Hala Taha: [00:00:00] Ron, welcome to Young and Profiting podcast.

Ron Johnson: I am so excited to be here. Nice to meet you, Hala.

Hala Taha: Nice to meet you as well. Thank you for flying out, being here in person. You've got such incredible experience. Mm-hmm. You've been with Apple, Target, JCPenney, in the C-suite.

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: And you've done such an incredible job transforming these stores, especially Apple and Target.

So I wanna start with Apple.

Ron Johnson: Sure.

Hala Taha: I learned that you convinced Steve Jobs to put in Apple stores before they were even a thing in really expensive malls when Apple only had 4% of the PC market share. Or was it 4%? Did I mess it up? 5% of the- Yeah ... PC market share and four products.

Ron Johnson: Right.

Hala Taha: How is that, how is that not a completely insane idea at the time?

Ron Johnson: Well, most people thought it was insane that Apple- ... was gonna open stores, including a couple of the board members. But I didn't convince Steve. Steve wanted to open stores.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Ron Johnson: [00:01:00] Steve had come back to Apple in 1997, launched that cult hit, the iMac.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Which had rave reviews, even made the cover of Time Magazine.

Hala Taha: Wow.

Ron Johnson: But it didn't change the game for Apple. It sold to the Mac faithful.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And Steve believed, after that experience, that if Apple is gonna win, it had to control the customer experience.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: So it wanted to open stores. So he called me to come out and talk to him about stores.

Hala Taha: Mm, so he poached you from Target.

Ron Johnson: He recruited me from Target. But during that first conversation, interestingly, I said, "So who's the customer? How big can this be?"

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: He said, "Ron, we've got 5% market share." Which it turns out it was 2 or 3, but he said 5. And he said, "If we go after the creative consumer, you know, Apple does a great job with creative apps for pros."

Mm-hmm. "We have high market share." Mm-hmm. "In the marketing departments, the creative departments, but not as much in the business side. I think we can double our market share- Mm ... and get to [00:02:00] 10%." And later he told me the board wasn't supportive. And I said, "Well, you know, the board might be right, if all you want to do is double your market share."

Because the reality, Dell's done pretty well selling computers over the internet.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And Gateway selling PCs is closing its stores.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: So maybe the board is right.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And I said, "But I don't know why you wanna sell to the creative pro only." And I had come from Minneapolis, where, where I was living, working with Target.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And in Minneapolis, very few p- people had computers.

Hala Taha: Mm. And

Ron Johnson: it turns out only 50% of American households had a computer.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And I said, "You think you've lost the PC war to Microsoft. There's half the market to go."

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And I said, "Now if you wanna go after everybody, that'd be interesting." And I had that idea because I had just brought design to Target-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm

Ron Johnson: which became design for all, and people loved it.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And, uh, once I told Steve that, he got real excited. And he said, [00:03:00] "No, I could do that, but where would we put stores?" And I said, "Well, we go where they shop, where people shop." Mm-hmm. "That's the mall."

Hala Taha: And he hated the mall, right?

Ron Johnson: And he goes, "I hate malls."

Hala Taha: Why did

Ron Johnson: he hate them?

He hate- he said, "They're filled with crappy stores, and they're crowded."

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: And I think for him it was a little bit back to Steve had become a celebrity-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: at age 24 when he launched the personal computer-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: and founded Apple and s- Pixar, and it was hard for him to be in a public space.

Hala Taha: Yeah, so he didn't do it.

Ron Johnson: And, and, but it was pretty clear. I said, "Look, Steve, you know, if you wanna find your customer, you gotta be more convenient than a remote parking lot where all the computer stores have been located."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Because they're bought every four or five years, so why would you pay for expensive mall traffic was common wisdom.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Um, and the next time I met Steve a couple weeks later-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: the first thing he said to me is, "Ron, I'm gonna offer you the job." I thought, "Wow, that's pretty [00:04:00] good." Yeah. You know, one discussion.

Hala Taha: Uh-huh.

Ron Johnson: But I said... he said, "But you're right about malls. We should put stores in malls."

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: Uh, so I didn't really have to convince him.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: It was pretty obvious once we decided we're going after everybody, that the only way to do that would be in a mall.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: But Steve said to me, he goes, "I realized I might not be able to get someone to get in their car and drive 10 miles to check out a Mac."

Hala Taha: Hmm. "

Ron Johnson: But I could get them to get, walk 10 feet out of their way."

Hala Taha: Yeah. "

Ron Johnson: And that's all we have to do in a mall." Mm-hmm. And he was right.

Hala Taha: Yeah. It's, it's so interesting that there was some initial pushback, but he, he said that he was gonna give you a billion dollars basically to build these stores. Is that right?

Ron Johnson: Yeah. What he said is... Yeah, so Steve offered me the job. I came out two weeks l- later with my wife, Karen, to kinda just talk to him one more time.

He took me to a MacWorld. Mm-hmm. Super exciting. You see just how interesting Apple is as a company, how strong [00:05:00] Steve is as a leader. Mm-hmm. Um, and we went and toured Stanford Shopping Center, and at the end he said, "So any other objections?" I said, "Steve, you said the board has approved a test, that we should open four stores and see how it goes."

I said, "Unfortunately, I won't come for a test."

Hala Taha: Hmm. Not gonna change your whole life just, just for

Ron Johnson: a test. Well, I said, "I'm not gonna give up the career I have at Target for a test, but more importantly, I won't be able to recruit any A players to come for a test. If you believe in something, you need to be all in."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Well, that's Steve's nature. He's always been all in. Everything he's done, he's been all in.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And he quickly just looked at me, and he said, "Ron, we have $4 billion in the bank. If I could write a check for a billion dollars today and

have 100 stores, I'd be happy." Well, I knew it wouldn't cost $100 million to build out 100 stores.

Hala Taha: Yeah, 100 billion. You

Ron Johnson: know? S- or 100 [00:06:00] billion, I'm sorry. Or 100

Hala Taha: billion,

Ron Johnson: yeah. Um, yeah, 100 million. And so he... Did I say... Oh, yeah.

Hala Taha: No, you were right. No,

Ron Johnson: yeah.

Hala Taha: You were right. I was wrong. I- 100 million.

Ron Johnson: But anyway, he quickly, uh...

And then I said, "Okay, let's go do this."

Hala Taha: Yeah. You

Ron Johnson: know?

Hala Taha: Very cool. So let's talk about some of the principles that you used- Mm-hmm ... uh, when designing these stores. Sure. You really wanted the store to be a place of belonging. Mm-hmm. You really wanted to be h- to be more about relationships than transactions.

Talk to us about what your philosophy was.

Ron Johnson: Yeah, it was... Well, it's pretty obvious. This is 2000. When we're talking about the stores, we're at the height of the dot com bubble. Mm-hmm. It bursts like four months later. We're in the middle of designing stores. But people, there were literally smart people who thought stores were gonna go away.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: People, some people still believe that today-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: even though it couldn't be further from the truth. But when you're designing a store in the midst of the internet, which is taking off, you have to think through, "What could [00:07:00] I do that the internet could never do?"

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: And that's essentially create a place to belong, to deliver an experience.

So we had to design a store that had so many advantages to shopping online that everyone would prefer to come to a store.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And, uh, the beauty is because Apple had such a small product lineup- Four total products.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Computers only, two portables, two desktops. That's it.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: We could present the entire product line in 30 square feet.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: But we built stores that were 6,000 square feet big.

Hala Taha: Wow.

Ron Johnson: And we did that because that was the size, basically, of a great space in the mall.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: That's what the Gap had, and they were, like, the leading specialty store. Mm-hmm. And Steve agreed that how you present yourself-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: has a big impact on how people perceive you.

Hala Taha: And we wanted to be a- It

Ron Johnson: was like

Hala Taha: the dominance of the mall, basically.

Ron Johnson: Yeah, we wanted to be a brand that was like a Gap.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know, 'cause he said, "We're [00:08:00] much bigger than the Gap."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And that enabled us to have the space to create experiences.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: So we devoted very simply, first rule, half goes to new customers, the ones we're trying to attract.

