Gretchen Rubin: [00:00:00] Human nature is very resistant to change, so by the time you've thought that perhaps you should make a change, you probably should've made that change six months ago.

VO: Gretchen Rubin is a best-selling author and happiness expert who has made it her mission to crack the code on habits, happiness, and what it means to live well.

Gretchen Rubin: I think people acknowledge that it's true, but they wish it were not true, which is something that can be done at any time is often done at no time. You think, "Well, we can get together at any time," or, "I can switch careers anytime, start working on that novel at any point. There's nothing stopping me." Yeah, nothing's stopping you, but nothing's starting you.

Hala Taha: People accept themselves to a fault where they just end up using it as an excuse. How can they change that behavior?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, I think the first thing to do is... People would come up to me and they'd be like, "What do I need to do if I'm gonna be happy?" And I would say, "Well, really depends on you," because each of us is very different from each other.

Gretchen Rubin: To be happier, do things that are gonna deepen your relationships or strengthen relationships.

Hala Taha: One of the [00:01:00] biggest reasons for people's unhappiness, especially in 2026, is loneliness. Tell us how we should really think about our relationships.

Gretchen Rubin: Well, that is a really good question. Okay, so...

Hala Taha: Yap fam, today we're welcoming back Gretchen Rubin for her third appearance on Young and Profiting.

Hala Taha: Gretchen is today's most influential voice on happiness, habits, and human nature. She's a best-selling author with millions of copies sold, and her latest book is called Secrets of Adulthood. Today's episode is the greatest hits of Gretchen Rubin through the lens of Secrets of Adulthood. And here's the truth that this episode keeps coming back to.

Hala Taha: Most of us are drifting through parts of our lives without fully realizing it. We fall into careers, habits, and even our biggest life decisions without stopping to ask what's actually true for us. Gretchen's Secrets of Adulthood aren't just clever one-liners. They're hard-won truths about what it really takes to know yourself and build a life around that knowledge.

Hala Taha: So today we're asking, what does it [00:02:00] actually take to live with intention, feel fulfilled, and stop leaving your happiness to chance? Gretchen, welcome back to Young and Profiting Podcast. Hello, I'm glad to be back with you. Yeah, so you are coming back on Yap for the third time. You came on in 2018 when I had just started my podcast, and it was so long ago, it was an audio-only episode.

Hala Taha: And then you came back on in 2022. We talked about New Year's resolutions. We talked about your four tendencies and some of your newer stuff. And today I'm lucky to speak with you again, and you've got a couple new books since we last talked, new-ish books. And I really want to focus on your latest book, which is called The Secrets of Adulthood.

Hala Taha: So my first question to you, Gretchen, I'm gonna just get right into it. What is one secret, something that people really push back on, uh, that people just don't want to accept to be true from your Secrets of Adulthood book?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, I don't, I think people [00:03:00] acknowledge that it's, it's true, but they wish it were not true, which is, um, something that can be done at any time is often done at no time.

Gretchen Rubin: Which is, you know, you think, "Well, we can get together at any time," or, "I can switch careers anytime," or, "I can, you know, start working on that novel at any point. There's... When nothing's stopping me." And it's like, yeah, nothing's stopping you, but nothing's starting you. And so just, I think that's something that, um, people wish were not true, but turns out is true.

Hala Taha: I, I think that's true. I can... If I think back through my own life, I feel like that's happened so many times to me. So why did you decide to write The Secrets of Adulthood? Why did it feel like the right container for you?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, you know, there were a couple things that came together. One is my daughters were getting ready to go off into the world.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, actually, my next book is gonna be about the empty nest as a forced reckoning of adulthood. And so I was thinking about, well, what's, what were some of the secrets of adulthood that I had learned, you know, mostly the hard way through time and experience that I would want to tell my daughters? But then I realized, like, [00:04:00] I need to remind myself of these secrets just as much or more as I need to remind them.

Gretchen Rubin: And I also realized that, um, in my writing, I often would strive to sort of have, uh, to write what's called an aphorism, and this is a short statement where you sort of sum up a big truth about human nature. And, you know, and many of these we're very familiar with, and if an aphorism, uh, you know, it, it becomes a proverb if it's just something that isn't really attached to a particular writer anymore, it's just sort of floated loose in the world.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, one of my favorite proverbs is, "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." So that's a proverb. Um, or maybe that's, like, a Zen saying. Actually, that may be a, from a Buddhist, a Buddhist teaching. But I'd always been trying to write this way, you know, sort of like have a big idea and then really challenge myself to see if I could sum it up in a few words and really, you know, something punchy, um, and, and memorable, and yet contained a big idea in it in a few [00:05:00] words.

Gretchen Rubin: Because sometimes, you know, it's like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you can really wrap it into one sentence, it has a lot more power in the mind. So I wanted to, like, memorialize these secrets of adulthood that I had learned so that I could pass them on, and then as, as a writer, I really enjoyed this challenge of writing very short.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Why is it that these, like, that one line is so much more powerful than, like, having something more descriptive or longer?

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah, you know, that's such a great question, and I think part of it, part of it is just the fluency heuristic, which is that anything that's easier to remember tends to have more power and persuasive, um, effect in our minds.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, uh, that's why if things rhyme, they, they, they seem, they're more catchy and they're more memorable. Um, if it bleeds, it leads. It feels more true because it rhymes, you know? Um, you get what you get, and you don't get upset. Um- And it helps us remember them, because part of the thing about, like, wise sayings is you, you don't forget to remember.

Gretchen Rubin: You're like, "Oh, I [00:06:00] heard this wise saying," but it's not any use to you if it doesn't pop in your head at the right moment. And, um, and I also think there is kind of the, the, the, the satisfaction that we feel when we see that somebody has summed up a, a big idea in a, in a masterful way. I mean, I have... A part of my love of, of aphorisms is I have a giant collection of, uh, hundreds, probably thousands, of other people's aphorisms that I collect, and there's just a very great pleasure in reading, "The true test of a vocation is the love of the drudgery involved."

Gretchen Rubin: You know? I don't even remember who said it, but, but because it says something very eloquent but in a very short s- Well, because you could go on and on. I could have a whole chapter on that idea, right? Yeah. But I like, I like h- And then some of them are funny too, like Yogi Berra is famous for, for his basically aphorisms that, that are, that are just so funny.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, uh, "Be careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there," or, "That restaurant is so popular, nobody goes there anymore." Everybody knows that. I find myself [00:07:00] saying that often. "Oh, this is so popular, nobody wants to come here anymore." It's like, it's a paradox. It's, but it, it... And it's, it's sort of a, uh, it, and it's amusing, um, and it's also a deep truth about human nature.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. And to your point, it's just so eas- so much easier to remember and then- Yes ... actually execute and implement. So you were saying that you originally wanted to, you know, write all of these down so that you could teach them to your daughters as they were going away and starting adulthood themselves, and you found yourself thinking, "Well, this is actually really relevant for me.

Hala Taha: I need to- Yes ... relearn some of these things." What was, like, one secret that you were like, "Man," like, "this is actually for adults. This is actually for, for me and, and other people my age or, um, and all ages"?

Gretchen Rubin: I think if, if I had to pick one that's, like, I think is the most important secret that I've learned, um, and that, like the one, if I could tell, tell everybody, it's, it's the Secret, we wanna accept ourselves and also [00:08:00] expect more from ourselves.

Gretchen Rubin: Because on the one hand, we wanna show ourselves compassion, we want to recognize, like, the actual limits of our nature, because all of us have things that we are and also things that we are not, and that's what we bring into the world. And then we also wanna push ourselves, we want to challenge ourselves, we wanna go outside our comfort zone.

Gretchen Rubin: And the trick is only you know where that line is for you, and only I know where that line is for me. But I wanna accept myself and also expect more from myself. And, um, I think sometimes people kind of fall too far on one side or the other. They're either too accepting and they're kind of... They might let themselves off the hook a little bit more, m- a little more than they ought to, or they're constantly trying to change themselves or push themselves in directions that aren't natural to them.

Gretchen Rubin: And, you know, to a certain point, another a- aphorism that I love is John F. Kennedy, "People do best what comes naturally." And people do do best what comes naturally. And so on the one hand, you wanna, you wanna... Well, [00:09:00] what is natural to me? And then, like, go beyond that a little bit, but still recognize, like, what's true for you.

