social setting, takes courage and it's portraying who we want to be, even if that's not necessarily who we are today. And to me, trying to find that courage is authentic and that's how you grow. If you liked this episode and you want to learn more about human behavior, [01:16:00] go check out number eight, Hacking Human Behavior to Gain Influence with Chase Hughes.

[01:16:05] This is one of my most downloaded episodes and it's a fan favorite. Here's a clip from my episode with Chase back in episode number eight.

[01:16:14] Chase Hughes: A lot of things going on at one time. And it's best to just master one thing at a time, until it moves from the front of your brain, we have to pay attention to it, to the back of your brain towards automatic.

[01:16:25] So like driving was really hard at first until you got good at it. And now you can zone out on your way home from work. So it'll become unconscious, but I'd say the most important thing to being able to read people. And this is a skill that everyone needs. If you're in sales, you are in the human behavior business.

[01:16:45] If you're in business, you deal with human behavior on a regular basis. So being able to see this stuff and really understand what it means is so critical. Even if it's two thirds and not 90% of communication, like a lot [01:17:00] of studies suggest. It's more than half of communication and we almost deliberately.

[01:17:06] So I think once you're able to start seeing behavior, just watching it for its own sake and then learning more about it. The first thing that usually happens to people is that it's really depressing. Because you will see suffering and insecurity and fear and every person that you meet, but in the end, suffering is like the universal law of human beings.

[01:17:29] Everyone is suffering. Everyone's going through something. Everyone is self-conscious, I've never met a non self-conscious person.

[01:17:37] Hala Taha: Again, if you liked this episode, go check out episode number eight, Hacking Human Behavior to Gain Influence with Chase Hughes. Thanks for listening to this episode of Young And Profiting Podcast with Mark Bowden, you guys can find me on Instagram @yapwithhala or LinkedIn, just search for my name.

[01:17:55] It's Hala Taha. Big, thanks to the amazing YAP team as always. I couldn't do this without you [01:18:00] guys and appreciate all your hard work. This is Hala signing off.