Mm-hmm. That'd be the front of the store, and everyone could try every product. Up until then, you couldn't try products in a physical store.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: They were just things on display.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: We had to connect them to the internet to figure out how to keep them current with software.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know, et cetera, et cetera.

But the half went to the products, and the other half went to owners. Assuming people buy, how do we help them get over, overcome their fear of technology?

Hala Taha: Yeah. '

Ron Johnson: Cause that was the enemy.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: The reason people didn't own computers, they were too complicated. They were scared. They'd buy this and never use it.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: So we put in theaters where you could take classes, and tables where you could get training one-to-one, eventually. Mm. And a genius bar where you could get face-to-face help. So we put in all of these services along with the thing, and the stores became, immediately, [00:09:00] one of the most popular stores in the mall.

Hala Taha: Yeah, and, and when you first launched the stores, you actually had basically, like, designed the stores, and then last minute, you realized that you had designed them wrong.

Ron Johnson: Well, that was the instinct I had, yeah.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: No, Steve and I had spent a long time designing, and Steve had spent a lot of time.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, Steve's obviously a really busy person. Yeah. He's running two companies at the time.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: CEO of Pixar and Apple. You know, leading Apple, and we got this new initiative called retail, and he had come over every Tuesday for four hours in a warehouse to help design the store with me and the team.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Put a lot of energy into it. Steve called me every night the first year at 8:00 for me to get to know him- Mm ... so he could delegate and trust.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: He put a lot of energy into it.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And then one day, I was flying back. I was coming in from Minneapolis, and my wife had just completed another beautiful scrapbook of [00:10:00] my two-year-old son and four-year-old daughter.

Hala Taha: Uh-huh.

Ron Johnson: And it hit me that I live in an analog world. On the weekends-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Ron Johnson: when I'm with my family in Minnesota. But in Cupertino I'm in a digital world where we're inventing all these apps to like get rid of the scrapbook. And I talked to Steve one night on a Thursday and I said, "Steve, have you ever thought about this?

You know, the Mac, if we succeed, it'll be the center of someone's digital life."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, where I am my wife makes, takes pictures. We go to the grocery store, we get the film developed. She cuts them up, puts them in a scrapbook, and it's wonderful.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And I come to Cupertino and we're making digital scrapbooks.

And that's true with movies, that's true with music. And I said, "The Mac's kind of the center of your digital life." And Steve said, "Can you write me an email on that?" And I said, "Sure," and I wrote him a little note the next day. And then Monday he bounces into ET, and I think my conversation's probably crystallizing thoughts he had from [00:11:00] many other conversations, so I'm not taking credit for this.

Mm-hmm. But he walks in, he doesn't sit down like he always does, hardly says good morning. And he goes up to the whiteboard and he goes, "I've got the future of the Mac." He said, "We're gonna call it the digital hub."

Hala Taha: I love that.

Ron Johnson: The hub. And he said, "The Mac will be in the center."

Hala Taha: Mm. "

Ron Johnson: You'll have your devices like your Canon camera-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm

Ron Johnson: or your Sony camcorder, and we'll create a layer of software in the middle, and we'll be able to take your da- your content from your camera, you know- Mm-hmm ... into the Mac and through our applications like iPhoto, iMovie, iTunes. We will do things you couldn't do before."

Hala Taha: Mm. "

Ron Johnson: And that's how we'll position the Mac."

And so we talked about that at ET, and then that night I woke up about 2:00 in the morning, I couldn't sleep. I said, "Well, if Steve really believes in the digital hub, we've designed our store around products."

Hala Taha: Mm. "

Ron Johnson: They should be designed about, around the digital hub, about what people can do."

Hala Taha: [00:12:00] Yeah.

Ron Johnson: So the next morning, uh, it was Tuesday, which is when we have our retail meeting.

And Steve used to like me to go to the main building, you know, at Infinite Loop in Cupertino and ride with him to the store.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Um, just so we could catch up and chat about what we're gonna do that day. And I got there and he said, "You look..." He goes, "You look tired." I said, "Well, I was up." And I said, "You know, I've been thinking about the store and if you love the digital hub, you know, I think the store's wrong."

Hala Taha: Mm. And

Ron Johnson: he looked at me, he said, "Tell me more." And I told him what I just told you. And he said, "God, Ron- You know, you might be right But do you know how much work I put into the store?

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Let's go... I don't want you to talk about this today. Let's work on what we're gonna work on 'cause you might be right, but I don't know if I have the energy to design an entirely new store.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: I said, "Okay." And we got in the car and quiet. You know, usually we chatted the whole way there. It's, you know, eight to 10 minutes depending on traffic lights. Yeah. And, [00:13:00] uh, we got there and we walk in. He hasn't said a word yet since I talked to him.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: We meet, there's a group, about 15 people there waiting.

You know, Steve's coming. Who's gonna get to go first? You know, there's all that-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: pressure of now Steve's in the room. And Steve looks at everyone, he goes, "Well, Ron just told me-" that our store is all wrong.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: And he's right, and so we're gonna start over. But I'm gonna leave now and leave it up to you guys to figure it out."

You

Hala Taha: guys figure it out.

Ron Johnson: Yeah. But he, he told the story then really affectionately to the group. Mm-hmm. That every great thing he'd done, there became a moment in the project when you'd had the courage to do a U-turn-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: or to start over. And he told a story about Toy Story, you know, one of the great movies, first great movie with Pixar.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And he said, "You know, we gotta have the courage to do it right." And that delayed the first store about six months, [00:14:00] but it allowed us to create a place that really became the Apple store we still see today.

Hala Taha: Yeah. What a cool story. Hmm. I love that story. What did that teach you about decision-making and being flexible enough to, to change direction while also being, like, firm in your original decisions?

Like, what did that teach you about decision-making?

Ron Johnson: Well, what it, it became a lesson that I really learned from Steve. Uh, Steve used to say, "If you think through any problem hard enough, you'll come to the inevitable only answer."

Hala Taha: Hmm. "

Ron Johnson: And everyone'll agree with you." Super counterintuitive to what companies like Facebook do today, where let's just get stuff out there and test it, and the customer will tell...

will evolve.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Steve believed in thinking things through with a small group of people, and putting your best, best foot forward.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: That's how he designed products. That's how he created movies.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: That's how he created [00:15:00] this store, right?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And Steve was never in a hurry. You know, he wasn't driven by product timelines.

Hala Taha: Hmm. You

Ron Johnson: know, there were a lot of products we thought, "Is it ever gonna come out?"

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: The phone was actually quite a bit beyond when we initially thought-

Hala Taha: Hmm ...

Ron Johnson: we could bring out a phone at Apple, right? So the lesson I learned from that was, you get one chance to launch a store. You get one chance to launch a product.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: Do it great. If you have a better idea, have the courage to make a change.

Hala Taha: Hmm. Yeah. So you came up with the concept of Genius Bar- Mm-hmm ... correct?

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hala Taha: What was your initial reason for it? I know-

Ron Johnson: Sure ...

Hala Taha: I know that people were not familiar with computers, so obviously to educate, but what else beyond that?

Ron Johnson: Yeah. Well, at first, you know, I get credit for the Genius Bar. But I wouldn't take ownership. Everything is done by groups of people.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And so I had been in a meeting at Offsite, which was really [00:16:00] fun, with 18 people talking about, "How do we build the store? What's the service philosophy?"

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And, uh, in that conversation it became very clear that people felt like they get sold at s- sold to at stores.

Mm. But great service is in hotels, especially five-star hotels. So we asked the question, I said right away, "Okay, let's just spend two days designing the Apple Store service as if we were a five-star hotel. What do we do?"

Hala Taha: What a great activity.

Ron Johnson: It was really fun. Yeah. And, and it led to ... And, and the reason we decided, you know, stores, once you leave, we don't know you're coming back.