Gretchen Rubin: Mm-hmm. And, um, I think that I could go on and on about this, but you could just say accept yourself and also expect more from yourself, and that kind of encapsulates it.

Hala Taha: Yeah. And so what about for the people that, to your point, they let themselves off the hook, they accept themselves to a fault where they just end up using it as an excuse?

Hala Taha: How can they change that behavior?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, I think the first thing to do is to recognize it, um, and, and it's to say, like, well, why, why is this not working for me? Why is this not giving me the life that I want? Um, and this ties back into my, my book about, uh, habit change, Better Than Before, because this is very related to loopholes.

Gretchen Rubin: So i- in Better Than Before, I talk about the, about 21 strategies that we can use to make or break our habits, and 21 sounds like a lot, but you need a lot because some work really well for some people, but they don't work for other people. So you wanna know, be, be able to pick and choose. But one of them that is probably [00:10:00] affects all of us is the strategy of loophole spotting, and this is looking for the loopholes that you invoke to let yourself off the hook.

Gretchen Rubin: And we all do that. There's 10 categories of loopholes, and we are like little lawyers for ourselves explaining why you should... You know, why should I not have to exercise today? Hmm. It's raining. I'm sick. I ran yesterday. I've been so good, I deserve some time off. L- uh, life is too short to exercise on a beautiful day when I should be hanging out with my friends.

Gretchen Rubin: And so part of it, I think, is recognizing when you're finding a loophole and letting yourself off the hook even when you know that you would be happier, healthier, more productive, more creative overall if you didn't let yourself off the hook. And, and we all f- my favorite loophole is false choice, and that's, "I'm so busy writing, I don't have time to make a dentist appointment."

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Gretchen Rubin: That's a false choice. I do have time to write and to go m- certainly to make a dentist appointment, and even to go to the dentist. [00:11:00] Um, so that's, that's one of... So I think that's a thing that we all want to be very aware of, is how are we letting ourselves off the hook when actually we should be holding ourselves to, um, to whatever it is that we, we wanna ask of ourselves.

Gretchen Rubin: I love that. Another aphorism, if we give more to ourselves, we can ask more from ourselves. So this is the idea that you wanna give yourself healthy treats. You wanna give yourself comfort. You want to feel like you're v- taken care of when you need a little jolt of energy, which a lot of times we do. You wanna have, have healthy things that you can reach for to give yourself that jolt of energy because you don't wanna, like, do something to make yourself feel better that just ends up making you feel worse.

Gretchen Rubin: But when you give more to yourself, you can ask more from yourself. And so actually, and research shows this, that people who get a little treat, like a little surprise gift, or they watch a funny video, actually their self-control rises. So they have more self-discipline because they've gotten some kind of, like, little boost.

Gretchen Rubin: So we can use this in [00:12:00] our everyday life.

Hala Taha: I love that. I love that. So talk to us about some of the popular sayings or aphorisms that didn't make the book, that you were like, "You know what? This is not a secret to adulthood at all."

Gretchen Rubin: Well, it's funny that you say that, because when I was working on Secrets of Adulthood, um, and, like, and I wrote hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these, I noticed that there, there were three categories.

Gretchen Rubin: So one category was the, was the kind that made it into the book Secrets of Adulthood, and these were, like, useful secrets of adulthood that you could use to make your life better in some way, and things that I had used to make my life better. Then there were ones that I would say are just mere observations, like the tulip is an empty flower.

Gretchen Rubin: I absolutely believe that. I think the tulip is an empty flower. I think that's kind of an interesting observation. But that's just an observation. Like, there's nothing to do with that other than to be like- ... "Huh, okay," and then, like, discuss. But then there were also my dark aphorisms, and these were sort of the [00:13:00] bleaker, uh, secrets of adulthood.

Gretchen Rubin: And what was funny is when I was on my book tour and I was talking about it, a couple times it came up that I had all these bleaker secrets of adulthood, and, uh, you know, every single time somebody raised their hand, it was like, "I wanna know your dark secrets of adulthood." So I was like, nobody wants Gretchen Rubin, the happiness expert, to be talking, um, about, uh, the dark secrets of adulthood.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, but so yeah, so there were, there were many that did not make it in. So let me think of, like, some that, uh, um... You know, how do we judge those who courageously overcome obstacles that they've put in their own way?

Hala Taha: Mm.

Gretchen Rubin: Right? That's just sort of like, oh, that's kind of a downer. So

Hala Taha: you actually started out as a lawyer.

Hala Taha: I did. And, uh, you had an awesome... Like, you studied at Yale, I believe. Yep. You were, like, working for a supreme judge and, and really, like, just on an amazing track. And in our first interview together, we talked about this concept, drift- Yes ... that I never forgot, [00:14:00] to be honest. I've brought it up, like probably every year since we talked, like, on other episodes, and it's, it's a concept that I never really forgot because I feel like it's just so relevant even to this day.

Hala Taha: A lot of people are just, like, drifting into their career. So let's start there. Talk to us about how you ended up drifting into a law career, and what actually snapped you out of it?

Gretchen Rubin: So drift is the decision that we make by not deciding or by making decisions where we don't really take responsibility for the consequences.

Gretchen Rubin: So often we drift because we don't know what else to do. We're just going along with what other people expect from us. Um, maybe we don't wanna have a conflict with somebody. Um, maybe we have an idea of ourselves and this fits that idea, and so we just go ahead and do it without even really reflecting on it.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, and so it's like, you get married because all your friends are getting married. You go to medical school because both your parents are doctors. [00:15:00] Um, you go to medical school because your parents really want you to go to med- medical school and they're putting a lot of pressure on you to go to medical school and you don't know what else to do with yourself, so you're like, "Okay, fine, I'll just go to medical school," 'cause, like, who wants to get into it?

Gretchen Rubin: And it's funny that I say medical school, 'cause you might think, well, nobody would drift into medical school because it's so hard. It's like, oh yes, I've spoken to many, many medical students and many people... The fact that you are drifting does not mean that it's easy. Drift has kind of overtones of, like, laziness or easiness.

Gretchen Rubin: Often when people are drifting, it is hard. So it's very... It can be extremely laborious to be drifting. So I drifted into law school. So my father was a lawyer, he was a very happy lawyer, so I had a, a good m- model in my life of somebody who has really enjoyed being a lawyer. But he put zero pressure on me to be a lawyer.

Gretchen Rubin: He didn't, he di- never argued, s- argued for that at all. But I was like, oh, you know, I'm graduating from college, I don't know what to do, I'm good at research and writing, [00:16:00] it's a great education, I can always change my mind later, it'll help me keep my options open. So I just did it. And it was hard. I mean, from studying for the LSAT to clerking on the Supreme Court for Sandra Day O'Connor, to taking the bar exam, it was hard.

Gretchen Rubin: But I just drifted into it because I didn't know what else to do. And the funny thing about drift, this is part of why it's so tricky, is sometimes you're glad that you did it. I had an amazing experience in law school. I, I'm glad that I went, but looking back on it, I did not go intentionally. It's startling to me how little actual reflection I gave it, especially given how much time, energy, and money was involved.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, sometimes it works out, and so that can be confusing, because some people who drift into things are perfectly happy. Mm-hmm. But don't count on it, because we're not making intentional decisions, and so we really are [00:17:00] not making a mindful choice.

Hala Taha: And I know, uh, I've heard you say before that you heard other lawyers, like, really light up when they talked about being a lawyer, and for you, you, you just didn't feel the same, right?

Gretchen Rubin: No, that was a huge clue. Like, if you're wondering, like, am I drifting, that's one of it, um, is... So here I was, I was clerking on the Supreme Court, so I was with all these, like, really high-powered young lawyers, and I mean, they wanted to talk about it during lunch. They wanted to talk about it over drinks.

Gretchen Rubin: They were reading law journal articles on the weekend. And I... You know, the thing is, I was doing my job very well, you know? But I didn't spend one extra minute on it than I had to. And I could just look around and I could see these people are... I can never match their enthusiasm with my kind of earnest productivity.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, they just love it. And I think about that now as a writer. Like, I just love it. I will, I will edit something- Forever. [00:18:00] I will, I will just wor-- I, I have limitless patience for that. I just... at some point they rip it out of your hands 'cause they have to- ... take it to a printer. Um, but, but I, but I, but I, but I, I, I never get enough of that.

