Hala: Yeah. Haley, welcome to Young and Profiting podcast.

Haley: I'm so excited to be here.

Hala: I'm so happy that you're here and that we get to hang out in person. And before we get into finance, budgeting, investing, you say that a lot of people are getting financial advice for an America that, like, doesn't really exist anymore.

You say that the American dream is dead, and you also say that long live the new American dream. So let's start there. What is the new American dream to you? Paint that picture for us.

Haley: The new American dream is owning your time and having freedom.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: For our parents' generation, it was so much about being locked into these corporate jobs for, you know, 30 to 40 years.

Mm-hmm. You get your pension, and then there's sort of this- Yeah ... light at the end of the tunnel where you're gonna have that retirement and your life's really gonna start when you're, like, [00:01:00] 65 or whatever. But what I think is that with Gen Z and millennials, we want to enjoy our time now.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: We don't wanna be beholden to a corporation because we know that they're not loyal to us.

Mm-hmm. Um, and we want freedom.

Hala: Yes. Yeah, you talk about something called a freedom fund- Yes ... which I think is, like, a really cool. It's the ability to have money so that you can say no to things.

Haley: Yeah.

Hala: Talk to us about the freedom fund. Why is it so important to you as, like, a principle?

Haley: Well, I actually call it an, a freedom fund, but also F-you money.

Hala: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Haley: Yeah. Which is, and I'm sure you feel like that too- Mm-hmm ... 'cause it's, you know, like, you're rich, where, you know, the more money that you have, the more power you have, which is why I'm also so passionate about financial literacy- Mm-hmm ... and, uh, you know, empowerment for women- Yeah

because for our, for women, like, for, we couldn't have our own credit cards till 1974.

Hala: I know. I- that's crazy. [00:02:00] Like, it really wasn't that long ago.

Haley: It really wasn't. When the Knicks... I'm a New Yorker, so- Mm-hmm ... when the Knicks won the championship, uh, this past year, the last time that they had won an NBA championship, women couldn't have credit cards- Wow

which is so crazy. I was like, that was, like, a weird marker for me.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, but yeah, the, I think it's so important to have money because it allows you to walk away from things that aren't serving you, whether that is a job that you absolutely hate, or a partner that you, you know, can't stand- Mm ... but you feel trapped by.

Yeah. I have a story in my book, Future Rich Person. I asked her if I could include this. Yeah. One of my best friends, Elizabeth, was in a relationship with this guy, Charlie, who's horrible. Mm. And he, but they lived together and- He's, like,

Hala: a horrible boyf- like-

Haley: Horrible boyfriend. Okay. Like, actually physically pushed her around a bit.

Like- Oh my

Hala: God ...

Haley: just, like, bad news. Kept her really down. Like, she just, she lost her sparkle 100%, but- Mm ... [00:03:00] they lived together, and they had a dog, and he was tall, which I feel for women- Yeah ... can really get you where you're like- Yeah ... "Okay, on paper, though, he's got a lot of these things that I want- Mm-hmm ... and also, like, what do I do if I leave?"

Like, I can't afford a new mattress. Yeah. I can't afford a down payment. But she realized, like, the urgency of the situation, and then started to put money away in that freedom fund, and got what she calls her freedom apartment- Mm ... which she is still in to this day. And it- Good

Hala: for her.

Haley: Yeah. It's above a gas station.

It's so small, but it's the best because it's hers, and she left and, you know, that was, like, a huge moment in her life where she was able to choose herself- Yeah ... and to me, a moment of such financial empowerment that shows you that, like, when you have money, it really does give you the ability to choose.

Hala: Yeah, and I feel like it's important to say, it's important to have that even if you're in a healthy relationship. Even if things are going amazing, you should also have your own money. How do you think about, like, finances within relationships?

Haley: Well, I mean, it's [00:04:00] interesting 'cause I'm in a relationship, and we live together.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, and but, you know, what's interesting about our situation is that we actually make similar amounts- Mm-hmm ... which I feel is very uncommon.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: You never really make the same amount as your spouse, so because we make the same amount of money, we split rent 50/50.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, and I always say you should always split rent based on income versus just a s- you know, percentage- Yeah

50/50 because one person might be crying into their ramen on the first of the month, and the other- Mm-hmm ... feels rich just because money is so relative to how much you have coming in.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: So for us, it works well, but I think the biggest thing is, A, to make money non-emotional in the relationship. Mm-hmm. So it's something that you can bring up in the same way where it's like, "Did you take out the trash?"

Yeah. "What, what are you doing tomorrow?" Mm-hmm. "Should we go to that wedding we just got an invite to? Did you pay your half of the rent?" Like, it shouldn't be this thing that we're so scared of and emotional to talk [00:05:00] about.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: That, I think, gives it this weird power to control us, and that's a bad thing.

Hala: Is he your boyfriend?

Haley: Yeah.

Hala: So do you guys already have, like, a shared bank account or anything like that? Bless you. Bless you.

Haley: So sorry. Um, no, we don't have a shared bank account. Um, but I think when we... You know, the moment that we are legally tied-

Hala: Yeah ...

Haley: where it is marriage-

Hala: Mm-hmm ...

Haley: then we'll get one, and that's what I believe in, is having a shared account for shared expenses and then having separate accounts for your expenses because I will never, you'll never catch me dead- Yeah

sharing money 100% with someone. I always have to have money that allows me to leave-

Hala: Yep ...

Haley: that allows me to do whatever I want. I don't wanna ask for permission. I love my financial freedom- Mm-hmm ... and that's something that I guard with my life, and I think he does too.

Hala: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So my boyfriend's [00:06:00] actually six years younger than me, so I make more money than him right now, but I, he's gonna be really rich.

Yeah. So he's an entrepreneur as well. And so, um- Uh, it's funny to me because when I think about, uh, finances, it's like I also want to have, like, financial freedom. But I have friends where, for me, like, we're about to move in and we're gonna split rent 50/50, and like, that's okay for me. I have a lot of girlfriends that, like, they'll be like, "That is crazy.

I would never split the rent. Like, the man has to pay rent." I know. But they're not making, those women are not making as much money as me. Yeah. So I just feel like they don't understand that it's like, well, like, when, when you're a woman who's, like, m- the breadwinner making a lot of money, I'm okay to split the rent 50/50.

Haley: It's interesting 'cause there's all of these articles coming out and data coming out about Gen Z women who are making so much more money than their partners and pulling them along.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And [00:07:00] I actually have an adverse reaction to when women take care of men versus when a man takes care- I know ... of a woman.

Hala: It was hard for me, like, to, like, be like, well, like, a part of me was like, "Well, I worked so hard. I wanna, like, stock up my money. I don't want to pay rent." But at the same time, it's like that's not really fair.

Haley: Well, I always... The way that I look at it is people get into relationships for a lot of different reasons.

Like, I have friends who really are solving for a rich guy, and I don't shame them for it because that's what they need to feel safe. You know? A lot of them have come from a lot of financial instability. They're not in careers where they are going to make a lot of money, and in order for them to actually be in a healthy relationship, for them, healthy looks like the g- guy really taking care of them.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: And even though that maybe is uncouth and, you know, every... I believe, you know, every woman should have their own money, all these things, I also know that there are exceptions to that rule.

Hala: [00:08:00] Yeah.

Haley: Be- when you have financial freedom in the way that I have or you have, we're not solving for anyone to take care of us.

We're solving for one thing, and that's love. Yeah. And that is a privilege.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And it's something that I take really seriously and I talk about a lot with my partner, and it's really cool that it's like- Mm-hmm ... we're not looking for anything from the other person except for just to be that emotionally supportive- Mm-hmm

partner, my best friend, person I wanna build a life with, but I'm not looking for them to take care of me.

Hala: Totally.

Haley: And that... But that's something that is unique to our situation.

Hala: Yeah. And it's an advantage 'cause we can kind of pick somebody who really matches our personality- Mm-hmm ... who we really enjoy their time.

Yeah. And not really have to worry about their bank accounts too much.

Haley: Yeah, which I'm telling you, like, not... That's not what everyone... But I also like, that's not what everyone looks for.

Hala: Yeah. It's not what everybody wants.

Haley: Yeah. And that's okay to, if you're looking for something else. Yeah. But in, you know, when you really prioritize your financial freedom, I think that that is an advantage.

Hala: Mm-hmm. Speaking of that, like, this tradwife trend-

Haley: Mm-hmm ...

Hala: [00:09:00] is so popular, and this, this trend of, like, being dependent on your husband and kind of glamorizing it. How do you feel about that?