So stores tend to try to close, uh, these commissions and things to get someone to buy today.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Hotels, you've already booked the hotel. You're not leaving.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know? They depend on you coming back same time next year or telling a friend. So they're truly in the service business. And, and I knew at the time that people would take four or five visits to buy a Mac.[00:17:00]

So in many ways we were gonna be like a hotel.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You're not gonna sell anybody on the first visit. So why would not do that? And as we looked at the hotel, uh, the ... We ended the first day, had a great day, and I said, "Tomorrow we're gonna talk about customer service," you know. It's something that most people hide in a technology store because you don't want the customer to fear tech- They're already scared of technology.

You don't want them to say, "Well, this thing's not gonna work. Look at that big service counter you have," right?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And, uh, that night I was sitting there thinking about it. I said, "So what is there in a hotel?" That could be a metaphor for service. And I said, "Well, they, every hotel has a great bar."

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And you know, the thing about bartenders, they're really friendly.

And if I wanna learn about what I can do for dinner, bartenders tend to know- Mm-hmm ... 'cause they talk to people all the time. And, you know, they dispense alcohol. What if we dispensed advice?

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And I said, came in the next day, I said, "What if we build a [00:18:00] bar for service, and let's make it the most important part of the store.

Let's stick it out," you know? Yeah. And, you know, people kind of reacted pretty well to the idea. And I called Steve and told him about it. He said, "That sounds like a great idea. What are you gonna call it?" I said, "I don't know." He goes, "Well, tell me when you have a name." I said, "Okay." And a few days later, I was, uh, kind of watching, like I love to do...

I was, for some reason, I turned on the old Apple "Think Different" ad-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm,

Ron Johnson: mm-hmm ... which we all know.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: That Steve used when he came back to Apple to motivate the teams. And the last line said, "While some people da, da, da, we see genius."

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And I said, "Genius Bar." It just seemed to make sense. And so I called Steve and I said, "Steve, I got the name.

I'm gonna call it the Genius Bar," and I explained why. And he said, "You can't do that." And I assumed it was because, you know, you didn't wanna leverage the [00:19:00] Genius branding.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: He said, "No, because anybody you find who can talk about technology is a geek. So if you wanna call it The Geek Bar, maybe that would work, but you should think about another name."

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know, and this was during the day sometime, and Steve, as I said, would call every night at 8:00. Mm-hmm. We had a agreement to do that for a year. And he called that night and I was prepared, and I said, "Steve, I wanna talk to you about the name again." And I said, "The main reason I want that name is I wanna be in a position where we have everyone in every city we put a store fighting to be one of the Geniuses."

Hala Taha: Mm. '

Ron Johnson: Cause who wouldn't wanna be the smartest Apple person in Minneapolis, the smartest Apple person in New York City?

Hala Taha: Mm. '

Ron Johnson: Cause that's what the Genius is. And I said, "Then we won't have any trouble getting people who can serve-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: and help with technology." Steve said, "Interesting." And the [00:20:00] next morning, I went into work, and I, uh, was going up to my office and I walked by our general counsel, Nancy Heinen, and Nancy said, "Ron, what's a Genius Bar?"

"Steve asked me to trademark that name," you know? So Steve, you know, quickly, as always, yeah, if you had a good idea, he was the first to get behind it.

Hala Taha: It's really cool that he was able to kind of change his mind- Mm-hmm ... and, and that you guys actually had a relationship where you could challenge him, and then- Yeah

end up getting your way too. But

Ron Johnson: everyone did on

Hala Taha: the ET. Hmm. What's ET?

Ron Johnson: This, uh, the, uh, executive team at Apple.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know, this isn't unique to me. If you were talking to Jony Ive or Phil Schiller or Tim Cook, they'd all say the same thing. Steve wanted the best ideas to win, and he loved having a vigorous debate, a conversation with people that were really smart and passionate like him to get to the right answer.

Nothing, you know, I think, uh, [00:21:00] uh, uh, I don't, wanna use turned him on- ... but got him excited. You know, l- than a good debate-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: about something that hadn't been done before.

Hala Taha: So Genius Bar was really innovative. The way that you guys laid out the Apple Stores were- Mm-hmm ... really innovative. Uh, and you talk a lot about, like, what is, what does it truly mean to be- Mm-hmm

innovative?

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Help us understand your, your opinion on that.

Ron Johnson: Yeah, to me, uh, this is the big mistake people make, is they don't understand the difference between improvement-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Ron Johnson: and innovation. In my mind, innovation always is doing something that has never been done before, right? And things that have never been done come out of someone's imagination, and that's what makes them disruptive.

Most people, you know, are comfortable. They pay attention to what's going on in the world, especially at their competitors.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And they take an idea a competitor's done, and it's new to their [00:22:00] company But it's mere improvement.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Right? And there's nothing wrong with that. We should be doing that all the time.

Paying attention to what our competitors are doing, shamelessly taking their best ideas and using them. Apple's done that-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: many times, right? Uh, Facebook does that all the time, right? There's nothing wrong with that. That's competition. But it's not improvement.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: It's not innovation. Because everyone's doing that, so the real question when you're trying to improve is can I improve faster than somebody else?

Right? Innovation starts in the imagination.

Hala Taha: Mm. And

Ron Johnson: it takes a whole different level of courage, uh, and a whole different level of skills to pull it off. And some companies are great and some aren't, as I learned when I went to JCPenney.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, and I definitely wanna talk to you about how to test innovative ideas- Mm-hmm

and what the right approach is. Mm-hmm. Uh, but first let's talk about your time at Target. So you worked at Target before Apple.

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: And you were really responsible [00:23:00] for, like, the whole, like, Tarjay movement, right? Mm-hmm. Where Target became sort of like the fancier Walmart, the, the more, like, design-forward, uh, version of Walmart.

Um, and I remember growing up, we used to call it Tarjay and, like- Yeah ... it was like a nicer store.

Ron Johnson: Yeah.

Hala Taha: Um, so when you first started at Target- Mm-hmm ... like, what was your initiative? Like, what were you charged to do?

Ron Johnson: Yeah. Uh, again, let me not just be humble, let me be really honest. I didn't come with, up with Tarjay.

You know, I think if you read the Target history, someone in Duluth or Minnesota in the third store called it Tarjay. You know, it's just kind of the French pronunciation of that word. Yeah. And it kinda stuck below the surface. In the '90s when Target really took off as a company, I was there from '90 to 2000, the stock went up 12 times because Target really got its footing and [00:24:00] emerged.

Mm-hmm. Filled that gap between what people thought they could find at a discount store-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: and what they were finding at the specialty stores in the mall or department stores, which were really the leaders in where you go to find new ideas.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And Target took that over. Um, when I got there, you know, the CEO, Bob Ulrich, a great CEO, said, "Let's differentiate from Walmart."

Because Walmart now was making this move from rural America.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Target and Walmart started the same year in 1961.

Hala Taha: Oh, wow. I thought Target started later.

Ron Johnson: No, 1961. 20 years later- You know, they were the two leading discount stores. There were still 10. You know, Kmart, and Venture, and Hills- Mm-hmm ... and every region had a discounter, right?

'Cause the only way to grow, there wasn't an internet, you had to open stores.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And it was good to put your stores in one area so your marketing got, you know-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: leveraged. Um, but Target owned suburbs, [00:25:00] Walmart owned rural.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Well, Walmart was coming to the suburbs, 'cause they had pretty much done all the rural stores they thought they could.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: But Walmart had a lot lower cost structure. Part, they designed, you know, less expensive stores, but they were also better at systems and different things. Mm. So they were

Hala Taha: a

Ron Johnson: big competitor. So the only way Target could win was by being different than Walmart. And different probably had a little higher price point.

But a lot of times different wasn't better, it was just different.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: So the buyers at Target would take something like a high-volume toothpaste by Crest, and Walmart was so low on price, they'd get some other ounces and assume the customer couldn't calculate and just charge a different price.