Gretchen Rubin: And, um, and that's... and so that enthusiasm was a sign that, you know, these people were, were feeling something for it that I didn't. Um, and that's not... there was nothing wrong with me, it was just that I was in the wrong place for me, um, over the long term.

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Hala Taha: There's a lot of people out there that, you know, similar to you, drifted with [00:21:00] a medical degree, law degree. Um, they've maybe drifted through a lot of their career. Mm-hmm. And they probably feel like there's a lot of, uh, cost associated with leaving- Yes ... whatever they're doing, and they're really worried about leaving.

Hala Taha: So tell us a secret to adulthood having to do with sunk cost.

Gretchen Rubin: It, it's a big issue, and of course, like, the longer you stay in a path, the harder it gets to go. And I remember when I was, when I was switching from law to writing, there was a moment where I thought, "I better do this now because if I take another major law job, I probably won't be able to step away.

Gretchen Rubin: I'll just feel too committed to it." Um, but at some point, you know, at some point, you- if you wanna make a switch, you just have to say, like, "Well, I, I've gained something from this experience," which certainly we gain from every experience we go through. Even if we gain knowledge in the negative, that's still useful information.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, and, uh, and now I wanna think about what I would, what, what I [00:22:00] would mindfully choose. Um, because yeah, the sunk cost fallacy is just, you know, it's throwing good money after bad. Yeah. And a lot of times people feel... Like, people who are very young who are like, they're like... I remember my daughter when she was, like, 23 was like, "Oh, but I've s- I've, I've gone so far down this path.

Gretchen Rubin: I've invested so much in this path." I was like, "No, you have not." Right? And even me as a lawyer, I could have said, "Hey, I went to law school. I took the bar exam. I have all these credentials. I was editor-in-chief of the law journal. How could I possibly give it up?" And, um, and I did, and it's like now that's so far in the past, a lot of people don't even know that I, I have this whole law side of my, my past.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, so life is long, and, and, um, you know, and I don't wanna sound like I'm just hand waving because obviously it's a huge amount of time, energy, and money to make these switches, and like, and it, and not everybody can take a risk at all times. But often if we stop and, um, and think like, "Well, is there a [00:23:00] way that I could do this?"

Hala Taha: Yeah. It does kinda remind me of the first aphorism that you had mentioned, um, about... It was something about, like, never- Something that

Gretchen Rubin: can be done at any time is often done at no time.

Hala Taha: Sometimes you gotta just make a change or you're just gonna keep going down the same path.

Gretchen Rubin: Yes. Well, and then, and I have an aphorism for that, which is, like, pe- we resist change, and so by the time you've thought that perhaps you should make a change, you probably should have made that change six months ago.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, we don't walk around thinking like, "Maybe I should switch careers," or, "Maybe I should quit my job," because that's like h- human nature is very resistant to change. So once you've started thinking like, "You know what? I don't think I'm so happy here," like, "Well, you know, this is not great," you know, it's probably like, okay, that's a big sign, um, because we are resistant to change typically.

Hala Taha: And I know one of the things, uh, your personal commandment around this season was to be Gretchen. Yes. Yeah. I think you kept telling yourself, "Be Gretchen." Yeah. What did that mean, and what did that require of you in that season?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, yeah, and everybody should you know, [00:24:00] feel free to substitute their own names.

Gretchen Rubin: Of course. Um, but it's this idea that, like, in the end, it- it's, it's again, like, accept yourself. And also expect more from yourself. It's also the idea that no tool fits every hand. Um, because I think sometimes we think like, well, everybody can use a to-do list. Everybody sh- should be able to put things on the calendar and follow through with it.

Gretchen Rubin: Everybody should be able to get up early and get something important done, and if I can't do that, something's wrong with me. Um, but in fact, no tool fits every hand. The most important thing is to know ourselves. It sounds like what could be easier than to know yourself? You just hang out with yourself all day long.

Gretchen Rubin: But it's actually one of the great challenges of our lives. It's very hard to know ourselves. That's another secret of adulthood is, you know, we ha- the only way we can build a happy life is on the foundation of our own interests, our own nature, our own temperament, our own values, and yet it's very hard to know ourselves.

Gretchen Rubin: And so thinking through what is true for you, um, [00:25:00] and not being blinded by what you wish were true or what other people tell you is true or what you think should be true. Like, I didn't realize until quite recently that I don't like games, right? Because ev- the essence of a game is that it's fun, and it just took me a really long time to realize, like, I actually don't like games.

Gretchen Rubin: The only game I like is Uno. That's the only game I like. And so you can say, oh, pickleball, Mahjong, poker. I'm like, "Yeah, but I don't like games."

Hala Taha: And I know that's one of your secrets of adulthood too, which is basically like you don't have to like everything everybody else likes.

Gretchen Rubin: Yes. J- yeah, just because something is fun for somebody else doesn't make it fun for you, and vice versa.

Gretchen Rubin: So this goes to be Gretchen, which is what is true for me. Like, once I know what's true for me, then I can build my life in, you know, with those in mind rather than trying to jam myself into somebody else's idea of what a life should look like.

Hala Taha: So you are one of the top happiness experts in the world, and you basically say that [00:26:00] there's no one-size-fits-all for happiness.

Hala Taha: You say, "No tool fits every hand," and you also describe it like it's also like h- like there's no best way to cook an egg. Everybody likes their, their eggs differently, so everybody's recipe to happiness is going to be different. Talk to us about that.

Gretchen Rubin: The reason that I came up with the phrase about the egg is 'cause people would come up to me and they'd be like, "Okay, what's the secret to ha- like what do I need to do if I'm gonna be happy?"

Gretchen Rubin: And I would say, "Well, really depends on you. Like, what are you struggling with? What do you care about?" I actually made a quiz now on my website, gretchenrubin.com, which is like it will tell you what ha- what habit will do the most for your happiness, you particularly. Like you, Hala. Like what should you do?

Gretchen Rubin: And, and, and very few questions, it will tell you this. Because people ask me this question all the time. But if I can't make somebody take the quiz and they're just asking me in real life, like, "What should I do?" I say to them, "Well, you know, I just, I, I don't know." Because, like, maybe your thing is you don't get enough [00:27:00] sleep, or maybe your thing is you don't see friends, or maybe your thing is you don't...

Gretchen Rubin: You feel a lack of purpose. Like, there's so many things that could be going on. I'd have to sit down and have a really long conversation with you. And the people would be like, "Okay, yeah, I get it. But, like, what's, what's the one thing I need to do?" I just couldn't communicate to them. And so now that's why I started saying to them, "Well, what is the best way to cook an egg?"

Gretchen Rubin: And they would always say to me, like, "Well, I, I don't know. I mean, it depends on how you like to eat your eggs." And then some people say like, "I don't even like eggs." And I'm like, "Right." I can't... There's no one right way to make an egg, cook an egg, and there's no one right way to become happier because each of us is very different from each other.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, now you c- there are certain things that are pretty universal, like relationships. So one of my secrets of adulthood is if you're, to be h- to be happier, um, if you're trying to decide how to spend your precious time, energy, or money, do things that are gonna deepen your relationships or strengthen [00:28:00] relationships because that's always gonna make you happier.

Hala Taha: But that incl- that's very, very broad. It's a good compass, though. It's a good compass 'cause sometimes you've got extra cash, and it's just a good rule of thumb. Like, hey, if I've got ti- extra time or money, I'm gonna actually spend it on my relationships and prioritize that. So it's a great compass, I think.

Gretchen Rubin: No, I, and I use it, that all the time. Or, like, should I go to my college reunion? Like, it's a lot of, it's, it's money. It's a lot of hassle. It's, you know... But I'm like, "Is it gonna go to my relat- Is it gonna deepen and broaden relationships? Yes."

Hala Taha: Mm.

Gretchen Rubin: Or, like, oh, should I send somebody a housewarming gift? Yes, because that's a gesture of friendship, and that makes people feel closer to each other.

Gretchen Rubin: Yep, it is a good compass.