Haley: I talk a lot about stay-at-home spouses.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: I think it's really interesting because- Being a mother obviously is such a big job.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And I, you know, it, y- a lot of women, I think they have so much on their plates when they're taking care of kids, that if they have a partner who then says, "I'll take care of the money," it feels like, "Great. One less thing off my plate." Yeah. I'm taking care of the groceries. I've gotta figure out the soccer practice.

Like, you know, little Sam is sick. Mm-hmm. You know, all these things that I have on my plate. He's gonna do the finances. What a gift. But that's the one thing that you should never give up control of. Um, and I think that with tradwives, it's really interesting because they make so much money. [00:10:00] Mm. So it's this glamorization of a lifestyle that actually is a business.

Hala: You're saying like the tradwife

Haley: influencers. The tradwife influencers.

Hala: Yeah. Yeah. It's like they're actually making money by- Mm-hmm ... being a housewife, but a normal person not filming their life-

Haley: Is

Hala: it- ... is not making money like that.

Haley: And I don't think that it's wrong to stay home with your kids, but I think that you need to have a spousal IRA, which allows you to put money away for your retirement even if you don't have taxable income, which is so- Mm

important. You need to make sure that your name is on all of the assets. Um, and you need to make sure that you're a part of the money situation and that you also have your own money even if you are, like, not the, the earner.

Hala: Yep.

Haley: That you still have money on the side that allows you to leave and to do what you want with no questions.

Hala: Totally.

Haley: Um, yeah.

Hala: I love that. Uh, another trend that I see online a lot, and it's been around for a long time, is girl math, right?

Haley: Like- Oh, I hate girl... I'm like the number-one hater.

Hala: Oh, you hate girl math?

Haley: Actually, like I've never bullied anyone online.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: But I did [00:11:00] come after girl math and then I felt bad 'cause the girl who started it was like, "I didn't mean to."

Like, in my DMs. And I was like, "Girl, like, love you to death, but also, like, this was bad. Like, we do have to talk about it."

Hala: Yeah, because it kind of makes, like, financial irresponsibility, like- Mm-hmm ... um, cute. Exactly. You know? And like, like, it's not a big deal to be dumb with your money, and also makes women look dumb.

Haley: Makes them look dumb, but it also is this feminization of being stupid.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Where it's, like, considered this feminine attribute- Mm-hmm ... to be stupid with your finances that really just keeps us so stuck.

Hala: Yep.

Haley: Um, and you, I see it a lot on Instagram- In reels, and I often will post them and be like, "What is this content?"

Yeah. Where it's like, you know, a woman pranking her husband by telling him that she's gonna pay the mortgage. Mm. Or, you know, going to Target and spending [00:12:00] $200 but meaning to have just bought toothpaste, and like making a reel about that 'cause it's, she thinks it's so funny and so relatable. Just like these moments where it's clear that the per- the woman is not in financial power-

Hala: Yeah

Haley: and that she doesn't want to be.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And that it's like cute to not be. Yeah. And I just really don't think that we should glamorize it.

Hala: Yeah. And also, it's like boys also make financial mistakes. There's boy math, too.

Haley: Yeah. I mean, even, and if you look at sports betting and prediction markets, people are getting into so much debt, specifically men from that, and it's never looked at the same way as when women spend.

You know, women, they, we tell, they tell us that we're so frivolous with money. Mm-hmm. That, you know, we can't hold onto a dollar, we're buying lattes, we're online shopping, and you know, we're so shamed. Yeah. But then men will go and, you know, spend $30,000 betting on a parlay.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And it's [00:13:00] just totally normalized.

Hala: It's so true. It's, it's like really unfair to think about it that like women can spend money and then for us it's like a waste. For men who spend money on their cars and whatever it is, it's like seen as like normal.

Haley: Well, it's just crazy how much we're socialized to stand in our own way with our finances.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: I think that definitely happened to me. Um, and it wasn't until what I call like my aha money moment- Mm ... that I really was like, "Oh, this isn't that hard. I can do it." Tell

Hala: us about that.

Haley: Well, I think that we all ha- you either have it or you can really manufacture it, and that's why I love money books and why I wrote Future Rich Person because I really believe in the power of re- I really believe in the power of reading.

Wow. Brilliant, Haley. But it's like I read so much and it's changed my whole life.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Um, and you know, it's like a way to really shift your mindset. So if you're someone who feels stuck in your finances and you can't really find that oomph and that motivation- Yeah ... read a money book. Try Future Rich Person.

If it doesn't work for you, there's so many other great ones out [00:14:00] there. Um, but mine's like really personable and funny. I'm a comedian. Yeah. And so I, you know, it's definitely a page-turner. Like, people always message me like they read it in one day. So it's... I don't think there is like another money book like that where you would- Mm-hmm

binge read it. Um, but I really think that it's important... So what it leads to is having that money a- that aha money moment.

Hala: Okay.

Haley: And for me, that happened when I had my first full-time job and I was working for Lorne Michaels, who started SNL. Mm. And the first day, they asked me about 401s and health insurance, and up until that point, I had been sort of like Girl Mathy, not taking my finances so seriously, assuming that, you know, my dad or- Mm-hmm

a boyfriend was gonna take care of it and it wasn't for me. And then, but I took my career seriously. Mm. And so when I realized that there was a tie between how I would be perceived at work and my lack of financial literacy, it gave me the motivation to then actually [00:15:00] understand these topics-

Hala: Yeah ...

Haley: which then led to me realizing that I could totally understand them, they weren't hard at all- Mm-hmm

that I had been 100% catfished by the whole thing, and that, you know, financial literacy really just requires like sixth or seventh grade math and some automation, you could be a millionaire.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And I became Mrs. Dow Jones, which I- Yeah ... obviously took it really far. But you know, it can come from- You know, when you lose your job and you have to, and you run through your savings and you realize that you have to figure things out.

Or a lot of people have their money, their aha money moment when they're at a big life s- moment. Mm-hmm. So like maybe you're having a baby. Yeah. I see that a lot, where it's like it suddenly snaps you into gear and you're like, "I'm an adult. There's gonna be another kid, another person relying on me. I need to get it together."

Yeah. Just that moment where you sort of face yourself in the mirror and you realize you can't run from it anymore.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Um, and even if, like I said, even if you don't have that mo- motivation, you can manufacture it just by taking in good financial content.

Hala: Mm. I wanna double tap on something that you just mentioned.

Mm-hmm. You felt like you were being [00:16:00] catfished. Yeah. Like what are the ways that you feel like the financial system doesn't set us up for success?

Haley: Oh my gosh. I mean, well, first of all- The financial system is profits off of your ignorance. Mm. So they're not motivated for you to understand things.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: There's no incentive for a bank- Mm-hmm ... or for a credit card company to teach you. Because the less that you know, the more that you're gonna pay in fees, and fees are what keep the whole financial system going.

Hala: Yep.

Haley: Be- and fees really come from a lack of understanding. Mm-hmm. So it's like you're paying, uh, you know, financial manager fees to manage your finances.

Yeah. 'Cause you- Late

Hala: fees for credit card

Haley: debt. Late fees for credit card debt, fees for banks, fees for this, fees for that, and they really add up.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, and that all just comes from, you know, a lack of understanding that, of [00:17:00] course, the financial services industry could work on. Yeah. But instead, they mask everything in so much jargon and, you know, vests and, you know, this allure of Wall Street, and it just feels, you feel so othered from the system-

Hala: Yeah

Haley: that you assume you couldn't possibly be trusted to take control, and so then you hand over the reins to someone else, or you ignore it.

Hala: Mm. You've got this structural barrier quiz- Mm-hmm ... in your book. What are some of the questions that you ask people to kind of unpack whether there's, like, a real barrier?

Haley: Um, well, you know, I start the book going through your money mindset. Mm-hmm. Because I've worked with tens of thousands of people on their finances, and what I've realized is, you know, I can tell you anything about emergency funds- Mm-hmm ... and how to invest in the stock market, and it all sounds great, but you're never actually going to make a change unless you unpack your why.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And what's holding you back, and what are the stories that you're [00:18:00] telling yourself about money that are keeping you stuck.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And it's funny, because I really look at financial wellness, emotional wellness, and physical wellness sort of in the same way.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: Where I think that you need all three to really live a balanced, good life.

But when it comes to emotional wellness, it's so normalized to have a therapist, right? Yeah. You go to lunch. Your girlfriend's like, "Oh, my therapist said this." Mm-hmm. I know all my friends' therapist names. It's like Barbara, Hillary, this, that. I'm like, okay, that was a good take that she had this week. Then when it comes to physical wellness, you know, we have trainers.