Hala Taha: Mm. '

Ron Johnson: Cause different- It'd

Hala Taha: be like a smaller toothpaste basically

Ron Johnson: smaller or bigger- Mm ... but it was more ounce.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: But they got away with it because there wasn't a direct competitive SKU or stock keeping unit, right?

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: So I came up with the idea that what if we could be [00:26:00] different and better, and I called it preferred.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know, if something's preferred, you'd probably say it's different and it means more to me.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And for the home area that I had at the time, I started in toys, then I hit all kids, and then I went into home. Uh, the home was emerging in the late '90s as the category.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: People were buying homes and moving even more aggressively to the suburbs. But the retailers that had d- not ... dominated the '80s, like the Gap and The Limited, were now being dominated by people like Crate & Barrel, and Pottery Barn- Mm

Hala Taha: and,

Ron Johnson: you know, Williams-Sonoma, and Restoration Hardware. And so the home area was becoming a hot area. And at the same time, design was becoming a thing in the world. Um, I... Tom Peters called it the decade of design. Volkswagen did their Beetle. Steve and Johnny were working on the new iMac.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, just on and on.

Hala Taha: [00:27:00] Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And I said, "What if Target won on design?" Instead of carrying a tea kettle at $9.99, what if we had a tea kettle that was special, that didn't just, you know, boil water, it lifted your spirits every time you looked at it? And so I had this idea to, you know, do design, and I thought home was the perfect place to do it.

And, uh, coincidentally met a guy named Michael Graves, who had been a great architect in the '80s. Mm-hmm. And had done home products for companies like Alessi, Italian-made leader in design. And I was introduced to Michael, and I quickly became friends, and I said, "How would you like to design for Target?"

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: "You design, we build. We'll go make them, 'cause we've got great sourcing." And he said, "Ron, I'm the head of the architecture practice at Princeton, and not a single one of my students can afford one of my products. I would love to do that."

Hala Taha: Oh, I would have expected him to be like, "I don't wanna water [00:28:00] down my brand," or- Well,

Ron Johnson: that's what his team said.

Hmm. His team didn't want him to do it. But Michael, I don't know, he w- we, we just got along great. But he had no objection. And I remember the first time we toured a Target store together, I came with a pack of the yellow Pad, yellow, yellow stickies, you know, from 3M in Minnesota nearby. Mm-hmm. I said, "Just put one of these on any product you think you could do better."

He said, "Ron, you didn't bring enough stickies." And so he went through and, you know, just ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. Mm-hmm. And then we launched with 140 items. Uh, it was probably Doing design at Target was as much fun as creating the Apple Store.

Hala Taha: Really?

Ron Johnson: It really was. It was hard. Uh, no one thought it would work. I'll never forget, you know, we- Michael used to say, "You get 10 great days in your life."

You know, and he told me about several of them. And I think the day we launched Michael [00:29:00] Graves was one of my great days.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: We were in New York. Target didn't have stores in the Northeast yet. And we had taken over the Whit- we had the courage to take over the Whitney Museum, the first floor, for like a week.

But for the night of the launch, we invited all the press and influencers from New York.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And the press people said, "Nobody's gonna come, and if you're gonna say any remarks, do 'em in the first 15 minutes, 'cause they'll stop by and leave."

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And, uh, we took over the floor. We took all the items, some of the items that were coming in, like the teakettle and the clock, and we treated 'em like museum pieces.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: We had, like, 50 clocks that made the Target bullseye at the entrance. We had chandeliers with stainless steel kitchen tools. Did all these beautiful things. That's

Hala Taha: really cool.

Ron Johnson: And, uh, you know, people came in, and you could just feel the energy. It was packed. We didn't talk for an hour and a half 'cause people were too busy-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm

Ron Johnson: wandering around. And there was alcohol, which maybe helped too. [00:30:00] But, you know, the thing started about 7:00. When Michael got up, he was really funny, and he said a few things. And when he was done, we had given everyone a whistle. I don't know, I... 'Cause the whistle's on the teakettle. Mm. You know? And all of a sudden everyone starts blowing whistles.

It was this moment where you knew, you knew it was gonna work.

Hala Taha: Yeah. You knew it was

Ron Johnson: gonna be a success. And everyone was shocked. People s- we finally kicked people out, turned the lights on about 10:00. But it was like an event. It was a moment. Mm. And it's kinda like the first Apple Store when we opened.

You kinda had a sense it was gonna work, and I've been lucky to be a part of some great moments in my career.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And that was one of 'em.

Hala Taha: Really cool. So, so you decided you were gonna do home goods. Um, fashion, from what I read in your book, like, it, like, the trends change too quickly. But you did innovate-

Ron Johnson: Well, now here's what I've tried to, in the book, I've- Yeah

the point I was trying to make in the book.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And this was the business case [00:31:00] for design. Because when you do something innovative, you're in the business to make money. You've gotta think, "Why does this make sense?"

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: So Target had, in their business model, two categories of merchandise. We'd say we had basics.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And basics, you had to price with the market. Whatever Walmart charged, we'd charge.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Ron Johnson: And therefore, the prices, the margin tends to be low, but they drive a lot of volume.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Then you have fashion, and we had, you know, 30% of the store in things like apparel for kids and family and men's and women.

That you can take a high markup. But you gotta mark it down every season.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, unfortunately, summer goes away.

Hala Taha: Yep.

Ron Johnson: You know? Then we have fall, and then we have holiday.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: So fashion for a, a store like Target, you know, it's not a luxury brand that gets 80-point markups-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: would, you know, make a little higher margin than basics, but not a lot.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: I viewed design, you could get the markup of fashion, because it's got that same [00:32:00] appeal, but a great item would be in the assortment 10 years from now. You'd never have to mark it down.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Right? So whereas- Really smart ... we were making, if you fuzz your eyes, 30 points on basics-

Hala Taha: Yep ...

Ron Johnson: 40 points on fashion-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm

Ron Johnson: we could make 50 points on design. So if design became 10% of our volume- That would add one and a half points of margin to Target's bottom line, and we could fit that in-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: and grab a new customer. So it was a good business case.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Um, but convincing people at Target to do that was hard because they saw our big co- cus- competitor being-

Hala Taha: Cheaper, yeah

Ron Johnson: cheaper, Walmart. Mm. And now we're going up further?

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: This is gonna change the image of Target if you're successful to where no one from Walmart's coming.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: But we did it. And Target, what it really did is it reinforced the idea of Target.

Hala Taha: Yeah. You

Ron Johnson: know, and then people

Hala Taha: were all- And premium.

Ron Johnson: All that, yeah

just, you know, a l- we got the customer who was shopping at the mall-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: to come to Target and buy [00:33:00] home and more apparel and more discretionary purchases.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Uh, you did something pretty innovative with children's fashion too. Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: I did.

Hala Taha: What, um, the, the story goes from what I understand is that, uh, s- the f- sizes were really off, and people were having trouble finding the right size of clothes for their kids.

Ron Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. I guess, let me try to-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: if I could. And this goes back to, it's... 'cause this is an example where I'd say we improved Target's kids department.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: But it was a radical change.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Ron Johnson: So I had admired The Gap from the '80s. I mean, Mickey Drexler was, you know, if you're a young retailer, he was it.

I remember one time I was in Hong Kong at the Regent Hotel, and he walked through the lobby, and it's kinda like I later would see Steve walking into Macworld. Mm-hmm. You know, Mickey was pretty, the guy.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And they had launched Gap Kids. Most beautiful kid store you'll ever see. But what they [00:34:00] did is they made every product from size two, a toddler size two-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm

Ron Johnson: to size 20, which is big for a boys or boy or girl-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: end of the range. Every product was available in every size. Well, that let them have clean presentation.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: They didn't have to break the Gap Kids store into a little toddler area, a little kids area, a big kids area, and that's how every department store and discount store was

Hala Taha: merchandised.

Mm.

Ron Johnson: So when I took over kids, we had a toddler section. We had boys. We had girls. We actually had little boys and big boys.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And little boy got s- character T-shirts, and big boys got things that were closer to, like, juniors.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Um, but kids weren't naturally that. There's big kids, and they didn't wanna have characters on.