Hala Taha: So you, uh, you mentioned in, in your book that you hate gratitude journals. Yeah. And they, they really frustrate you, which is just so funny because you'd think somebody like you- Yeah ... who loves to write, who, who talks about happiness, everybody says to, to have a gratitude journal.

Hala Taha: They do. So what, what's your gripe on [00:29:00] those?

Gretchen Rubin: I just found it very forced and affected, and it d- it just annoyed me. It didn't give me gratitude. Now, I don't deny that gratitude is an incredibly important part of a happy life, but that particular tool didn't work for me. Another thing that doesn't work for me is meditation.

Gretchen Rubin: I have given it a couple of really solid tries. Same. It's just... Okay, see, there's a whole group of us- Yeah ... who do not find meditation to be helpful. Now, what I do as gratitude instead is, um... So in my, I live in New York City. I live in a building where- There's two door- when you go out, you have to go out two doors, kind of...

Gretchen Rubin: There's sort of a vestibule, and then when you come in, you have to, you have to go in through one door and then come in through a second door. So I sort of use that little thing as a reminder to th- feel grateful. So I always think, "Oh, I'm s- I feel so lucky. I'm here in New York City," a city that I just, I just am so grateful that I lived...

Gretchen Rubin: I, I get to live in New York City. I love it so much, and here I am going out into New York City. And then when I come home, I think, "Oh, I'm so happy to be coming home to my cozy apartment, [00:30:00] like, here. I'm so happy to be coming home." I love... I'm kind of a homebody. I love being home. And so I use the passing between these two doors as a gratitude prompt, and that's probably very much the same thing as using a gratitude journal for somebody else.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, but it's what works for me.

Hala Taha: So since you brought up New York, I know that, uh, one of the things that you're grateful for is the fact that you can see. I, I know that you had a scare at one point, right, with your, your retinas, I believe it was. Mm-hmm. You had a scare, and that really kind of set you on a path to be more grateful for your senses.

Hala Taha: And- Yes ... I also learned that one of the things that you do is you visit The Met quite often to- Yeah, every day ... kind of ex- ex- really? You still do it every day. I still- So talk to us about, uh, how your senses are so important to your happiness and, like, what we need to understand about that, I know you wrote a whole book about it- Mm-hmm

Hala Taha: and some of the ways that, that you really indulge in your senses.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. I wrote Life in Five Senses [00:31:00] 'cause I'm one of these people, I just walk around in a fog. Like, if I'm not paying particular attention, I don't notice anything. I, like... And I was treating my, my body kind of like the car that my brain was driving around town.

Gretchen Rubin: And as you said, I had this brush with, like, thinking about losing my sight, and, uh, it got me just so focused on my five senses and, and, and how much I would regret losing any of them. Of course, I would have a full, rich life if I lost one or more of my senses, but I just didn't wanna keep taking them for granted.

Gretchen Rubin: So I wrote Life in Five Senses 'cause the... for me, research is me-search, and the only way I can learn something is by writing about it. And oh, my gosh, it was such a joy to write Life in Five Senses- Mm ... because I just went deep into all the senses. And the thing i- the thing that's, that's really interesting about the senses that I didn't know until I wrote this book is- For just about anything that you're trying to achieve to make your life happier, healthier, more productive, or more creative, you can use your five senses to get there, even if the things [00:32:00] are opposite from each other.

Gretchen Rubin: Mm. So let's say you wanna be more creative and think outside the box, you can use your five senses. Let's say you need to sit down and do your drudge work and just produce, you can use your five senses for that. You can use your five senses to connect with the past, but you can also use your five senses to connect with the present.

Gretchen Rubin: You can use your five senses to, like, feel more, like, more of the joy of solitude, but it also is an amazing way to connect with other people. So it's like anything... Y- you can use it if you, if you're feeling, like, really jang- if your nerves are jangled and you're feeling stressed out and you need some calm and serenity, you can harness your five senses for that.

Gretchen Rubin: But if you're feeling, like, low energy and you need to, like, pump it up and energize yourself and, like, give yourself a jolt, you can use your five senses for that. So- Mm ... whatever it is that you need to achieve, say to yourself, "How might I use my five senses to help me achieve this aim for myself?" And the thing is, we know our five senses.

Gretchen Rubin: The... And so people will often, like, in just a few minutes [00:33:00] generate a lot of creative ideas about how to use their five senses for, like, to stay calm, let's say, to stay serene, or to feel focused or whatever it might be. And, and the thing that I find over and over is that people really look forward to that.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, there's something very energizing about getting back in touch with our bodies. And so when people start thinking about that, they tend to, like, feel really optimistic, really s- re- really, like, kind of excited about the prospect of trying things and experimenting. Um, there's a lot of power that comes to us through our five senses, and we like to tap into that.

Hala Taha: Can you give us some concrete examples of, like, the way that you use, like, a specific sense to, like, for example, like, stop procrastinating and get something done or to, to relax? Like, what are some of the ways that you recommend we use our five senses?

Gretchen Rubin: Okay, so let's say you wanted to stop procrastinating.

Gretchen Rubin: So you could use your sense of touch. You could put a weighted blanket in your lap, so it's like it's physically putting you, like, holding you into place, and that makes it easier to sort of, like, feel, um, settled. [00:34:00] Mm. You might, um, get into a practice of lighting a candle every time you're, like, really sitting down to focus.

Gretchen Rubin: This is, like, a s- a thing that kind of will start to signal your brain, okay, now we're sitting, now we're focusing. And over time, like, you will start to, like, fall into that mode. Like, when... And even the ritual of lighting the candle itself is like, okay, now I'm signaling to myself, we're mo- we're moving into focus mode, right?

Gretchen Rubin: This is what's happening But you also might go walk, look around your office and r-remove things that might be distracting you. So papers are out of place, tabs that are open, you know, you bring down the visual noise. Um, you also might want to bring down the audio noise. Like, do you have notifications on?

Gretchen Rubin: Or thing... Is there anything, like, beeping? Is there an annoy- Like, do you have a squeaky chair? Um, you might, you know, so you wanna... And then also with, uh, with, uh, uh, v- uh, visual noise, it's like, is your- do you have enough light or too much light? Like, if you go like this and you feel relief in your eyes, that means that there's too much light coming into your face.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, some of these [00:35:00] things, um, you know, we just, we ju- Or I, I talked to somebody who, I mean, this is years after COVID, right? She'd started working from home, and she still sat in a dining room chair to do... for her whole workday. And I was like, "You cannot. That's so uncomfortable." A dining room chair is not meant to be sat in for, you know, eight hours.

Gretchen Rubin: You've gotta invest in a chair.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, but so it's like really thinking about, like, what is my physical experience? What is my visual experience? Like, what am I smelling? What am I, what am I... I, um, I find, and people, um, tell me this isn't a good idea, but I will s- uh, like, bite on a plastic straw, and that helps me, like having something in my mouth or, like, sucking on an Ice Mint.

Gretchen Rubin: I li- I like Ice Breakers. Um, I think that's what they're called. Yeah, Ice Breakers are, like, sugarless mints, and I have one in my mouth, and it's like all these things, it's like, okay, now focus. Um, and so but g- you might find it t- Here's an interesting question, Hala, okay, about noise. Yeah. If you're really trying to [00:36:00] focus, right?

Gretchen Rubin: Let's say you're doing the hardest kind of intellectual work is for you. Do you want silence, busy hum, like coffee shop, music with no lyrics, music with lyrics, or cacophony, like being in a train station? What is the best environment- I like

Hala Taha: silence. I like pure silence.

Gretchen Rubin: Me too, right? But people are really different, and you often see this with, like, in the office where they're like, "Oh, research shows that having jazz playing makes people more creative."

Gretchen Rubin: And it's li- And I'm like, "I don't care what research shows, but I cannot have music- Yeah ... playing when I'm trying to focus," right? Like, people are really different. I know somebody who, for his PhD thesis, like, went to a train station in Boston and just sat there while the trains were coming in and out because for him, kind of loud sounds kind of got him to focus.

Gretchen Rubin: So again, this goes right back to this idea. It's, it's know yourself. It's not that there's one... Because people are like, "Oh, research shows [00:37:00] that it's better to be in a messy office. That does XYZ." I'm like, "Maybe, but maybe that's not gonna be true for you. What is true for you?" So do you want lots of, do you want lots of sound?