Yeah. You go on YouTube, you watch videos, you hire someone, you go to a class, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. You have people who are, you know, teaching you.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: But when it comes to money, we don't have any of that. Yeah,

Hala: nobody wants to talk about it.

Haley: No one wants to talk about it, and we are all so stuck with our own shame from not knowing.

But what I like to remind people is every person that you admire financially- Oprah, Warren Buffett, Rihanna, any of these people. Mm-hmm. First of all, they've definitely made money [00:19:00] mistakes.

Hala: Yep.

Haley: And I could name so many from celebrities. You know I'm like an encyclopedia of that. So we can get into that. But they also started the same place that you did, which was at zero.

Mm. And the only difference between you and them is that they took the time and they believed in themselves enough to learn.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And isn't that sort of cool?

Hala: It is cool. It's cool that, like, you can actually make a change- Mm-hmm ... and, like, make a difference. Um, so one of the things that I'm noticing online is that a lot of people are, like, showing off, of course, right?

Yeah, of course. Peacocking. Like, social media's a place where people are showing their new bag, their new watch, their new car. Everybody looks a lot richer than they really are. Mm-hmm. And you've got this really great story in your book. I think the girl's name is, like, Vera?

Haley: Vera, yeah.

Hala: Vera. Uh, tell us the story of Vera and how, you know, she looked really rich but, you know, her bank account said another story.

Haley: Yeah, so I was speaking [00:20:00] at Harvard, and after I did a meetup with some followers, and this girl showed up and I remember noticing her because she just... Well, I totally fell for it, by the way, all of her peacocking. Really? I was like, I loved her outfit. She had, like, a Row bag. She had a stack of Cartier bracelets.

Mm. You know, she had a fabulous, like, matching set on. She had designer sneakers. I was like, damn, who is this baddie? Yeah. Like, this is crazy. And then after the, you know, meetup ended, she was like, "Can I steal you for a second? Can we just get a drink? I, like, really need to talk to you." So I was like, "Okay." So then we sat down and she proceeded to tell me all about her debt and how she had just been laid off- Mm

and her student loans, and how she was just basically staring down the bottom of the barrel. And it was, like, this really dark moment in her life financially. And I looked at her, and I was, like, so confused because on, you know, if you'd seen her on the street, you would have thought, [00:21:00] "That's someone who has so much money."

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: But it was all a disguise to distract you from what was actually going on with her finances, which I think is sort of the whole theme on social media, is this needing of more to look like you have m- like, to basically compete with others instead of focusing on actually winning your own game.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: And the only way that you grow wealth is to spend less than you make, and to invest that difference.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And I call that in the book action money. Mm-hmm. And so if you d- take action with your money and put it in the stock market, you're gonna grow a lot of money. Yeah. But if you take action with that money and go on Revolve or, you know go- That's

Hala: my guilty pleasure.

Haley: go on Mytheresa or whatever it is, and just buy stuff that makes it look like you have money, you're never gonna actually grow wealth.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: Um, uh, but it's really hard because- When you are online, you see 5,000 ads a day. 20% of what you see on Instagram is an ad. Our parents saw 500 ads a day, which is also [00:22:00] why I talk about the American dream being dead.

Yeah. Because we're also in this hyper-competitive- Yeah ... capitalist environment where we're constantly being fought over for our dollars. Mm-hmm. And then you add in this, like, Apple Pay, like Apple Be Paying, and it's never been easier to buy something. And I fall victim to it too. I, um, bought a dress on Poshmark.

I... Like, a Roberta Cavalli dress- Mm-hmm ... for $200 last night at, like, 11:30 PM. And Poshmark is so... You can't return, so I'm screwed. Yeah. And it's like, I hope it's cute, but it's like, did I need the dress? No.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: Why did I buy it? But it was within two... I- I usually can stop myself, but it was late at night.

Hala: I'm the

Haley: worst late at night.

I was just... Yeah, it's so... And then I- I'm really good at printing the label, sending it back, and I always say to people, like, it's not, you're not gonna ever be perfect with the purchasing. Yeah. But it really, you just have to be on top of, you know, getting the money back. And don't be girl math about it, though.

Mm. When you got the money back, then you're like, "Oh, that's free money." Yeah. [00:23:00] Like, just take the money. Um, but yeah, it's so difficult to hold onto your dollars.

Hala: It is. There's so much to unpack there. Why don't we-

Haley: And by the way, as women too, when you look better, you make more money. Yeah. So there's also this incentive as...

Like, both of us are on camera all the time. We're in media. Exactly. You need to have nice hair. You need to have nice nails. You need to have cute outfits. And like, it's part of the gig, but in the same way, it's so expensive- It is ... and time-consuming and addictive. I find it really addictive.

Hala: It's super addictive, especially for people like us that are, like, influencers- Mm

in this space that always have to be on camera. I don't wanna have... Like, I've so much clothes, and yet I feel like it always looks like I'm wearing the same thing- I know ... 'cause it's like something goes viral, and then you're in the same outfit. Yeah. So it's, it is really hard, but pretty privilege is a thing.

So do we have to spend a lot of money to take advantage of pretty privilege?

Haley: I think there's obviously ways around it. Like, I have a friend, Anna Laura, who's so good at doing her own nails. She has the gel kit at home. She does her own microneedling. She's, like, [00:24:00] just so on top of her at-home beauty. But I think that you don't have to spend on it necessarily.

Hala: It doesn't have to be designer. It

Haley: doesn't have to be designer. I think it... But I think it is important to look put together.

Hala: Yes.

Haley: Uh, you know, my publicist, Katie, is here, and I always use her as an example. She's definitely listening and rolling her eyes. But she always looks really put together, but she does it in a way where it is very discreet.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: So you would never be able to say, "Oh, Katie was wearing this thing." You're just with Katie, and, like, she looks like she's polished.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: So I think that's really, if you have a lower budget, the way to do it, is to go to the stores like Zara or Mingo or these, like, Marshalls has great stuff- Mm-hmm ... like lower priced stores, and find things that aren't trendy, and then build a wardrobe around that-

Hala: Mm-hmm

Haley: is really the key.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: But you can't really get around the power of being well-groomed.

Hala: It's true. [00:25:00] But s- people like us, I think it's more of a problem of, like, this, like, for me, and this is, like, horrible, but, like, sometimes, like, I'd rather go on Revolve and buy stuff instead of looking in my closet and seeing like, "What do I have?"

No, I agree. But like

Haley: Well, the new tab

Hala: feeling ... it's like I'd rather just look on my computer and be like, "I want this new thing," instead of realizing that, like, I've got a big closet of all this stuff that I could just, like, be creative and put together an outfit.

Haley: Oh, I would like to wear something new every day.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: That would be the dream. I think about that, like, I have all these fantasies about if I was uber, uber wealthy, like if I was Lauren Sanchez rich- Mm-hmm ... like, who would my stylist be? Yeah. What would I be wearing? What beauty treatments would I get if there was no- Mm-hmm ... ceiling, you know? And it's, like, sorta blows your mind when you let your mind go there.

Yeah.

Hala: Well, the good news is that you could buy what you want when you work hard, and- Yeah ... you're an entrepreneur, to be honest. Like, I just feel like for me it's not about saving or not spending on what I love. I just think about, like, how do I [00:26:00] make more sales, how do I get more clients, how to grow my network bigger.

Haley: Well, that's really the key. I love that you bring that up, because I talk- I have a whole chapter dedicated to that in the book called Secure the Damn Bag.

Hala: Mm-hmm. '

Haley: Cause I'm so sick of the advice, especially for women, being how to save more.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: I hate saving. Like, I love sa- I ha- I love having savings- Yeah

but I feel really oppressed by the couponing culture. Mm-hmm. I remember when I first started my financial journey, when I had that aha money moment, and I didn't really know where to look, finding myself on a blog that was talking about rewashing paper towels. And there's- Oh my

Hala: God.

Haley: Yeah. There's, like, this intense- form of deprivation that was so not glamorous.

And that's sort of why I started Mrs. Dow Jones, because I wanted it to feel aspirational- Mm-hmm ... to grow wealth. Mm-hmm. But I really think that for women especially, we need to focus on making more versus cutting down less. Of course, you can't outwork a bad diet, you can't- Yeah ... [00:27:00] outwork a bad budget. Like, there's limits to it.

But overall, I think women are severely underpaid. We don't ask for enough, and that focusing on having more money is so much better than putting all your energy into scrimping.