They're a little kid. It was just a mess.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And so I figured Target had a pretty s- small children's floor, and I said, "If we had the courage to do what the Gap did-" We could double our [00:35:00] assortment.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Instead of offering all these things for little kids and big kids, let's have one kids. And let's have the courage to take our sizes and collapse them, so instead of having a four and a five, we had a four or five.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Instead of a six, seven, seven, eight, we had a six, seven, eight. They're a little big, but kids could grow into them.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: But doing that let us double our assortment, right? But to do this, I got a lot of pushback at Target.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Uh, because we would have to redo every pattern, everything we're doing-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm

Ron Johnson: you know, to create that consistency. So it was a shockingly hard amount of work to do that, but it worked.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And Target's kids area ran well ahead of the other apparel areas. After the first six months or so were tough, for the next probably decade, you know, because we fundamentally changed, gave Target a benefit that nobody else had.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And no one else really did it [00:36:00] because they didn't understand it.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know? And that's what I call, you know, that was improvement. I found the idea at the Gap. It was pretty innovative for discount stores and department stores to do that.

Hala Taha: How did you get your, your ideas, like all these different ideas that you had for the stores that you worked for, the brands that you worked for?

How did you generate your ideas? What was your process?

Ron Johnson: Well, I don't... There isn't really a process. You just, you love what you do, you know? If you love what you do, you're immersed in it.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, I probably have visited as many stores in my lifetime as anybody my age.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know? I still do that.

When I came to see you, I had a chance to walk through the stores in front of us. And, uh, so when you're in stores a lot, you learn to become a student-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: of stores. And if you have a mind that's always looking for what's next, but wanting to do it now- You pick up a newness

Hala Taha: Yeah

Ron Johnson: You know, and you get an eye for it.

And then [00:37:00] when I used to take over areas, I used to ask myself, "How can I do something in the time I'm gonna be here," like in toys, "What can I do in my maybe two years I'll be in toys that will permanently improve Target's position in toys?" So that forced me to think not about, you know, what should I carry in aisle three, what can I do at a higher level that will endure?

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: That's what sizing was. It wasn't about, you know, getting great colors and basic T-shirts, and getting a great fashion statement, and getting that new dress. Start at the higher level. What if we sized our merchandise different?

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: That was design and home. It wasn't about, okay, let's make sure we're picking the right things from the vendors and fighting for allocation, which are all good things to do.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: But the next person who takes over will try to do the same thing. They might not be as good at it-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: as whoever had it before. Design was a permanent change in how Target competed [00:38:00] that no one else was doing.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Right? So I think it's more how you frame the problem that leads to the, the innovation.

Okay? So being loving what I did-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: being in stores, combined with how I frame the problem Plus courage. You know, I just always have had courage-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: you know, to do things.

Hala Taha: And I think it's y- you've been in retail for a really long time, so it's- Yeah ... it's the expertise in retail. So-

Ron Johnson: Yeah ...

Hala Taha: I'm an expert in podcasting, and similarly- Mm-hmm

I can, like, easily spot the trends. Well, that's

Ron Johnson: why you have a network.

Hala Taha: You know? Yeah. So to easily be able to like- Yeah ... spot the trends because I'm always reading about it. I'm always- Yeah ... curious about how to grow, how to do this, how to do that, and like will s- find things that, like, people wouldn't notice.

But it's probably very similar where you're just such an expert in retail that- Exactly ... you walk into a store and you're like, "Oh, that's interesting."

Ron Johnson: Well, that's what, you know, you probably get asked all the time by friends, "Could you talk to my daughter or son- Yeah ... who are thinking about a career?"

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And my [00:39:00] advice to people all the time is, "You know, when you're thinking of what to do, pick an industry you can love for a lifetime-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: and become an expert."

Hala Taha: That's great advice.

Ron Johnson: You'll never get bored.

Hala Taha: Yeah. So you, you were at Target. Y- we talked about your experience at Apple.

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: And after Apple, you got an offer to be the CEO of- Mm-hmm

JCPenney.

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: And when you first initially got that offer, how did you feel about it?

Ron Johnson: Well, I wasn't... I was open for a change.

Hala Taha: Okay. '

Ron Johnson: Cause I was turning 50. I'd been at Apple for 12 years, 11 years when I started to think about it.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And I kind of was thinking, you know, most things I've done have been in 10-year cycles, and if I'm gonna do something other than stay at Apple, now would be a time to think about it.

And a couple of guys from New York, a guy named Bill Ackman- Mm-hmm ... who's a well-known investor.

Hala Taha: I think I interviewed him.

Ron Johnson: I think s- You probably have ... I think so. Yeah. Bill's a very smart [00:40:00] guy.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Risk-taker. And a guy named Steve Roth, who was CEO of Vornado, one of the big, uh, real estate firms. They had taken a, an activist position in JCPenney.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: And as part of their investment, uh, Penney said they could join the board and add one more board member. So I got a call out of the blue, "Would you like to talk to Steve and Bill about joining the Penney's board?" And so on one of my trips to New York to visit a new Apple store, we were opening a store on the Upper West Side, um, I stopped over, spent time at Steve, with Steve and Bill at their apartment.

At Steve's apartment. They didn't live together. And, uh, Bill walked me home, and he was excited to have me join the board. And I thought, "You know, why not?" I, I've known Penney's forever. I used to work at Mervyn's and Target and Kids. I know the company, how it competes. I've watched it. Um, and I went out and met all the board members, and they were ready to bring me on as a board [00:41:00] member.

But then the CEO, who'd been there six, seven years, was probably 66 at the time- Unfortunately, had a car accident.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And it was pretty bad. And he survived it, which was great, but it made the board think about succession planning. And I don't know where it came from, but I get a call, "Well, Ron, how would you think of...

how would you like to think about becoming CEO instead of a board member?" And I just thought about it. I said, "Well, that'd be interesting." I wanted to do something really hard, and I loved the department store, 'cause I grew up, they were the king.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know, in the '60s when I grew up, they were the king.

And I always thought they had, you know, inadvertently lost their way 'cause they hadn't competed well enough.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And traveling around the world as I did with Apple stores, there were great department stores. Harrods and Selfridges in London, Printemps- Mm-hmm ... Galeries Lafayette in Paris. [00:42:00] Hong Kong. You know, the department store isn't dead, it was kinda dying in the United States.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: I thought that'd be a big challenge. So I decided, oh, why not? So I did.

Hala Taha: And, and your... I think your dad talked to you about that and, and basically was like, "How, how much success do you need?"

Ron Johnson: That's, uh, good. You've read the book. I'm impressed. No, my dad's attitude was, "Why are you doing this, Ron? You've got a young family," and my kids were in, uh, I think they were 12 and 14, 13 and 15, going into their most important years of their young life or the years that Karen and I would...

they'd be living with us.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And, you know, Apple's doing great. I... it was kind of a hobby for me, 'cause the store, everything we opened worked, and we had built a great team.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And the team was doing the work. I was kinda leading and having fun designing new stores and stuff. Um, but I wanted to take on a challenge, and my dad thought it was more pride than [00:43:00] purpose.

Hala Taha: Yeah, like the, the prize of being CEO. Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Prove what you can do. Yeah. Not, not even being CEO, just proving you can turn around the department store.

Hala Taha: Mm. You

Ron Johnson: know, you helped make Target, Target. Yeah. You created the Apple Store. No one thought it'd work. Here's another one.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Another-

Ron Johnson: You know, this

Hala Taha: is-

challenge ...

Ron Johnson: and, you know, looking back, there was some truth to that. Even though I didn't wanna face it, there always is. And you can create in your own head, you know, "No, I'm doing this because, you know, I'd like to take a new challenge. I'd like to help all those employees in Texas compete for another century," you know?