Gretchen Rubin: Very little sound? Do you like lots of stimulation, like- buzz and profusion and collections and like that ma- that stimulates you or do you wanna bring down the noise? But and then, but then you wanna think about things like comfort because for most people it's like having an uncomfortable chair, it's just gonna tire you out and make you more like wanna jump out of your seat, not even because of your work, but because you're just physically not comfortable.

Gretchen Rubin: And so by d- like really taking the time and thinking like, "What is my sensory experience of sitting in this chair, and what can I do to help just c- create an environment where everything is gonna support me in whatever it is that I am trying to achieve?"

Hala Taha: So tell us about why you go to The Met every day.

Hala Taha: Mm. To me that kinda seems like a, like a grounding experience or like a commute that you're taking every day. Uh, why do you go to The [00:38:00] Met every day?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, first I should say I'm incredibly lucky 'cause I live within walking distance to The Met, so I never forget about... As, as I'm walking to The Met, I'm always like, "I am so lucky that I live within walking distance-

Gretchen Rubin: to The Met." And I'm a New York State resident, so I get to go for free, though I did, I did join, you know, to support The Met since I'm going all the time. Yeah. But I did, I didn't, I could go for free. Um, do you know for me, on different days it's different things. Sometimes it's just a chance to daydream and let my mind off the leash, you know, I'm just like walking around, looking at stuff.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, sometimes, you know, it's really good, um, just for cr- like a creative like somehow input, like an unpredictable creative input. Like I'll go to an exhibit and there'll be a new idea or I'll see two things juxtaposed. Like recently I had an experience where, um, like I love Egyptian art, you know, and there's so many hieroglyphics and I, um, I'm a v- I'm a real rule follower in my Four Tendencies framework.

Gretchen Rubin: I'm an upholder. I'm really into like that, that ever. And in, [00:39:00] in Egyptian art, the, the symbol for this and it, and the god is Maat, um, which is like this very particular shape that is the shape of Maat. And if you look around Egyptian hieroglyphics you see it everywhere. And I was like in a I was in a taxi going by a gas station and I was like, "Oh my gosh, it's Maat."

Gretchen Rubin: And it was like a s- it was like a sign that was exactly in the symbol of Maat. And I'm like, "That's just fun," and if I weren't going to The Met every single day, I don't think that I would know that. It's just like over time you, you know, you just learn these like most, you know, odd little, little things.

Gretchen Rubin: And, um- And it's also m- you know, in addition of, like, looking at beautiful art and, like, coming out of myself and really being, um, t- I'm tied to transcendent values, like art and scholarship and culture. I'm with people from all over the world who are, like, all joined together in this common interest. It's, it's a beautiful space.

Gretchen Rubin: It's a reverent space. Um, also, like, I'm on my feet moving around. That's good for me. I'm going outside, [00:40:00] uh, getting the light in my face. Um, unless I go on Friday or Saturday night because then you can go at night because The Met stays open late on Fridays and Saturdays. That's super fun to go at night, but usually I go during the day.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, just being outside, just getting light in your face, these are all so good for me. So there's just so many reasons why this, this is good for me, but the real reason that I do is just, for me, it's like recess. It's like I just... I need a break in my day, and I'm just like, "Okay, now I'm gonna go," and, uh, it's, it's, it's something that I just, I do whatever I feel like.

Gretchen Rubin: I don't have anything that I need to cross off a list or do, unless I decide that I want to.

Hala Taha: Do you think there's something about routines that make us happier? 'Cause I feel like when I'm in my routine, I'm happiest.

Gretchen Rubin: Well, that is a really good question. Okay, so w- just generally, about 40% of everyday life is formed by habit, so, like, a good part of your life is gonna be formed by habit.

Gretchen Rubin: How satisfying people find this, and this goes to my Four Tendencies framework because I do think that some [00:41:00] people really thrive on routine. They embrace routine. Like, like me, I would say discipline is my freedom, and I find it incredibly freeing and energizing. I often try to do things every day because I just, I feel like I just like that.

Gretchen Rubin: It sounds like maybe you're the same way. Other people, like in my framework, often rebels, don't like that. They don't like a routine. They like to have a lot of spontaneity and novelty. They, like, might do something where there's a lot of shaking things up, things that are less expected, whereas I would almost, like, have the life of a Benedictine monk if I could-

Gretchen Rubin: and, like, do every single thing at the exact same time every day. I love that. Um, so I really think that people are very different, and again, it's like, it's not that one way is the right way and one way is the wrong way. It's what is the right way for you? And to the extent that you can, how do you make your life reflect- Your preferences.

Gretchen Rubin: 'Cause we don't all have total control over our lives, as you may have noticed. Um, but there are things that we can do. [00:42:00] Like I, for exercise, I do strength training twice a week. It's exactly the same. It's in the same place with the same trainer. I'm doing the same kind of exercises, and I love that. But like I know rebels, those are the people who like to have like a lot of novelty, they might go to a huge gym where they do a different kind of exercise every single time they go, or they might, you know, have a pass so they can take classes all over town so that they're like, "Today I feel like yoga, but today I feel like cardio, and today I feel like trying this, like, bonkers new form of, you know, weight training that I just learned about."

Gretchen Rubin: Um, they like that. So it's not that one way is right and one way is wrong, it's just whatever works for a particular person.

Hala Taha: Well, like I said, I wanted today's episode to be like a greatest hits, so of course we have to go over your four tendencies. Oh, okay. You definitely just, just teased it. So it's upholder, questioner, obliger, and rebel.

Hala Taha: So for anybody who hasn't listened to one of our episodes in the past together, talk to us about each one of these personality types.

Gretchen Rubin: So the four tendencies [00:43:00] is a framework that divides people into four categories, um, upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels, and I will describe these briefly, and most people know what they are right away.

Gretchen Rubin: If you wanna take a quiz, you can take the quiz on my site, GretchenRubin.com. Like three and a half million pe- people have taken this quick, free quiz. Um, but often you don't even need to take the quiz. You just know from the description. Mm-hmm. So it has to do with how we respond to expectations. So we all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations, like a work deadline, and inner expectations, like your desire to keep a New Year's resolution.

Gretchen Rubin: So depending on whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations, that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner, obliger, rebel. This is like a Venn diagram of four interlocking circles. So in a nutshell, upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss.

Gretchen Rubin: They wanna know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are [00:44:00] just as important. They can sometimes be rigid, um, because once they get an idea in their head, they like to execute on that. They don't need a lot of supervision or accountability. Um, their motto is, "Discipline is my freedom."

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Gretchen Rubin: Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they're looking for rationale, reasons, justifications. They tend to love to customize. They're fo- very focused on efficiency. So they're making everything an inner expectation. If it meets their inner expectation, they will do it, no problem.

Gretchen Rubin: If it fails their inner expectation, they push back. So their motto is, "I'll comply- If you convince me why.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Gretchen Rubin: Then there are obligers. This is the biggest tendency for both men and women. This is the one that has the most people in it. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations.

Gretchen Rubin: So these are the people who say, "Why is it that I can keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to [00:45:00] myself?" The short answer for obligers is even to meet an inner expectation, they must have a form of outer accountability. So if you wanna read more, join a book group where you really have to read the book.

Gretchen Rubin: If you wanna exercise, take a class where they'll charge you if you don't show up, work out with a friend who'll be annoyed if you don't show up, raise money for a charity, think of your duty to be a role model. There's all kinds of ways to have outer accountability once you know that's what you need. Um, obligers are great leaders, great team members, great friends, great family members, 'cause they're the people that tend to go the extra mile.

Gretchen Rubin: But they're disappointed in themselves because they're like, "Why can't I keep my promises to myself?" So their motto is, "You can count on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me."

Hala Taha: Mm.

Gretchen Rubin: And then finally, rebels. This is the smallest group. Rebels resist outer and inner expectations alike. They wanna do what they wanna do in their own way, in their own time.

Gretchen Rubin: They can do anything they wanna do. They can do anything they choose to [00:46:00] do, but if you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist, and typically, they don't tell themselves what to do. Like, they don't sign up for the 10:00 AM spin class because they think, "I don't know what I'm gonna wanna do on the weekend, and just the fact that I'm supposed to show up somewhere is gonna annoy me."