Hala: I totally agree, and I think it's for men, too. I think the key is, like, how do you actually release the ceiling that you have? In my opinion, I feel like if you have the personality for it, everyone should be an entrepreneur- Mm-hmm

and start their own business, and figure out how to make more money, and not just figure out how to, you know, penny pinch. Because I don't think it's gonna be $5 coffees or, like you said in your book, skipping the avocado toast that's gonna get us

Haley: rich. No. No, not at all. It really isn't. And even you know with your journey in media where it really came down to you owning, ownership.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Where it was owning your show, owning other people's shows. Like, that's really what put you in a position of financial [00:28:00] power.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And I think, Jen, that is part of the new American dream.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Is that it's not that people wanna not work. Of course there are people like that of cor- but it's really about being able to work from anywhere, having the flexibility- Yep

having your time back, and then also being in control.

Hala: Mm-hmm. And with AI, to be honest, the traditional job is gonna go away anyway. Yeah. So you better start getting used to selling your skills and figuring it out on your own.

Haley: Yeah. I agree with that. And I do think that there is this- intense moment that we're going through right now of self-reliance, where it used to be that you could sort of hide under the cloak of a company for all those years- Mm-hmm

and they would protect you. And I remember this from my own life. Yeah. That, so I was working for Lorne Michaels- Mm-hmm ... and I thought, sort of in that old American dream way, that, like, I was gonna be in this system, in this company forever.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: Um, and that I was safe. It was this huge sense of relief, because up until that point I had been grinding- Yeah

had been working for myself, and it felt like this, you know, quantum leap to have gotten this opportunity. [00:29:00] And I, you know, then six months in I got laid off.

Hala: Oh, wow. Um- I

Haley: didn't

Hala: know that.

Haley: Yeah. And before that I had been making a lot of content, but I'd been working at a Pilates studio. Mm-hmm. I was a babysitter for a kid named Winthrop.

Yeah. I was, you know, making videos for brands. Like, I was really doing anything that I could to just, like, put the dollars together. Yeah. But, like, nothing had really hit yet, but I was just, I was in my early 20s, I was grinding. And I remember after that moment thinking, "Okay, I can either..." I was working for, you know, in comedy, so I thought, I can, I can go and, you know, the, get on my knees and beg for a job at, like, a Comedy Central or something- Yeah

that's similar. And at that point I think I was making $40,000 a year. It would've been the same amount there. They would've owned all my IP.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: Um, and I would've had to work really hard for no guarantees so that someone else could give me permission to do what I wanted to do. Or I, let me take a [00:30:00] year and see what I can do on my own.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: And so I got a job- Where I was writing videos for the music, uh, company Fuse.

Hala: Okay.

Haley: Yeah. Like, and I-

Hala: I once got a job at Fuse too when

Haley: I was- They were giving them out, girl ... yeah, yeah. Like, they were the best. They were really... I'm like, God, like, thank gosh. Yeah, where'd they

Hala: go?

Haley: I know. Like, but they really had my back.

Like, it was the best. Yeah. And it was only like three days a week, and I'd go... And I didn't really know that much about music, but I'd be, like, writing for all these, like, rappers and, you know- Mm-hmm ... punk artists and whatever, and just, like, making viral videos for them, which, you know, was my bread and butter.

And then working religiously on Mrs. Dow Jones as well, every day posting, waking up. Like, I couldn't go to sleep every day, I remember, until, like, I had done my work for it. Like, I was so focused on the grind. And then by the end of that year, I was in The New York Times- Wow ... which then shifted everything.

Yeah. And then a few months after that, the pandemic started, which was this other boom time for digital media, and so then the career, you know, really started to take off. But [00:31:00] it was because I bet on myself- Yes ... instead of going back into that corporate structure. Mm. And it's not to say that everyone can be an entrepreneur, but I do think that part of the new American dream really is-

Hala: Yeah

Haley: working for yourself- And I feel like- ... 'cause there's no ceiling to how much you can make.

Hala: I was just interviewing... I have another series called How We Profit, where basically I, I interview, like, people who aren't famous but have big businesses- Mm ... and kind of unpack their business models. Cool. And I was interviewing this guy, Ramy, and he said something that was really interesting.

When he decided to be an entrepreneur, he was actually in med school, and he drops out of med school, and he was like, "All of my doctor friends are taking, like, low-paying, free fello- or like, I guess it's low-paying, but, like, fellowships."

Haley: Ooh, my sister's a surgeon, and everyone that... They're so broke.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: It's so crazy.

Hala: And so he's just like, "People are okay when they're, they're gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or, like, whatever to take, like, a free internship, uh, a low-paying fellowship. But nobody's okay with, like- Working for free for a year for yourself

Haley: Yeah, so true. So he- That's such a good point ...

Hala: yeah, so he made- I [00:32:00] love that

this reframe, "I'm gonna do a fellowship of entrepreneurship."

Haley: I love

Hala: that. And that I'm just gonna see what happens and give myself three years, 'cause fellowships in med school are three years. Yeah. I'm gonna give myself three years to figure it out, and if I don't figure out in three years- I'll

Haley: go back

I'll go back. That's so genius.

Hala: Right?

Haley: I love

Hala: that. Yeah, and so, like, having this reframe, especially if you're young, you know, 20s, even 30s, 35, like, you've got some time. Go-

Haley: Yeah ...

Hala: try to figure it out and see what you can sell- Girl, it's like it's not age-dependent ...

Haley: see

Hala: what you're good at. Yeah. Like it- It's not age-dependent

Haley: yeah, 'cause it's, you have one life.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: So if you're miserable, like, and you have that dog in you, go get it.

Hala: Yeah. So, um, I wanna s- go back to your story. I'm, I'm writing my first book.

Haley: Oh,

Hala: congratulations. And thank you.

Haley: It's hard, right?

Hala: It is so hard. It's hard to find the time. Oh my God, it's so hard to find ti- I'm actually hiring a lot so that I actually have time to just work on content.

I'm building offices and studios, writing this book. That's so exciting. It's so much. It's, it's exciting.

Haley: I was so bad with my time during it. Like, I had to do it all on the weekends.

Hala: I'm [00:33:00] already delay- like, I was supposed to have my proposal done this month. It's not gonna be till the end of the year. Like, I'm- It's

Haley: okay

Hala: I'm t- ta- I don't know, whatever. But hopefully it comes together, 'cause it's a long process.

Haley: It'll come together. You just, it's like a compounding thing where you have to do some every day- Yeah ... and it's like running a marathon or something like that- Mm-hmm ... where it's like, feels so great at the end- Yeah

but when you're in it, you're dying.

Hala: I'm excited, 'cause I feel like it'll be, like, so big for my brand. But one of the main things that I talk about and that I've talked about for years is this idea of skill stacking.

Haley: Oh, I love this.

Hala: So I, when I first started my career, I worked for, uh, I actually, I'm actually from this area too.

So I used to work at Hot 97.

Haley: Oh, I love that. And I- I love Hot 97. That's my freaking jam.

Hala: Really? Yeah. Yes, girl. So I was Angie Martinez's assistant- Oh, I love

Haley: Angie ... for three years.

Hala: Yeah. And so it's like I was her, like, right hand. I did all her research and, like, was, like, following her around for three years.

And then I went into marketing and corporate and I started my podcast eight years ago, like, as a side hustle. Oh, cool. And then, like, quit my job, started my business, all this stuff. And, um, I look back at, like, why am I top 100 podcaster? How am I [00:34:00] running a top network? And it's all the past experiences that, like, accumulated.

And I feel like y- when I was reading your story, I was like, "Oh my God, she's like the perfect s- another great skill-stacking example." 'Cause it's like you wanted to be in entertainment and comedy. Mm-hmm. And now, like, you're a social media personality, author, like, all these things, talking about finance. But still kind of doing what you always wanted to do, but just in a different way.

Haley: Well, I'm so glad you brought that up, Hal, because it, so many people, the first thing they ask me is, "Oh, did you work in finance?"

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And I would never have been able to build Mrs. Dow Jones had I left school and then gone into banking or something like that. I needed to have had, A, so much rejection, 'cause I was a comedian, and so you're doing stand-up, I'm doing improv.

You know, when you're an entrepreneur, when you're on social media, you get rejected every day. It's basically getting a report card-

Hala: Yeah ...

Haley: every time that you push out a video. Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And it's like, "Did I do well? Did I not do well?" And you have to be okay with it and be able to put out another one tomorrow.

Um, and then I also think it's like the money part of it was actually the easiest part to learn- Mm-hmm ... and to, you know, grasp. The rest of it was, was, were the skills that I really had to build- Hmm ... which was, you know, digital media, learning how to package content, learning how to be on camera, learning about hooks and, you know, uh, the pacing of things- Yeah

and subtitles and all these. When you just watch videos, you don't see everything behind the scenes, but it's very sophisticated to make videos at the level that I do.