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Um, you can always talk yourself into it, but you gotta be really thoughtful what's really motivating you.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Just,

Hala Taha: you know? So you, so you went to JCPenney and you wanted to help turn around the stores, 'cause like you're saying, department stores still are kind of a dying breed in the US.

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: Um, w- what were some of the things that you wanted to change about JCPenney?

Ron Johnson: Yeah. Well, it's [00:44:00] interesting. The department store is actually having a good little period right now.

Hala Taha: They are?

Ron Johnson: Yeah. Macy's is, you know, they got a new team in place, and they've got their bold new chapter. Mm.

Hala Taha: And

Ron Johnson: their stock's up maybe double from the floor-

Hala Taha: Oh, okay ...

Ron Johnson: couple years ago. They're competing better.

It doesn't mean they're winning-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: but they're starting to make more money. Even Kohl's has gone up a little bit-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Ron Johnson: of late. Um, Nordstrom is taking the company private. They're doing a little better, you know. So they're coming back. Um, but they're a lot smaller than they were when I joined JCPenney years ago.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: They're about half the number of stores in that group. Oh, wow.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Um, but, you know, I just felt that if we had the courage to reimagine the store, to get at what we needed, a younger family customer- We could have another day. You know, because the reality is, like Penney's had 600 great stores. They were pretty productive.

They just had a aged customer. You know, the customer was [00:45:00] 55 to 65 years old.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ron Johnson: When I was at Target, they were 25 to 35. And you get a young customer, they're gonna have families, and they're gonna live with you- Yeah ... for the next few decades. Where the Penney's customer was going away, and that's why market share was going down.

You know, so how do you get a younger customer? Well, we had basically free stores, 'cause we're an anchor in the mall.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Right? And they're 30-year leases. So all we have to do is redo everything about the store, but we could create something quite compelling.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: So number one, okay? Pricing. You know?

Everything we sold was 60% off. We ran 13 ads a week.

Hala Taha: So many coup- so many

Ron Johnson: discounts-

Hala Taha: Coupons ... and coupons

Ron Johnson: at JCPenney. There were sales and coupons, and nobody else was shopping that way. If you walked through the specialty stores, it was all full price, and you'd have clearance when it didn't sell.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know? Starbucks, everything you do. But the department [00:46:00] store had this reliance on coupons. Well, imagine instead of s- telling someone it's worth $40 and selling it for 10, just make it $10 every day.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Make every day a great day to shop. Now I've restored my brand credibility on pricing That would allow me to attract all these people to Penney's, new brands from all around the world, but most importantly direct to consumer.

You know, back in 2011, that's when people like Warby Parker-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Ron Johnson: went online with glasses. Yep. That's when, you know, mattresses, and everyone was creating these, Bonobos, all these things. Well, they'd need a place to put stores, and we're in the mall. But we could offer 1,000 square feet to each of them at much better prices, 'cause we pay...

We're free. The mall being 100 feet down the road, it's gonna be $60 a square foot.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know, so we could reimagine the interior [00:47:00] of the store. Instead of having, you know, 60,000 square feet of racks, 100 unique specialty stores. The best of the Penney's brands plus others-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: and reinvent how you shop.

So now you got great pricing every day. We got a whole new environment inside. We've got new merchandise that you can't find somewhere else. Mm. And suddenly shopping at Penney's is like an adventure. You know, it's like the Apple Store. It's a place to belong. And in the center, in that, we're not putting a Genius Bar, we'll put a town square, a place where we'll run fashion shows and-

Hala Taha: Mm

Ron Johnson: do things for kids and families and, you know, we can make this an experience. And so I wanted to do that.

Hala Taha: It sounds like a great idea.

Ron Johnson: Well, I think most people thought it was a good idea. However, I learned a lot of lessons, right?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: So I went to Penney's and I basically asked them to implement my idea of America's Favorite Store.

It wasn't their idea.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know? And if you're gonna [00:48:00] make a change, you gotta get people to buy in. It starts with trusting you as a leader. They didn't know me. They saw me as the Apple guy.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Even though I'd spent more time in apparel than technology, they never knew about my working before Apple.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know? And I'm a new guy, and I'm well-to-do and know-it-all-

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm ...

Ron Johnson: and, and, and they just didn't buy into it. And I didn't have the courage to let people go. I don't like firing people.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know, I said, "I'll convince them," you know? And so the, the, the, the, the big mistake happened my first month on the job.

I was at a board meeting and I asked the board a really important question. One little question. You know, if you're gonna make a major change to your retail strategy, the time to do it is February, March. Because you've gone through Christmas, you have your most clearance, you have time to get people ready for [00:49:00] the next year.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: If we're gonna do it, we either have to do it this February or we wait a year and do it a year from now.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: If we wait a year, we can focus on our teams, getting the inventory right, and making sure everyone understands it, da, da, da, da.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know? But if we went now, we're not gonna go through another year of, you know, kinda tough business.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And the CEO, Mike Ullman, who I replaced, just said, "Ron, from my perspective, what do we have to lose? It sounds great." And the board all kinda nodded, and I made the decision. I made the decision. Let's go.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And I told the team, "We're gonna go. In six weeks, we're changing everything."

Hala Taha: Oh my gosh. That's not a lot of time.

Ron Johnson: But, but the team did a phenomenal job. I mean- Mm-hmm ... they ... We had to go through and figure out prices on thousands and thousands of items, and change price tags, and figure out signing and how to communicate this, and create advertisements. And, but the reality, we went way too fast.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And so the team [00:50:00] didn't understand it.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: The board didn't truly understand what we were doing. Uh, investors didn't understand it, you know? And most importantly, customers didn't

Hala Taha: understand

Ron Johnson: it. Yeah. And so we alienated that coupon customer.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: And, you know, in many ways we fired our customer.

Hala Taha: Your most loyal customer.

Ron Johnson: Our most loyal customer.

Now, the one that's not gonna carry us to the future, but we had thought sales would be down 15%. They were down 20% right away.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know? But outside investors didn't know what the plan was, 'cause we didn't really communicate as well as we could.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And they thought, "Who's this idiot running JCPenney?

How are you as a board letting him do this?"

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: And all the board members get called by their friends, "What are you doing?" And it was a really tough year. Now, the NPS was through the roof.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: So sales are down 20% That means 80% of the people are buying, or new customers are coming.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Ron Johnson: And they were loving it, 'cause [00:51:00] they found all these beautiful new shops.

We had put in maybe 20 shops as we went through the year. There was a Levi's shop. It was the best place to buy Levi's in the country by far.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And sales in Levi's were up 40% year over year, you know? But it was early, but the overall picture was things are going down.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And I had real personal trouble with it, 'cause I had had 25 years of success.

Hala Taha: Yeah, you just had

Ron Johnson: great success up to then. But I had never gone through what I went through that year. Mm. And eventually, a year later, I said to the board, "Look, I'm not having fun. If you're not having fun, you think we're doing the wrong thing here, the sooner you make a change and go back, the better.

You know, because every month that goes by with this strategy would be harder to go back to your old strategy." 'Cause that's what some of the team wanted to do.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And after three months, they said, "Ron, we're gonna go back." And they actually brought back Mike Ullman to do

Hala Taha: it. Mm.

Ron Johnson: And they tried to do a U-turn.

Unfortunately, that didn't work either. [00:52:00] You know, when Mike left two years later, the stock was down another 50%. And then they brought in Marvin, and after he left two years later to go to Lowe's, stock was down another 50%.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know, so Penney's was having trouble when I came in. The failed transformation took it down.

The U-turn took it down. So we really missed an opportunity, I think, to save JCPenney.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Uh, and I think the lesson is, you know, if you're gonna make a change- You gotta, you gotta stick it out.

Hala Taha: You gotta stick it out?

Ron Johnson: Yeah.

Hala Taha: Was there any sort of, like, testing you wish you did or talking more to the customer?

Ron Johnson: Yeah. You know, I do. I... You know, it's funny. At the time I told people I don't believe in tests.

Hala Taha: Mm. '

Ron Johnson: Cause by and large, I, I don't. We didn't test sizing at Target. We didn't.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. Sometimes the customer doesn't even know what they want.