Gretchen Rubin: So their motto is, "You can't make me." And neither can I. But like once you know these, you can do Game of Thrones characters, you can do Office characters, you can... There, there's all sorts of movies that have these tendencies in them, because they're really easy to spot once you know what to look for.

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Hala Taha: Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. I think, like, as you were saying that, I, I think I'm an upholder, but [00:49:00] I, I think I have a little bit of rebel, but And I think I'm more of an upholder.

Gretchen Rubin: Well, it's interesting because rebels sometimes think they are upholders, but upholders never think that they are rebels.

Gretchen Rubin: Oh, really? Then maybe I'm a rebel. So I would love to, I would love to know if you're a rebel, if you're just a highly disciplined rebel, or if you're just an upholder who, um- Well,

Hala Taha: like, I always sign up for workout classes, and I always... I'm always, like, you know, signing up for things and, and going to things.

Hala Taha: But I also am an entrepreneur, and I don't like being told what to do. Like, that's why I'm an entrepreneur, you know? So...

Gretchen Rubin: But if something's important to you, do you find it... If you've decided you wanna stick to something, is that pretty easy for you to do? Super

Hala Taha: easy. I, I never need accountability. I always get things done.

Hala Taha: I always hit deadlines. I always... You know, I've been doing this podcast for eight years, never missed an episode. Like, I... You know what I mean?

Gretchen Rubin: If somebody told you to do something, like if I said to... Okay, here's a question for you. Let's say you and I are, were in a coffee shop, and it's, it's very, it's very empty.

Gretchen Rubin: Not even [00:50:00] the waitstaff is back there. Um, it's just you and me, and there's a big sign on the wall that says, "Absolutely no cell phone use," and I pull out my cell phone and start using it. How would you feel?

Hala Taha: I wouldn't care. You wouldn't

Gretchen Rubin: care?

Hala Taha: Like, I would... If you were, like, talking loud and being rude, then I would care.

Hala Taha: But if you were just, like, on your phone and not being, not being loud, then I'd, like, leave you alone. I wouldn't, I wouldn't cause a stink. But if you were talking on the phone, I'd... I'm the type of person that, like, I will say, like, interrupt people when things are wrong. So, like, I, I would, I guess, like, in that example, if you were talking, I'd be like, "Hey, can you get off your phone?"

Gretchen Rubin: How do you feel about New Year's resolutions?

Hala Taha: I stick to them. I like

Gretchen Rubin: them. So I think maybe you are an upholder. Um, the... You sounded like a questioner there, because you were sort of like, "Well, why..." By ques- Because it sounded like you were saying, "Why is there the rule? If it's not, if it's not making sense, you don't have to do it."

Gretchen Rubin: But upholders tend to... But, but questioners tend not to like New Year's resolutions 'cause- I feel like I'm

Hala Taha: opposite of a questioner. I get annoyed- O- ... from people [00:51:00] who question it. Like, I'm more of- Okay ... like, an executor.

Gretchen Rubin: Okay. Well, questioners are executors, too, but they only execute if they understand why.

Hala Taha: Hmm.

Gretchen Rubin: So they would say they're excellent. They would say they are the best at executing, because everybody else is more likely to do something for the wrong reasons. But anyway, Hala- ... you have to take the quiz and tell me exactly- Yeah, I clearly need to take the quiz ... because, because... And, and I will say this, sometimes people really do...

Gretchen Rubin: They're like, "I, I, I can't decide if I'm this or I'm that." I have a book where I write about it, and usually when people read a chapter, like, there's lots of people of that tendency speaking. And almost imp- people are like, "Oh, I say that. I say that. I say that. That sounds like me. My wife says that about me all the time."

Gretchen Rubin: It's like it jumps out at you once you know them. Um, I think sometimes when I describe them very briefly, sometimes people, like, lock in. It's, it's hard to give the whole flavor of it. Yeah. Um- Uh, if I sat with you for half an hour and, like, just asked you question after question, I could probably figure you out.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. But I don't think... But nobody wants to listen to that. But it is [00:52:00] super... But it's a really useful thing to know, because all I have to say, like if I, if I knew you were a rebel versus you're an upholder versus a questioner versus an obliger, I might communicate with you in a very, very different way.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. Because I would know that, like, certain things you respond to and certain things might kind of set your teeth on edge. Yeah. So I would speak to you in a way so that I make sure that I'm, we're communicating as effectively as possible.

Hala Taha: Yeah. So, so you had mentioned that obligers is the largest group.

Hala Taha: Yes. So let's go back to Secrets of Adulthood. What is one secret that you think every obliger needs to know so that they don't get burned out, so they don't burn themselves out trying to just people-please everybody?

Gretchen Rubin: It's not selfish to be self-ish.

Hala Taha: Mm.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, that you have to think about yourself. When you give more to yourself, you can ask more from yourself.

Gretchen Rubin: We talked about that earlier. You know, well, well, this isn't an af- this isn't an original secret of adulthood for me, but you often hear people quote it who are obligers, which is, "Put on your own oxygen mask first." Mm,

Hala Taha: mm-hmm. And people

Gretchen Rubin: [00:53:00] often say this to obligers because obligers are often, like, so busy helping other people with their oxygen masks, that they're not getting enough oxygen.

Gretchen Rubin: It's like, okay, you've gotta take care of yourself, if only to help you care for others. And I have to say, as an upholder, when, when obligers would express that kind of idea, like, "I need to take care of myself so I can care for others," that would sort of annoy me. I would be like, "Look, you matter. Like, take care of yourself for yourself.

Gretchen Rubin: You don't need to justify taking care of yourself because it's gonna be good for somebody else." But now I realize that wasn't, that really wasn't helpful, that that idea is actually a very powerful idea for an obliger, and if that is a kind of accountability that they're invoking to help care for themselves, then that's really useful, and I don't, I, I never would wanna argue against somebody, something, an idea that's working well for them.

Gretchen Rubin: And so I think many, many obligers will say things like, um, "I put, I've gotta put on my own oxygen mask first," or, "I have to care for myself if I'm gonna care for others." It's like, okay, well, maybe that's a really helpful idea for you.

Hala Taha: Mm-hmm. Uh, for the [00:54:00] questioners out there, in a business context, what are some of the, the pros and the cons of being a questioner, and how can they avoid analysis paralysis and, and some of the negative things that come along with being a questioner?

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah, some questioners do fall into analysis paralysis, and this is when their desire for perfect information makes it hard for them to move forward or, uh, make a decision. And it's a problem because in this life, and a lot of times in the workplace, we can't wait for perfect information, or we can't get perfect information, and that can be really...

Gretchen Rubin: That can be, um, uh... One questioner described it to me as the black hole of research, that, like, the pull of it, the, just the gravitational force to do more and more and more research. Like, she had to really fight against it because she just wanted to do so much research. Now, of course, this is, this is an enormous strength, and in many situations it would be maybe one of your superpowers, is, like, you just love research and you're gonna really figure out what is the best solution, but sometimes it can become too much.

Gretchen Rubin: You can drain and overwhelm others with [00:55:00] constant questioning. This is something that people around questioners will often talk about, that they feel like the questioners are asking too many questions. Actually, that's a sign of a questioner. As I say, like, as a kid, did people tell you you asked too many questions?

Gretchen Rubin: Hmm. And so q- questioners need to learn how to ask questions in a way that feels constructive to other people and doesn't feel like, like you're constantly undermining people's authority or questioning their judgment or, like, acting as a bottleneck. Mm-hmm. You have to figure out how to do that in a constructive way.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, with analysis paralysis, there's a couple things that you can do if y- if you feel like you're prone to it. One is deadlines. Give yourself a deadline and say, you know, "Look, by the end of the month, I need to make a decision. It's not efficient to keep researching this. I need to just move forward. I can always sh- you know, if it doesn't work out, that'll be information, but it's not efficient to, like, keep postponing the decision," because it's an appeal to efficiency, which is really high value for a questioner.

Gretchen Rubin: Another is trusted authority. Okay, I can l- you know, this team is using this platform, and we really trust their, [00:56:00] their work and their research, and if they feel like this platform works for them, then I can believe that it will work for my team, too. I don't have to reinvent the wheel. I can use trusted authority.