Hala: Hmm.

Haley: Um, and so, you know, that all came with skill stacking 100%.

Hala: Yeah, and- and how do you feel comedy has helped you? Oh, man,

Haley: so much.

Hala: Talk to me about that.

Haley: Well, I think that, okay, I think that I was- I had a natural born really deep interest in pop culture and money. And so that's like my secret sauce because, and [00:36:00] that's also what my audience loves the most from me.

Hala: Yeah. 'Cause you, so much has gone viral of like you talking about the Kardashians.

Haley: Yeah.

Hala: And it's just, okay, I love that.

Haley: Which is sort of cool when what people like from you is what you like to do.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, and so I'm really passionate about that too, so I love that that pops off and I'm like leaning more into it. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I think for a while I was like, "Oh, to be like a serious financial expert, I shouldn't talk so much about celebrities," even though I love celebrities.

Yeah. But then I was like, "Who cares? This is spinach in a brownie." Like I, you know, as we... When is this going out?

Hala: Six weeks or something like that.

Haley: Oh. Well, I mean, as we talk there's like breaking news that Harry and Meghan are moving back to the UK. Yeah, I heard about that. Yeah. Yes. And so, which will be like old by the time people listen to this- Yeah

but you know, there's always a financial angle to any of these big stories that then I can use to teach people. Mm-hmm. So you know, for them, people are wondering, "Oh, are they gonna keep their house in Montecito?" And with a little bit of research, I learn that they have this mortgage that's under 3%. And so then I can use that story that already has legs- Mm

where people are [00:37:00] interested in why they're moving back, and talk about, "Are they gonna sell their house? Here's why they shouldn't." Yeah. Because when you can borrow money at a lower interest rate than you can make investing it, then that's called good debt. Yeah. And like some debt is good, a lot of it is bad.

You know, and explain it through that lens. And so I'm still teaching you a really smart thing- Yeah ... but it's just I'm doing it in a way that I'm interested and you're interested.

Hala: Passion is contagious. Yeah. Like that is a great rule for social media. Mm-hmm. Being knowledgeable is super important. And I think the future of everything is gonna be like what is the intersection of your passions, and how do you- I love that

create something, sell something that is the intersection of all your different passions. So you're also really funny in your videos. Thank you.

Haley: I feel like I'm not being funny at all today. But like you're like serious, so I'm like being vibes with you, you know what I

Hala: mean? You feel like, "I am a little serious."

Haley: You are. You're like- ... "Okay, we're like being like real." And so I'm like, okay, I'm being... Uh, but it's like funny when I'm not being funny, and then I'm like, "I'm a comedian." 'Cause like I feel like, prove it. But yeah. But I was always so jokes, like so ham, whatever. Yeah. And, [00:38:00] uh, and yeah, it was really f- it's, that's like, I feel like the secret sauce of it is- Yeah

just being funny. And also, I learned so much from my comedy training. 'Cause I did do training of, I was in UCB, like writing so much, all, like I did so many years of understanding joke structure and, uh, how to write sketches and all these things, which I bring back to the videos now. Mm-hmm. So it was all full circle, and it was all those skills that came together to make this unique thing.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, which I feel so lucky for because, uh- It's so much work, but it is so fulfilling, and it's something that springs me out of bed. And I know the goal for everyone is retirement- Yeah ... but I'm like, I'm down to be Mrs. Dow Jones forever.

Hala: Yeah, I heard that you wanna be Mrs. Dow Jones forever.

Haley: Yeah. I know.

I'm like, well, we'll s- like, I really do. Like, I love doing it. I love my audience. Mm-hmm. And I feel like so much of financial advice is focused around where you're at in life. And so, like, even, you know, I'm in this really serious relationship. When I think about we're [00:39:00] gonna, you know, we're a- we're buying a car, we're, we're, we'll get married, we're gonna have kids.

Like, all these things where then it's taking the audience arou- you know- Mm-hmm ... on that ride.

Hala: Evolving with you.

Haley: Yeah. Although, I will never put my man on social media.

Hala: Why? I

Haley: mean, I just, it's not... Like, maybe for, like, my wedding if we're in Vogue or something that chic. Like, I'm, like, worth it for Vogue, but- You don't

Hala: ever wanna do couples content or anything?

Haley: No. I understand that people really like it, but I also think, like, I have a very private partner, and so, uh, it's not part of our relationship.

Hala: Yeah. That's understandable.

Haley: Yeah. That's understandable. Until, but if it was, if I was dating an influencer, it would definitely be a different story. Mm-hmm. But, uh, I think it's complicated to date.

Uh, my partner's not on social media.

Hala: Oh, wow.

Haley: Which is sort of amazing, too, 'cause, like, there's no perception of me.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: You know? Like, which I sort of like, where I've dated

Hala: people- Yeah, you get to just be, like, your real self.

Haley: Yeah. And I've dated people in the past where, you know, you're always looking, did they look at my Instagram story?

Mm-hmm. How do I look in that video? Da, da, da. Yeah. But I sort of, I feel like I create really without the male gaze. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm always just being like, bloop, like, my hair's [00:40:00] messy. Like, who cares? Yeah. Like, I'm gonna just, like, I gotta get this thing out, and it's a relief.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: You know?

Hala: Yeah. That's so good.

Yeah. I

Haley: love

Hala: that for you. I

Haley: mean, it's hard, of course. Like, I s- I always have eyebrow gel, but, like- ... you gotta do

Hala: something. Yeah, let me ask you that. Now, this is, I wasn't planning on asking you this, but so, so you like to hop on camera and not... Like, how do you get out

Haley: of your- No, like, a lot of times I do, like, I'd say, like, two, two days, two or three days a week I put a lot of effort into looking good.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: But then it's like, two days a week maybe. But then it's like the other two days, I can't, girl. Like, I'm tired. I'm like- And- ... I'm working, I'm writing. I'm like, but then it's like, if you gotta do something, you gotta do it.

Hala: Yeah. And I mean, like, your followers are following you because they love your personality.

Yeah. They love your advice. Do you feel like you have mostly female followers?

Haley: I have a mix. So I actually started, because I think I started, I started talking about crypto and stocks, and then it became more, like, personal finance, holistic advice. Mm. Um, it started, uh, it started with a more male audience, but now it's definitely more female skewing.

Hala: Yeah. How long ago did you start everything? Like, y-

Haley: [00:41:00] 27, 2017, 2018. A-

Hala: and what platform did you start on?

Haley: Instagram So 2017,

Hala: 20... Okay, we started around the... I also started- Yeah ... everything 2018. So- And I'm

Haley: like, it was not an overnight success, girl.

Hala: No. Like, no. Yours was not? When do you, when did you start getting traction?

How many, how

Haley: long- Well, it was steady.

Hala: Yeah. It's like you got some q- wins along the way.

Haley: Yeah, like it was clear that I was on the right track, and I loved doing it, which I still do. Like, I have such a thirst for financial knowl- which is like the same thirst that I have for pop culture-

Hala: Yeah ...

Haley: I have for financial knowledge and advice and, like, news.

Mm-hmm. And so it keeps... That's what it's like, what you were saying about passion being contagious. Yeah. I really am addicted to all of that. Yeah. And I read so much. I read every personal finance book that comes out. Like, I just like... I'm obsessed with teaching people about money and how people teach people about money and then like- Yeah

breaking down the form and, like, trying to do it better.

Hala: Now I realize that, like, you were the first one out of- I was ... all these girls- Yeah ... that came up. No, I was. So it's like you were before Tori Dunlap. Yeah. You were before Vivian Tu. Yeah, yeah. That [00:42:00] Erica girl. How does it feel? Because before that, the, the financial influencers were Dave Ramsey and, and- Mm

Suze Orman. Yeah. Been on

Haley: my show. But I was, but I was more social media first.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: So, like, when I started, no one was making videos. There were no, there were no... Influencer wasn't a job.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Financial influencer certain was, it certainly wasn't a thing. Yeah. So I was just, like, doing it because I wanted to learn about money, and I was like, "I don't like this financial advice that I'm getting, but I love pop culture.

If you can explain 401s versus IRAs to me using Kardashians, I'll listen."

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: So then I made that content thinking, "Okay, there's gotta be someone out there who also feels like that." Mm-hmm. And there was. Yeah. But it wasn't like, "Oh, I'm making a brand. I'm gonna be a mogul." Like, d- like, no. Mm-hmm. None of that.

Hala: Do you ever get a feeling of like, not jealousy, but like somebody like Vivian Tu, who feels like she blew up-

Haley: Mm ...

Hala: three years, like, just so fast. She was so fast. It was so quick. I

Haley: know.