Ron Johnson: They don't. That was Steve's approach, right?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: But I look back. Steve changed his [00:53:00] mind a few times.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know? Like the iPod, he said, "I'm not gonna bring that to Windows. Hell will freeze over before I make a Windows iPod." And three years later he did, and that's what made the iPod. It's what really made Apple. That catapulted our ability to get Windows customers.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: So Steve changed his mind.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know what I mean? And so I was pretty darn stubborn on the pricing in particular. That was the real difficult

Hala Taha: part. The, the, the no discounts.

Ron Johnson: Yeah. And, uh, and if I had done it over, and we had a year, I would've at least tested the marketing messages. Mm-hmm. You know, you can do that without testing with the customer.

That would've been helpful.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Yeah. There are a lot of ways we could've rolled out. I was worried about the cost of having two teams, one doing the new pennies, one managing the old. I thought it'd be too much work for the buyers to do both. So I thought of it as an either/or. But the big thing, you know, quite honestly, I was arrogant.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: I was situationally arrogant. [00:54:00] Everything I'd done for 25 years had worked.

Hala Taha: Yep.

Ron Johnson: You know? And because I had the courage to make change. And so when the board said go, I said, "Let's go." You know? Yeah. And on the hindsight, we should've tested a lot of things.

Hala Taha: How did that impact your ego? Like, did you feel- down or like that you were a failure because you had failed this- No, I,

Ron Johnson: I-

transformation with chasing money? ... was a, I was a failure. Make no mistake about it.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: When you're the CEO of a company and you do something, you know, that fails in everyone's mind, and you walk away from it-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Ron Johnson: you failed.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know? We fail every day. But when you come back to work, you know, you have, you fail, have not a great podcast, you come back, you do another podcast.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: When you lose the chance to keep going, and when it's over-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Ron Johnson: that's when you fail, right?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And so I did, I failed. And it was hard. Um, I think even today [00:55:00] there'll be times I wake up and my stomach churns about, what could I have done different? Mm. And why did I go there? Why did I listen to people?

Why did I go so fast?

Hala Taha: Why didn't you fire who you wanted to fire?

Ron Johnson: What could I have done different, you know?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You agonize over those things. You, they never leave you.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know, that's part of life. Now, I've been lucky. I, I got lucky too.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, the Apple stores worked, you know? Yep. And Target did pretty well.

Hala Taha: Yeah. You know,

Ron Johnson: so I- You've

Hala Taha: got a great, you've got a great legacy ...

Ron Johnson: I've had, well, I've had, no, I've had, I guess if anything I've, I've tried.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know, I've tried.

Hala Taha: Okay, let's play a game. Sure. So I was, when I was reading your stuff, I thought that you had a lot of quotes. Now, not every quote comes from you, but I thought we could play a game called Quote GOAT.

Do you know what GOAT means? Greatest of all time.

Ron Johnson: Okay.

Hala Taha: Okay? So I'm gonna say a quote, you tell us what this quote- Are these

Ron Johnson: my quotes? The ones

Hala Taha: that- Some of them are your quotes, some of them are quotes that you say.

Ron Johnson: Yep.

Hala Taha: It's all quotes that you're familiar with.

Ron Johnson: Sure.

Hala Taha: Um, if there's a [00:56:00] story about the quote, tell us that.

Ron Johnson: Sure.

Hala Taha: Or tell us the meaning behind it. Whatever comes to your mind, okay?

Ron Johnson: Yeah. "

Hala Taha: Good things happen when people come to the store."

Ron Johnson: That's absolutely true. That's absolutely true, and that's the Apple store.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know, I mean, I just believed in traffic, right? That's why you build stores, to get customers to come in.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And no matter what they're coming for. You know, we ran summer camps for kids, and kids would come in five days a week in the morning. Almost every employee was dedicated to camp.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And customers couldn't buy because the kids were over all the computers. But I knew good things would happen from that.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: So good things do happen when you come to the store.

Hala Taha: Every hour has its leader. Every leader has their time

Ron Johnson: Yeah, that's absolutely true. That's from the Talmud. I don't know if you know that.

Hala Taha: Oh, I didn't know that.

Ron Johnson: That's from the Talmud. Um, I read that in a book by Marianne Williamson, A Return to [00:57:00] Love.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: But the idea behind that is really simple, that leadership is something you've gotta give away.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Right? And whoever's ... Like in this podcast, right now you're leading. You've got this thing about the goat. Right?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You're leading, I'm following, right?

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: When I'm speaking to you and answering a question, I'm leading.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: That's true in a store. When one of our employees or the customer, they're the most important person in the store.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: It's not the manager, right? They're leading that conversation. And so I think we have to all recognize that we are leaders and we're followers all day long.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Right? And you gotta be willing to give away leadership.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: You know, and that's a really good life lesson.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Well, I'll ask you about that again later. Make love visual.

Ron Johnson: Yeah. That's the ... I really think when you see two people smiling, [00:58:00] when you see brain cells multiplying like you do in an Apple store, that's an act of love because together you're improving each other's lives.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And when you see that in a store, you're making love visual. So I used to tell my friends, the thing I love about the Apple store, you see love everywhere.

Hala Taha: And I think that's true. Like people helping each other

Ron Johnson: and- Helping each other, and it's, and it, and it's a beautiful thing. You know, you see, you know, uh, like when I go to the grocery store, and I do this too, but you see a customer getting out of their car and taking shopping carts that were left-

Hala Taha: Mm

Ron Johnson: in the parking lot, and you're walking into the store, just return them and put them where they belong. When I see that, that's an act of love.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And it's visual. That person didn't have to do it. He's securing the good for the store.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: But it's just the right thing to do.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: When someone stops down to pick up a piece of [00:59:00] paper that's on the floor and put it in a trash can, that's making love visual.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Right? When you walk an old lady across the street, that's making love visual.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: And great stores do that.

Hala Taha: Yeah. I really like this one. The conversational nature of reality.

Ron Johnson: Yeah. No, that's not mine. That's from David Whyte.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: David Whyte's a poet. Um, but he had this philosophy that everything in life-

comes from a conversation, and the most important conversation is the one you have with yourself. So think about that.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know, every day you're thinking.

Hala Taha: Yes.

Ron Johnson: Well, what are you thinking? You're going, "Okay, like, uh, I've got to go to the airport later today." I'm going, "Well, if I leave at what time?" I look at Uber.

If I leave at this time, I'll probably be on time. I'm having a conversation with myself and making a decision I'll leave at this time. When I thought about the Genius Bar before talking to Steve on the phone, [01:00:00] I had a conversation with myself, which led to a conversation with Steve, which then led to a decision.

So the reality is the world's about a conversation. Now, the best conversations are the ones that have no end in mind.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: The conversation will reveal knowledge that you didn't come into the conversation with, you know?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Too often, unfortunately, we go into a conversation, "Okay, I wanna convince my spouse, I wanna convince my kids-

Hala Taha: Mm

Ron Johnson: that this is the way to do it," so I don't go in and seek to understand and then maybe be understood, as Stephen Covey would say. Yeah, that's another great quote.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: You know, but the idea, I think life is a conversation, and we've got to become better conversationalists. And unfortunately, with all this screen time and social media, we're spending less time connecting.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And we need to spend more time convening, and convening is really ... You know, [01:01:00] it's interesting the word convene, the root word is of is, it's the root of the word convenience, right? And that's the opposite of what we do when things are convenient. We tend to not convene. You know, we got to go back to convening more, having conversations, and being aware of how that reveals knowledge.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: ChatGPT can't reveal knowledge, right? It can reveal what the world knows, but it doesn't reveal new knowledge.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: That's gonna come through conversation.

Hala Taha: Okay, last one. People want to do significant things

Ron Johnson: Yeah, we all do. We're born to have meaning, have impact. You know, there's a great little story in the book, and I forget the name of the guy, but years ago, someone ran an experiment, and they, in a infant...