Gretchen Rubin: And other is limits. Like, okay, I'm gonna look at five possibilities for this decision, but not 20 Like five is enough to give me a range. I'll, uh, you know, I'll get a good list, and then I'll look at these five, and then I'll make a decision. Again, it's not efficient. Sometimes, like, you just, it's not a good use of your time and energy to, like, run down every single detail, and there are things where, you know, what is the best bike?

Gretchen Rubin: I mean, you could research that for the rest of your life, right? By the time you're done looking at all the options, there's new options. So part of being a questioner is learning to manage that desire for perfect information.

Hala Taha: Yeah. Uh, question about rebels. Mm. So you said that they, like, you know, they, they don't, they're not accountable to others.

Hala Taha: They're also not accountable to themselves. So how can, you know, somebody who's a rebel or who has a rebel in their life, help nudge them to actually do [00:57:00] something? Or like, what's the way to help them actually make a change or, or, um, be accountable?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, that is a really great question because people around rebels are often frustrated, and rebels often get frustrated with themselves 'cause they can't make themselves do whatever, you know, what it is they wanna get done.

Gretchen Rubin: So there's a couple different strategies to try. Um, one is an appeal to identity. So identity is super important for rebels, and so if you tie a, a behavior or a habit to an identity, then the rebel wants to do it because it's part of their identity. So you're an artist, you're an entrepreneur, you're a reliable partner, you're a loving parent, you're an environmentalist.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, all of these identities carry with them actions, behaviors, habits. And so the more somebody is thinking about their identity, the more they're gonna do it. So if you're like, "Look, I'm a successful entrepreneur, and like, I have to send my invoices out on time," that's the kinda thing that rebels don't like to do.

Gretchen Rubin: It's repeated. It's boring. Ugh. [00:58:00] But it's like, "If I'm a r- if I'm a successful entrepreneur, I'm sending out my invoices, and I'm getting paid for my work." And so then it's tied to an identity, instead of like, "You have to do this. You should do this. I'm telling you to do this. I'm reminding you to do this," right?

Gretchen Rubin: It's like, no, it's not that. It's like, it's who I am, 'cause I'm an entrepreneur. Um, another thing is information, consequences, choice. This is when you give the rebel the information they need. You tell them the consequences of their action or inaction, and then you just let them choose. And, you know, like if you were at work, you could say, um, okay, you know, like, let's say this rebel isn't coming to this mandatory weekly staff meeting that everybody else goes to.

Gretchen Rubin: They just don't go. You could say, "Do you know what we do at that weekly staff meeting? We look at all the upcoming projects, and we decide who gets what."

Hala Taha: Mm. "

Gretchen Rubin: And whoever's in the meeting takes the most interesting projects, and then we assign the boring ones to ever- whoever's not in the meeting." So the meeting is Wednesday at 10:00 AM, [00:59:00] right?

Gretchen Rubin: And you... It's just like come if you want or don't, and then that's just the consequence. Or like, you know, or, or you could, if you had a client, you could say, um, "You can get this to me by Friday, or you can get it to me by Monday. You know, on, after Monday, there's gonna be $1,000 penalty for, you know, because you've, we've gone past our agreed date, but whatever works for you."

Gretchen Rubin: It's like, you can get it in on time, or you can pay the 1,000 bucks. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just giving you the information that you need. What is it you would like to do? Hand it in on Friday or pay the $1,000? You can pay the $1,000. And then no nudging, no reminding, no rescuing, no praising, because these can all be interpreted by a rebel as a, as an attempt to control, and that is what they do not like.

Gretchen Rubin: They do not like to be controlled. In fact, sometimes they can be kind of like controlled by their desire not to be controlled. Like, like with sort of, uh, psychology, like, "Someone like you could never get this done by Friday." Or I, I remember ta- [01:00:00] you know, um, somebody I know quit smoking because his 18-year-old son said to him, "Dad, an old guy like you could never quit smoking.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, you've been addicted so long. The tobacco companies have you right where they want you. You could never kick the habit." And he's like, "Oh, yeah? Watch me." Mm. And he quit smoking that day, right? Because it's like, you think you're in control? No, I'm in control. You're not telling me what to do. So but, you know, sometimes we get in their way.

Gretchen Rubin: We try to help them. We try to encourage them. We like pr- give them, you know. And it's like, no, you gotta get out of the way. You gotta let a rebel decide what they're gonna do. Because in the end, they will do what they wanna do. You cannot make them do what you want them to do. And I mean, this is really hard.

Gretchen Rubin: It's really hard with rebel children Um, it's really hard. It, it can be, it, y- it, it... But they, you realize how free we all are when you are with a rebel. That is the great thing that I have learned from rebels, is we are all more free than we think.

Hala Taha: Well, the, that Four Tendencies framework is just so useful, so [01:01:00] I highly recommend anybody to go grab that book, take that quiz, learn who you are.

Hala Taha: I feel like it just helps you with your relationships. So let's talk about relationships, because I know that's one of the most important things. I think one of the biggest reasons for people's unhappiness, especially in 2026, is loneliness, right? And the cure for loneliness is relationships. So first off, just, just start us off with, like, your thoughts around the current state of people's loneliness and how we should really think about our relationships.

Gretchen Rubin: Again, it's this happiness principle of, like, if you're thinking about spending your time, energy, or money spending it on relationships, really making relationships a very, very high priority. And people have very different preferences. Like, some people wanna, like, walk into a group of, you know, like, a, a bustling cocktail party, and then some people wanna just, like, sit down with one or two friends.

Gretchen Rubin: So again, you wanna think about what's true for you. Um, but, uh, but really relationships are at the core of a happy life. At work, when [01:02:00] people say, "Who's happy at work?" It's somebody who says, "I have a friend at work," meaning, I have somebody who has my back. I have somebody to whom I could confide an important secret.

Gretchen Rubin: So this isn't just somebody that you're having fun conversation with, this is somebody who you really, like, feels invested in you. Also, when you look at, at people who are happy at work, it's like, it's that the person that they directly report to cares about them and wants to help them succeed, not the visionary leader at the top.

Gretchen Rubin: It's like that person right above you who you feel like, "This person cares about me." So these relationships, when they look at people who are happy at work, they see this over and over. One of the big challenges of our time is work from home, flexible workspace. We just always took it for granted that if you were working, you were with all these people, and the world was set up with that.

Gretchen Rubin: We didn't think about, how do you build team spirit when everybody's remote? How do you create intimacy across time zones? How do you learn the truth about somebody when they [01:03:00] just are, like, a flat avatar and you, like, you don't even know how tall they are because you've never seen them in person? I mean, these are challenges that I think are, are really...

Gretchen Rubin: Like, in some way, flexible work is great for relationships, but sometimes it can make it really hard, and so I think it's really something for us all to think about. How am I making new friends? How am I building relationships? How am I, um... I'm a big fan of, um- Uh, groups, like, uh, starting a group- Mm-hmm

Gretchen Rubin: because a group is a much better way to... It's a much more efficient way to see people. And a lot of, you know, uh, uh, it- it's time is really limited for people. And so if you can have a group of people, and if you miss one, you miss one, but you'll see them next time, and then you just see them over and over, um, that is something that can really help you build friendships over time.

Gretchen Rubin: Like, people have book clubs, but there's a lot. You could, you could pick and do it around anything that you're interested in.

Hala Taha: I feel like a lot of adults have a lot of acquaintances. And, [01:04:00] and you just brought up groups. Yeah. But something that I found in groups is that because you don't get one-on-one time with people, everything is just so surface level.

Hala Taha: And then, like, when push comes to shove, you don't feel like that person's, like, actually your friend. Like, if, if I think about my real friends, they're the ones that I've known for, like, five years, that I've spent a lot of one-on-one time, or, like, the ones I went to high school with. Like, those are my real friends.

Hala Taha: But then when I think about the groups that I've made, they just feel like acquaintances. So, like, how do we, uh, m- take it to the next level and, and actually create, like, a real friendship with someone from a group?

Gretchen Rubin: I'm so glad you brought that up. That's such an important distinction that I think a lot of people miss.

Gretchen Rubin: And, um, you know, I, I, I think I mentioned that I'm writing a book about the empty nest period, which I'm rebranding as the open door period. And one thing a lot of people un- uh, find out is they thought they had friends because they, like, had social time, and people were texting back and forth. And they, you know, they, they were seeing [01:05:00] people over and over, but they were really friendly acquaintances.