Hala: And now she's just [00:43:00] everywhere. Mm-hmm. And it's like, do you ever feel like, "Damn," like, "I've been working so hard?" Like, do you ever feel, like, any sort of like- I don't know.

Like, how do you deal with feelings like that, I guess is my question?

Haley: I think it's really normal to compare yourself to other people, but I also... My goal, and the goal of anyone in my space I think who's doing it right, is to help people with money.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And so I look at it like if you are working out, say you're on the Peloton app- Mm-hmm

and you're choosing an instructor, one instructor might work really well for you, one instructor might work really well for me-

Hala: Mm ...

Haley: but we're both working out. Yeah. And so I'm so just happy that there are other people out there who are helping people- Mm-hmm ... and that are connecting to people. I think that's amazing.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: And I also just love seeing female wealth being built. Like, you know, seeing these women make so much money off of these platforms is thrilling. Yeah. I'm like, "Go girl, get that [00:44:00] bag, make that money." Mm-hmm. Like, let's build that business. Yeah. And you know, there's room for everyone at the top. I don't think that one person's success- Yeah

takes away from anyone else's success. Um, and I don't believe in blaming others for why you're, things aren't working for you.

Hala: Exactly.

Haley: So like, even like if a video flops, you'll never catch me being like, "The algorithm. What's going on?" Mm-hmm. Like, "There's a change." Yeah. I'm like, "No, the content sucked."

Hala: Accountability.

Haley: Yeah. Yep. Like, it's like, oh, like I did a bad job. Like, I need to like work harder. I need to find a better topic. Yeah. I need to change my hook, whatever it is. Like, I just, uh, it's always, impetus is always on me.

Hala: Yeah. And every journey has a different timeline.

Haley: Totally. And um, yeah, every journey has a different timeline, and I think it's like when people are really good at what they do, like I think Vivian's amazing at what she does.

She's so good

Hala: at content.

Haley: She's incredible, so it's like inspiring to see. Mm-hmm. And you know, I think that it pushes me to, you know, work harder.

Hala: Yeah. Um, okay. So I want to play a [00:45:00] game with you. Let me just scroll to it. And basically, we're talking about new influencers, financial advice, the, the new gurus.

But there's also a lot of legacy money rules out there. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna say a legacy money rule, and you give me your take on it.

Haley: Okay.

Hala: Okay? All right. This one actually went viral. I asked it to Dave Ramsey, and it went viral so many times on my page, where he says, "No credit card debt ever."

Haley: Mm-hmm.

Hala: What are your thoughts?

Haley: I also agree, no credit card debt ever. I think that... But, I mean, that's sort of complicated because what if you have credit card debt? Like, it's like, you know. Yeah. Like, you shouldn't spend outside of your means if you can handle that.

Hala: What about no credit cards ever?

Haley: No, I love credit cards. You need to have credit cards because that builds your credit score, which is basically your financial GPA.

I also love using points to get [00:46:00] r- you know, free flights and things like that.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: But you should never spend money just to get points.

Hala: I'm gonna say that one again.

Haley: Okay.

Hala: And I'll do it, I'll just say no credits,

Haley: credit cards ever. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 'Cause no credit card, yeah, debt is like- It's more

Hala: confusing

obviously no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I'm gonna give you one, uh, from Dave Ramsey. Mm-hmm. It actually went super viral. He said, "No credit card ever."

Haley: I completely disagree, and I disagree with a lot of his advice. You absolutely should have credit cards. Having a credit card and paying it off on time is how you build your credit score.

Mm. And that allows you to lease cars and, you know, get a good interest rate and, you know, get mortgages and, you know, open new credit cards that will give you rewards, and then you can use those rewards to, you know, get perks like free flights. Mm. I think it's so important to have a credit card. That being said, if you're someone who struggles to stay within the bounds of your credit limit, there are ones with lower credit limits that you can get to just sort of build [00:47:00] that skill set so that you don't overspend and accrue credit card debt- Mm-hmm

which of course is not something that I ever stand by.

Hala: Yeah. I actually fell into the trap of no credit cards ever. Um, I had credit cards when I was younger, and then when I started my company, I didn't have any personal credit cards. All my credit cards were in my company's name. And I remember I was already making, this was like y- five years ago, I was already making like $400,000 a year, $500,000 a year, and I remember I went to go get like a nice apartment in Manhattan, and they wouldn't give me the apartment- Give it, yeah

because I had no credit. I know. I know. And then that's when I was like, oh my God, I, like I need to open up credit cards. I thought I was being financially savvy and smart, and it was not smart at all.

Haley: 100%. Yeah, you definitely should have credit cards.

Hala: Okay. Buying a home is always smarter than renting.

Haley: Disagree. I'm a millionaire. I rent. I think that it's very dependent on your financial [00:48:00] situation and also where you're going to buy. So like in a place like Manhattan, if I rent an apartment-

Hala: Yeah ...

Haley: and I invest that down payment money in the stock market, I'm gonna make much more than if I buy an apartment and then try and resell it for profit, which by the way, what profit?

By the time that you take out the dishwasher that you had to replace, and the HVAC, and all the maintenance, and the r- decorating, and the renovation- Yeah ... and the this and the that, when you actually sell the place It's not much money left over. Mm-hmm. So I really, really believe in renting. I think you get amazing flexibility.

I don't think that it sacrifices this idea of home. I think a lot of people think that in order to be an adult, you have to own your home. That's not true. You're... Yeah.

Hala: What about the psychological safety of owning a home? Like, especially, like for me, like I feel like when I'm 65 or 70 or, I really wanna make sure that like I have a home that's paid for, so like if anything happens, like at least I have shelter.[00:49:00]

Haley: I- Something that I think about a lot with money is, you know, that's when I talk, in the book, I talk about like your money relationship from when you're a child. Mm-hmm. Like, that's the first part of it, and yes, you can heal that, but we're also all carrying things that make us feel safe or not safe. And so if owning a home really makes you feel safe, even if it's maybe not the right financial situation, you should do it.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: You do have to make sure that you're also investing in the stock market, because you can't look at your domicile as your ticket to financial freedom and retirement.

Hala: Yes.

Haley: You can own a home, but then you also need to be investing because that is what is actually going to pay for your retirement.

Hala: Yeah. It's like be ready to put down a down payment while you still have money- Yeah ... available for investing and saving. It's like maybe j- you don't need to buy a home at 30 years old. Maybe you could buy a home at 40 years old.

Haley: Yeah. And like there's this book called The Psychology of Money that I feel like a lot of people talk about, and the whole book is financial advice, and then in the last [00:50:00] chapter, he explains how he doesn't take all the advice.

Mm. Because actually what makes him feel safe is having a bit more money in savings and, you know, keeping more in cash than you're supposed to, and like that's what helps him sleep at night. And I think that's really important is to sort of take your own financial litmus test- Yep ... and say, "Okay, this is right and that's wrong, but what about for me?"

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Mm-hmm.

Hala: For me, uh, something I have never boughten a home yet, but I'm actually gonna be buying commercial real estate-

Haley: Oh,

Hala: awesome ... in Austin. That's awesome. So I'm buying like a building that's gonna have- Oh, cool ... tenants- Cool ... where I like rent out like the office downstairs to somebody else, build out my studios and office upstairs.

And it's like I could easily just lease a place, but I'm like, you know what? I can have my company pay me rent instead of me paying another company rent- Yeah ... and like build my wealth through my organization. Totally.

Haley: And like- And own an asset.

Hala: Yeah. And it's like I'm not really excited about buying a home 'cause I can't do the same thing.

Yeah. But with a c- with, with my business, I feel like it's [00:51:00] really interesting to me to buy commercial real estate.

Haley: I lo- and especially in a place like Austin where- Yeah ... that's what I'm saying, where it's all about where you're

Hala: at. Up and coming and everything like

Haley: that. Yeah. Like I couldn't do that in Brooklyn.

Hala: No.

Haley: But- Yeah ... you know, Au-

Hala: It's one of the reasons why I moved, to be

Haley: honest. Yeah, tota- and better taxes.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Yeah. For me, like there's so much opportunity in New York, so I stay here. But like I get it, like it's, you know, awesome to move to a no tax state.

Hala: Yeah. Speaking of- I'm jealous ... taxes. Um, how do you feel about, um...

Well, actually, I'll wait until the game's over. I really wanna ask you about that, but I'll wait until the game's over. Okay. College is always a good investment

Haley: I don't think this is true at all.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, I think that trade school is a great investment where you're, you know, going to learn something specific that's going to pay you money.