You know, uh, uh, I should know this. I'm a new grandparent. Yeah. But in the, the baby's [01:02:00] crib-

Hala Taha: Okay ...

Ron Johnson: they put one of those mobiles.

Hala Taha: Okay.

Ron Johnson: And once that was up there, the little kid would touch it, and they couldn't stop touching it 'cause they loved it. If I touch this, the thing moves.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: Right? By definition, we enjoy having impact.

We like to influence things, right? The bigger the influence we have, the more excited we get, right? And I think everyone wants to do significant things.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: And that takes encouragement. That takes kindness. That takes a vision. So I've always practiced with my teams, you know, you know, you gotta set a North Star, and the higher that star, the bigger the vision, the easier it is to accomplish it.

If you have something relatively small, it's just another thing on the to-do list. The thing about a North Star is they're up, which is the direction of values.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: But it's also so far out, we're never gonna get there, and that means you have a strategy that will never end.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Ron Johnson: The [01:03:00] Apple Store kept innovating.

Even to this day, 25 years later, the Apple Store feels new and vibrant. It's got a heartbeat. If you walk in the store, you feel-

Hala Taha: Yeah ...

Ron Johnson: the soul of the store, right?

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: That's because we had a great North Star.

Hala Taha: What was the North Star?

Ron Johnson: It was to enrich lives. Very simple. Enrich the lives of the employees and the customers, and everything was designed around that objective in mind.

Hala Taha: Mm. Uh, so I wanna switch gears a bit. I wanna talk about AI. Sure. So when you started the Apple Store, people thought stores were gonna go extinct- Yeah ... because of the internet.

Ron Johnson: Yeah.

Hala Taha: Now, a lot of people think AI is going to be impacting work in general-

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm ...

Hala Taha: perhaps retail. Yeah. How do you think AI is going to impact retail?

Ron Johnson: It's gonna have a huge impact. Um, it's gonna impact the in-store experience, and it's gonna impact the online experience. However, it's not gonna change where we shop. I [01:04:00] don't think it'll change at all how often you go to stores.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Uh, it's just gonna let both be better, you know?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: The biggest change you'll see will be in online shopping, in my opinion.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, I think the idea of having a website with all these little tiles that you have to s- navigate, you know, through men's, ladies, you know- Mm-hmm ... what's new, what's on sale. It'd be a lot easier to have an agent just say, "Hey, I'm looking for something new and exciting. Uh, I'm a guy. I am willing to take fashion risk," and it comes back with, "Here are the items we have."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, that's gonna happen. Agent commerce will be a really big deal, and that's gonna help online. And it'll be a little bit more like when you walk in a store, 'cause in a store you can talk to an employee- Mm-hmm ... and say, you know, "What do you think? What are the hot items? You know, I've got a party tonight.

What should I wear?"

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, so I think the online will compete in that way. The ... Most of what the stores do will be things that you can't see as a customer, but that'll make it a lot better.

Hala Taha: Like what?

Ron Johnson: Inventory management.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know? [01:05:00] Recommendations to the employees, you know. You know, employees will see, you know, what are the best-selling items in the store-

Hala Taha: Hmm

Ron Johnson: you know, come back with that. And it'll be also, 'cause a lot of customers walk in the store, you know they're there. You know, if, like at the Apple store, you know pretty well, you can flash your thing, you know, your QR code with the employee, and they know everything you own.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: And it can recommend, "Oh, you know, you

I see a lot of photos. You know, we got this new camera which has a great camera." You know, you're gonna have improvement everywhere-

Hala Taha: Hmm ...

Ron Johnson: in retail, you know, from AI. I'm a real tech optimist, and I'm a believer in AI. There's downsides, but every new technology we've launched, we've said there are downsides, but they've always been for good.

Hala Taha: Hmm. Well, this has been such an incredible interview. I end my show with two questions I ask all of my guests.

Ron Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Hala Taha: The first one is, what is one actionable thing our Young and Profiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?[01:06:00]

Ron Johnson: Slow down.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: Ruthlessly eliminate hurry from your day. You know, so often we're just go, go, go, go. Too much on the plate, we're running behind, we're feeling anxious. We gotta slow down.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, Steve Jobs did one thing at a time. You know? He would only let Pixar make one movie a year 'cause he said, "You know, we can only do one great movie a year.

We wanna do great movies."

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know, we had the Mac. We had the iPod. Three years later we did a phone. Three years later we did an iPad. It wasn't like Sony that had so many products in its portfolio, or Samsung. We did a few things. Steve was never in a hurry. Never in a hurry. He didn't even carry a cellphone until the iPhone came out.

He didn't wanna be bothered, you know?

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: Slow down.

Hala Taha: It's, it's crazy to hear that because you think of Steve Jobs as being so [01:07:00] innovative, and you would assume that he's just, like, all about, like, deadlines and targets and next thing- Mm-hmm ... and new thing. And it, it's really interesting to hear that he- Yeah

was not into the-

Ron Johnson: He was all about quality.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And what would you say your secret to profiting in life is? And this can go beyond business and finance, however you wanna take it.

Ron Johnson: Well, I'll just say, you know, I l- I was ... When I came out of Harvard Business School, I was going to ... pretty close to accepting a job with Goldman Sachs I'm in eight part department.

That was one of the, the it jobs. Mm-hmm. You know? You get the status of working on Wall Street, and mergers and acquisition. Mm-hmm. It'd be like now, you know? Right now that segment of the business is really hot, and it was back in '84.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: But a, a, a, a guy who was a CFO at Dayton Hudson said to me, "Ron, the net present value of a life has nothing to do with how much money you have."

He said, "You gotta pick the net present value of your life, not your [01:08:00] career."

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Ron Johnson: And that was interesting to me, and that led me to figure out I'm gonna pick an industry I can love for a lifetime. I'll start at the bottom. I unloaded trucks at a Mervyn's store when I got started.

Hala Taha: And that's a retail store?

Ron Johnson: Retail store, and at the time was very popular. And, yeah, but even, you know, I told Steve, you know, "I'll take the job, but, you know, I'm a parent. I'm gonna coach all my kids' sports teams."

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: And he said, "I don't care. Just get your job done." But I would leave Apple at 4:00 every day in the spring to go coach my son's Little League baseball team as an example.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: You know? But the net present value of a life is your whole life. It's your work. It's your family. It's your friends. It's the hobbies you love. You know, it could be your faith. I think that's an important thing for most people.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: No matter what faith it is. You know, you gotta find a way to be [01:09:00] fulfilled in all of those things, right?

And that's what I think is the most important thing.

Hala Taha: That's so beautiful. Another quote from the, from the quote G.O.A.T. Well, Ron, where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

Ron Johnson: Well, I actually have a little website called Ron Johnson Shops Different. It's, the name of the book is Shop Different.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Ron Johnson: Uh, coming out September 22nd. It's really about the Apple store, but it goes back into some of the things we talked about, like my time at Target-

Hala Taha: Mm ...

Ron Johnson: my time at Penney's, and more. Um, but if you go to ronjohnsonshopsdifferent.com, you can have access to all the little interviews I do, podcasts I do, like this one.

Uh, and that'd be where I go.

Hala Taha: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Ron Johnson: Pleasure's mine. Thank you.

Hala Taha: Cool. Great job. Great. I feel like we covered-

Ron Johnson: Oh, it's great ...

Hala Taha: a

Ron Johnson: whole lot of ground. Really fun. So good. Yeah, yeah.

Hala Taha: Great.

Ron Johnson: Were you okay?

Hala Taha: Yeah. Yeah, I think we covered everything.

Ron Johnson: Good. Yeah.

Hala Taha: Well,

Ron Johnson: thank you.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And I loved- Thank you

how you ended it. It was perfect. That was one of my quotes, and [01:10:00] then I didn't r- read it, so I'm happy that you did it. Your quote G.O.A.T. was

Ron Johnson: fun.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Ron Johnson: I didn't know if you wanted me to pick, like, who's the greatest of all time-