Gretchen Rubin: They weren't friends. Mm-hmm. So to ma- turn an acquaintance into a friend, you have to go... You have to take that relationship the next step, and you, and you named one of them. You have to do things by yourself. You have to say to somebody, "Hey, do you wanna see this movie with me?" Or, "Hey, I love to hike, too.

Gretchen Rubin: Do you wanna try this hike together?" You have to, like, say, "I..." Or, or invite the person to your home. Go on a double date with them. Um, give them a gift when it's their birthday or something important. Follow up with them. "How was your mother's surgery? I've been thinking about you." These are things where it's one-on-one.

Gretchen Rubin: It's not the group text. It's not the group show up. It's you and me together showing that we're, like, we're more important to each other. And here's something that's really helpful. Sometimes that feels really awkward. You feel like it just feels so awkward to be like, "Hey, do you wanna get a cup of coffee with me?"

Gretchen Rubin: But what research shows is that people are actually very open to this. There's, um, when some- one of the things [01:06:00] we like most about people is if we think they like us. And so if you make a gesture that's like, "Hey, Hala, I like you. I would like to spend a little time just with you," then you're like, "Oh, Gretchen, y- I like your taste," you know?

Gretchen Rubin: And so we tend to ... They tend to ... Even if you feel a little awkward doing it, people tend to welcome these much more than you might think, and people understand the value of it. And so if it does feel a little forced, that's okay. And the wor- and the worst thing that can happen is they aren't interested, and sometimes people are like they've got so much going on, they just literally don't have time to do something or to invest in, in a person, and that, that's probably true for all of us at certain times of our lives.

Gretchen Rubin: And so try not to take it personally, and just say like, "You know, I've just ... You know, that was ... I, I tried it, and it didn't work out." Mm-hmm. I have people in my life that I thought, "Oh, I thought we could be friends," but they don't seem to wanna be friends, and it's like, "Okay, I got other friends," you know? But you gotta try.

Gretchen Rubin: You gotta take your shots. And, [01:07:00] um, but it's really, really valuable. Um, so I think these acquaintances are a great starting ground. They're great fodder. Um, the ... And, and then really say like who, who would, um, who would I wanna deepen it with? Who do I wanna sort of take it one-on-one with? But you're right.

Gretchen Rubin: Don't, don't think that because you see them often They're friends. Totally. Because they may not be true friends.

Hala Taha: Yep, I totally agree. And I feel like I've had... So I just moved to Austin, right? So I moved to Austin about 14 months ago, and I've made a lot of friends, a lot of acquaintances. I just had a big birthday, and there was a group of women that I met all the time for dinner, like, in a big group.

Hala Taha: So many of my friends from, like, New York, they flew out to Austin for my birthday. Like, 20 people flew out for my birthday. Wow. I had, like, a big birthday with, like, 80 people. Wow. But then nobody from this women's group, almost nobody showed up, even though I would... Those I thought were, like, my new friends that I had made from...

Hala Taha: You know what I mean? Interesting. And I was like, "Oh, I guess I gotta do more one-on-one time," [01:08:00] you know, because- Yeah ... like, and then that, that really clicked for me.

Gretchen Rubin: It might be that in three years of meeting- Exactly ... they would, because then you would've had the time and you would've sat next to them and you would've seen them over and over, and that would've gotten deeper.

Hala Taha: Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: But it's maybe too soon. Yeah. It's all kind of just like, "Okay, we're all just getting acquainted." Exactly. It was a learning lesson.

Hala Taha: Okay, cool. So, uh, let's, let's... This was an awesome interview. I feel like we really covered a lot. We've listeners of all ages on this podcast, so there's definitely people who have their kids leaving and, you know, you, you talk about this concept of, um, empty nest, and now you call it an open door.

Hala Taha: So why are you writing this book, and, and what's the flip on that?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, I'm fa- You know, as somebody who studies happiness, I'm fascinated because it's a, it's a, kind of a forced reckoning of adulthood. And for most adults, you know, new possibilities come into view. Um, old problems that have been maybe ignored also come into view.

Gretchen Rubin: Um, it's, for [01:09:00] many people, it is a very profound reckoning. It's a very big milestone. And of course, it happens to different people at different times. Your child might go to the military. Maybe you feel it most when your oldest child goes, not when your youngest child goes. There's all, there's, there's sort of all different ways that it can hit you.

Gretchen Rubin: But there's usually a time where you sort of feel like, "Okay, I, I am entering into a new season of life, and I'm not the kind of active parent that I was." And so- What, what does that mean for me? And for some people, that's a lo-las-lack of purpose. For some people, it's a loss of identity. For some people, it's just like they don't know what to do with their time.

Gretchen Rubin: Other people feel... Some people feel relieved and energized, and they're like, they're... It- it's, it's a, it's a bonus. Others don't feel that way. For a lot of people, it's a mix. There's kind of grief and relief. Mm-hmm. Um, and so the book is an attempt to sort of help people understand what they're feeling because, again, my whole thing is everybody acts like everybody has the same experience, but they really do not.

Gretchen Rubin: It's very profound differences, [01:10:00] and once you really understand what you're experiencing, you can address it. And also, if you're with somebody else who's having a very different experience, you can have more empathy because you can understand like, "Okay, I'm feeling this way, but you're feeling that way."

Gretchen Rubin: Because sometimes people are just, they're so baffled by each other that they really c- they can't communicate effectively. So I hope it will just give people a lot of clarity on, um, on themselves and others.

Hala Taha: So I, I... In my show, I ask the same question to all my guests. It's usually, what is the secret to profiting in life?

Hala Taha: But we've been talking about secrets this, this whole episode. So my question to you is, if, if our young and profiters could just stick to one secret of adulthood, what would it be and why?

Gretchen Rubin: Accept yourself and also expect more from yourself. I feel like in the end, that covers everything.

Hala Taha: Well, Gretchen, thank you so much for joining us today on Young and Profiting podcast.

Hala Taha: Where can everybody learn about you and everything

Gretchen Rubin: that you do? Gretchenrubin.com. You can listen to my podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. You can sign up for my 5 Things Making Me Happy [01:11:00] newsletter. You can read my books. I have a lot of quizzes about happiness. You can take the quizzes, but you can find everything that you need at gretchenrubin.com.

Gretchen Rubin: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.

Hala Taha: Well, yeah, fam, that was Gretchen Rubin, and this conversation is a reminder that your life only works when it actually fits you. We love to chase better habits, better routines, better systems, but none of that works if it's not built on what's actually true for you.

Hala Taha: One of the biggest takeaways for me is how often we get in our own way without realizing it. Gretchen calls these loopholes, those little justifications that sound harmless but quietly keep you stuck. I'm too busy. I did it yesterday. I deserve a break. Start paying attention to those moments, those loopholes, because once you catch the pattern, you can break it.

Hala Taha: And then there's drift. This one's real. You don't wake up one day completely off track. It happens slowly, decision by decision, or not by deciding at all. And by the way, your drift might be somebody else's dream. But by the time you start questioning things, that's your [01:12:00] signal. Don't ignore it. That's your moment to course-correct.

Hala Taha: And remember, when something can be done any time, it often gets done at no time, so stop waiting for the perfect moment. At the end of the day, there's no universal blueprint for success or happiness. No tool fits every hand. Your job is to figure out what actually works for you, what energizes you, what you naturally follow through on, and build your life around that.

Hala Taha: Because when your life is aligned with who you really are, everything else gets easier. Now it's on you to take what Gretchen shared and actually put it into action. And if you listened, learned, and profited from this conversation, share it with a fellow entrepreneur who needs to hear it. You can also watch this episode on YouTube, just search Young and Profiting, and don't forget to subscribe and drop a comment on what resonated with you most.

Hala Taha: And if you prefer audio, we're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, everywhere you can listen to podcasts. You can also connect with me on Instagram at YapWithHala or LinkedIn. Just search for my name, it's Hala Taha. A special shout-out to our producer, [01:13:00] Nina, who works tirelessly behind the scenes to make every episode shine.

Hala Taha: Nina, we see you working so hard. We appreciate you so much, and the whole team adores you. Thank you so much for all that you do. This is your host, Hala Taha, AKA The Podcast Princess, signing off