But we see these private colleges charging over $100,000 a year for tuition, and I just can't in my right mind tell someone to take out $400,000 in student [00:52:00] loans for a degree that you don't even know how useful it's going to be.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: That being said, I think that when you're a young adult, it's so amazing to be around other young adults- Yes

who are figuring things out. There's such an opportunity there in terms of your growth. There's a small percentage of people who maybe reach 17 or 18 and they're ready to go out in the world. Yeah. And they should. But otherwise, I think that it's great to look at a college that is less expensive.

Hala: Yep.

Haley: Um, go in state, do that for a few years, and then if you wanna get that fancy degree, try and get good grades and transfer to the college where then you're gonna graduate with that degree, but you didn't have to pay for all four years.

Yep,

Hala: that's so smart.

Haley: Yeah. And see if you can get, you know, scholarships and things like this. But, uh, you shoot yourself so in the foot by just automatically thinking that you need to pay that much for college.

Hala: Yeah. I think it's more about thinking about colleges as, like, the experience- [00:53:00] Mm-hmm ... of college, not necessarily, like, the degree that comes out of college.

'Cause that degree, for the most part, unless you're like, you know, gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer, it's not gonna really do anything- Mm-hmm ... for you. Like, that's not really how the real world works anymore.

Haley: Yeah, 100%.

Hala: Okay, so let's talk about taxes.

Haley: Yeah, I'm really good at them.

Hala: Are you really?

Haley: Yeah.

Hala: I'm so bad at ta- I, like, I hate... I, honestly, my podcast is called Young and Profiting, and, and some people who don't follow my work, they don't understand that it's like, it's really an entrepreneurship podcast. Mm-hmm. And, like, I hate finances actually. Mm-hmm. Um, and finances and taxes, like, to me are like one bucket.

Haley: They are. Well, 'cause, you know, making money is one thing, but preserving your wealth- Yeah ... is a whole other thing, and it's so important to focus on both.

Hala: So let's, like, do a deep dive on, like, you're an entrepreneur. Mm-hmm. Taxes. What are some of the things that you feel like every entrepreneur needs to know about taxes?

Haley: Well, one thing I will say is that you shouldn't be writing off clothing. I think there's this idea that, oh my God, I'm an entrepreneur, I can just write off everything. This is a [00:54:00] write-off, that's a write-off. Yeah. And there's certain write-offs that make you more susceptible to be audited. Mm-hmm. And clothing is one of them.

Um, I think it's really important to get a great CPA and to understand how your business is set up, you know? Like, I recently switched to being an S corp-

Hala: Yep ...

Haley: which is, has, you know, saved me a lot of money. But also what's really important too with taxes as an entrepreneur is understanding the tax advantage retirement accounts that you have at your disposal.

Because it's very expensive to run a business in this country. Yes. They take a lot from us. So

Hala: much.

Haley: It's crazy. But one thing that they do give us, it's not much but are these tax advantage retirement accounts that you can actually put more into than if you had a 401. Mm-hmm. So like the SEP IRA-

Hala: Yep ...

Haley: can put over $70,000 into it.

Hala: Every year or-

Haley: Yeah ...

Hala: every year?

Haley: Yeah.

Hala: And what does that mean? That means that like you don't get taxed on 70K a year.

Haley: That means that you're putting money [00:55:00] away that then you are able to take out tax-free.

Hala: Okay, so you put that money away and you can take it out tax-free whenever you ... Like, I don't get it. Let me

Haley: make sure that I'm right.

Okay. 'Cause I forget

Hala: if it's something you

Haley: put it in tax-free or not. I would wanna get it sure. I'm

Hala: so dumb at taxes.

Haley: My God. Sorry, I opened my phone and I got a picture of my nephew.

Hala: That's cute.

Haley: Um, okay. SEP IRA, taxes

To go Yeah, they're 100% tax deductible. Yeah. Okay,

Hala: so- So, okay, so what does that mean exactly?

Haley: So what that means is say you make $500,000. If you put in $70,000 to your SEP IRA, you are only going to have $430,000 of taxable income.

Hala: Got it. So basically it, it removes that taxable income. Mm-hmm. And then you can pull that money out whenever you want.

Haley: [00:56:00] When you're in retirement.

Hala: But you'd get a tax when you pull it out.

Haley: It'll be taxed as ordinary income, yeah. Okay. So it will be taxed then, but it's growing that whole time. And if you're smart, when you pull it out, hopefully you have a good CPA, again, who will help you get into a lower tax bracket-

Hala: Mm ...

Haley: in retirement- Yeah

so that you're not paying so much on it.

Hala: Yeah. I feel like I have that, but I don't th- I don't think I... I feel like I would know, 'cause I would know if I'm putting in 70K.

Haley: There's all these... I mean, I was looking at a tax hack yesterday that lets me put 156K in through the s- through the SEPA, through the, um, the new structure of the S corp.

Hala: Oh.

Haley: So, so there's all these. You just need a good CPA, I would say is what it's saying. Yeah. I have a,

Hala: I have a good... I actually was just literally was Slacking my team today, like, 'cause I haven't been meeting with my CPA on my team. I said, I'm like, "I need to meet with the CPA and ask some questions." I

Haley: know.

You try and o- but that's the thing is, like, you try- You can't ... an offhand thing. You

Hala: can't.

Haley: But with your finances, you always have to. And even if it's annoying, you still have to do it.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: [00:57:00] And just do it for f- and also get a CPA that you don't hate. Like, the first CPA that I had, I hated. Like, she- So you didn't

Hala: wanna ever take calls?

Haley: She was the worst. Like, it was, freaking hated her. I can't even tell you how. And so I just woke up one day and I was like, "This is my choice. Why am I working with someone that I don't like? Like, this- Yeah ... is holding me back." So find a CPA that you can actually vibe with. I know it sounds crazy 'cause accountants are dry, but-

Hala: Yeah

Haley: you know, they exist.

Hala: Yeah. So let's go back to write-offs. So as an influencer- Yeah ... what do you feel comfortable writing off? Like, can you write off clothes for being an influencer, or you're saying no, never?

Haley: You can to a certain extent, but I just, I think there's other write-offs that are better to focus on, like, uh, subscriptions and electronics and your rent- Mm-hmm

and things like that. Mm-hmm. Versus clothing is a bit harder to prove. There's this famous, um, tax story about this woman called Chesty Love, and she was a exotic dancer.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: And she [00:58:00] got implants to become, I think, like a 34FFF. Like, her- Oh my God ... boobs were huge. And when tax season came around, she was like, "Okay, yeah, I'm, wanna write these off."

And, you know, they r- I think accountants and everyone were like, "What? No, that's not a write-off." And it went all the way up in the courts, and they decided that it actually was a write-off because- Wow ... her implants were not usable in everyday li- life, right? Like they were a costume for her job. And so the same thing would be s- true if I was a pilot and I bought a pilot outfit.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: You know? 'Cause I'm not wearing that every day. That's- or I'm a, a clown. Yeah. And I buy a big red nose. That's a costume. That- Mm ... you know, that makes sense. But if you're an influencer and you're buying that dress, who's to say they-

Hala: That you won't wear it to dinner

Haley: or something You're definitely wearing [00:59:00] it to dinner.

Yeah. And so I think it's just a little bit more of a gray area.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, but again, it is dependent on your CPA. I prefer to focus on other write-offs besides clothing. Yeah. I, of course, write some clothing off, but-

Hala: Mm-hmm ...

Haley: I don't wanna be audited. And so, um, I would rather use those other deductions.

Hala: Yeah.

When you say that you can write off rent, do you mean, like, a portion of your house- Mm-hmm ... for, like, your home office? Or like-

Haley: Yeah, home office.

Hala: Okay. That's

Haley: what you

Hala: were referring. 100%.

Haley: Okay. So I have an actual office, and so that's obviously a write-off.

Hala: Okay.

Haley: And then-

Hala: Outside of your home.

Haley: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And next door.

And then I have my office at home, which then is also tax deductible.

Hala: What are other, what are some other things that people should think about regarding taxes? Like, and, and-

Haley: I think the biggest thing- Be smart ... with taxes really is- The tax advantage accounts. Like understanding how to put money aside so that it brings down your taxable income.

Mm-hmm. That's like the biggest hack. When it comes to the deductions, that's assuming, I'm assuming you have a lot of entrepreneurs, [01:00:00] so they're taking itemized deductions, so that's, you know, its own beast.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: But I, I would also say to be wary of spending money as a write-off.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Never let that influence your spending.

Spend in the way that's appropriate for your business, and then afterwards you let the chips fall where they may.

Hala: Yeah, you don't wanna spend $100,000 to save $25,000.

Haley: No, not at all. Which a lot of people do. I mean, when you look at, like, charity galas, you know, like the Met Gala is a- Mm-hmm ... charity gala, and people are like, "Oh my God, yeah, it's a tax write-off for people to do that."

But you are o- the only write-off is after the fair price of the ticket.

Hala: Mm.

Haley: So, you know, between renting the Met and the entertainment and the cost of your plate, maybe it's a, you know, $20,0000 ticket at fair market value, but then they just charge it for 30,000, so you're still spending 20K. Maybe you got a 10, for $10,000 write-off- Yeah

but you're still spending 20K.

Hala: Yeah. [01:01:00] As an entrepreneur, something that I think about, so, like, um, I take out a good salary. My, my business partner Kate takes out a salary. We've got employees. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, like, whatever cash that we have left over in the business at the end of the year gets massively taxed.

One of the reasons why I left New York is because I lost f- literally 50% of my money in 2024 after my b- and I, we had such a good year. We made so much money, and then I had to hand over so much money to the government- Mm-hmm ... and it made me sick.

Haley: Yeah.

Hala: And I was like, gosh, like, I should've spent that money.

Haley: Mm-hmm.

Hala: And so now I'm always thinking about before the end of the year, what can I spend in marketing-

Haley: Mm-hmm ...

Hala: to grow my business? Yeah. So for example, like I have a podcast network. I grow and monetize 50 other podcasts.

Haley: Great.

Hala: So I think about, like, well, for a long time I wasn't giving out, like, advances. Uh, now if I want a podcaster I'm like, "Fuck it, I'll give them an advance," because it just helps me, like, kind of like- Add value

spend money. Yeah. Add value. [01:02:00] I know I'm gonna make money off that- Mm-hmm ... podcaster and then I kind of, like, keep, like, delaying when I get that money- Mm-hmm ... but I know it's coming. Mm-hmm. And so I'll think about, like, what conferences can I sponsor, what, like, what marketing can I spend- Yeah ... so that I'm not left over with all this cash that just goes to the government at the end of the year.

Do you think that's a smart way to go about it? I

Haley: think that's so smart.

Hala: Okay. '

Haley: Cause you're adding value to your bottom line.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: I think the smartest thing that you did was moving.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Like, that's- Definitely ... genius

Hala: Do you ever think about moving?

Haley: I do, but it's hard now 'cause I, like I think I'll stay in New York.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, and it's a big cost to pay.

Hala: And Dow Jones is like in New York, right? Or-

Haley: Yeah, but I have not affiliated with them. But they are here. I have to stay close. I know,

Hala: but like I just feel like you're like s- your

Haley: brand- I have to be close ... is so New York.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: I know. But it's, um, it's a big cost to pay, and I- I hate it, but it's, uh, it is what makes sense for me right now.

Like I- Yeah ... pay a hefty price to be here. Yeah. But like I grew up here. I think [01:03:00] there's so much value in your social network.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And I have such a big network here. Yeah. And so that would be hard to give up. Um, but I think a lot about living like half-time in Miami, but I think it's just different now 'cause I have a partner.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Um, I was single for so long. I probably should've done it then. Yeah. But now I'm like screwed because, uh, I- my partner wants to be here too.

Hala: Yeah, and s- so the same point we were talking about before, like just you gotta make, like you gotta make more money. Like, you know what I mean? Like you could just make more money to live the lifestyle that you want, no matter what city you live in.

Like there's plenty of really wealthy, successful people who live in New York and make it work.

Haley: Yeah, but it does suck. Like I- Whenever I look at my bank account- You're like, "It does suck" ... after they take out the quarterlies, oh my God, I'm like-

Hala: It does suck. It's been awesome. Like I've been able to... That's why I can buy an office now.

So cool. Like buy like a huge building.

Haley: So happy for you.

Hala: Thank you. Um, okay. This has been such an awesome interview. Um, before we go, something that I wanna ask you is like for everybody [01:04:00] tuning in, um, what do you want them to do in the next 24 hours to level up their finances?

Haley: I want you in the next 24 hours to drop an anchor and have a money date, 'cause I guarantee the majority of people listening to this, especially it will be six weeks from now, so summer will be over.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And they probably have a summer spending hangover, and they don't really know where they're at. They haven't looked at their bank statements and their credit card statements for the last, you know, how kn- I don't know how long.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: So look at the last three months, and that will give you so much momentum.

It'll take, you know, 15, 20 minutes. Look at, you know, subscriptions you can cancel. What are your big spending categories? Where are you at? Where are you bleeding? And then that'll gives you the information to know where you wanna go.

Hala: Mm-hmm.

Haley: But what you measure will never grow.

Hala: Hmm.

Haley: So it's so important to drop an anchor and actually understand where you're at if you want to grow wealth.

Hala: Hmm. And what are the [01:05:00] ways that people can implement more friction in their lives so that they don't like... We're, it's so easy to just spend. Like we were just- Yeah ... talking about like-

Haley: Apple Pay.

Hala: Well, yeah, like one of the- Revolve ... one of the things that I do is like I'll be scrolling at night, and like I'm so susceptible to ads that I get at night.

I know.

Haley: Uh,

Hala: so- Night,

Haley: night is so bad ...

Hala: two clicks and I just buy what I want. Like I just buy whatever, or like I'll find myself like doom scrolling on Revolve.

Haley: Oh, yeah, I did, was doing

Hala: that last night. You know what I mean? Like so-

Haley: I'm like I've already looked at all the new in, and I'm not buying any of this.

What am I doing?

Hala: Yeah, and it's so funny that like if for some reason like it asks for my like CVC code and I don't know it, it's like fucking- You stop ... I'm not gonna buy

Haley: this. Then you forget it.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: I know. It's so crazy. Uh, well, so what I do a lot, I didn't do it obviously with the Poshmark dress, but- ... uh, they, they got me good.

Hala: Hopefully f- fits.

Haley: Hopefully it fits. I think it will. Um, but what I do is, A, remove my cards from Apple Pay. That helps a lot, [01:06:00] but I also wait, try and wait three days before I make a purchase. So-

Hala: Mm.

Haley: There's actually this app in Asia Where you can buy things, scroll, buy, add to cart, and then check out, and then it just, like, never charges you, and you never, uh, get sent anything.

And I'm like, I sort of get that because I love-

Hala: Wait, say that again.

Haley: Like, it's like, it, it simulates shopping.

Hala: Oh.

Haley: But it's not you're actually paying for anything. 'Cause I feel like- Oh, so you

Hala: can, like, pretend shop? '

Haley: Cause shopping is so fun. It is. I love shopping. Yeah. Like, I'm going to Greece tomorrow with my best friend, and we're going to Amorgos, which is a little, this little island, but we're going to Athens for a few days before.

Mm. And it's, like, what I'm most... Like, one of my favorite things in the world is, like, having a day where I'm off work and I'm with one of my best friends, and they have good style, and then we just, like, leisurely bop into stores. Mm. Yeah. You, like, hope for that special moment where you find that dress or that pair of sunglasses.

Yeah. And it's just like you've made your own money and you can buy that thing for yourself. Totally. It's the best freaking feeling. But then sometimes you get home and you're like, "Why did I buy a [01:07:00] hairbrush?" Like, I know it's, like, a cool hairbrush, but I have four other hairbrushes. Yeah. Like, but it's like, no, I just wanted that feeling.

So, um, I would say wait three days before you pay. Remove the Apple Pay. Um, I... Mute so many freaking influencers, and also try and train your algorithm. Like, that's a lot of what I do online with, like, my likes- Yeah ... is I'm sending them places where it's gonna send me more business content versus, like, shopping or food content.

Mm. And sometimes I actually go on Instagram and, like, customize it if it's too much because, A, I don't cook that much, so why- Yeah ... am I seeing so many food videos? And, B, like, I don't need to see, like, all these girls with insane style who, like, are as good at dressing as I am at, you know, being Mrs. Dow Jones, so you're seeing the best of the best.

Yeah. And it's like, makes me feel bad, and then I wanna dress and be like them, but I'm never gonna even get close to it.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: So I, yeah, unfollow a lot of people.

Hala: I feel like you can also, like, go into... I know for, like, especially my, like, business credit [01:08:00] cards, you can go in and, like, set a limit.

Haley: Yeah, setting

Hala: limits is good.

Like, 'cause, 'cause they might give you a really big limit, but you can set your own limit. And then if it declines, you're like, "Oh, shit, I spent way too much money this month."

Haley: Yeah, it's all about just having a goalie. And then you know what the best thing is?

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Buy a printer.

Hala: A printer.

Haley: Buy a printer and print the freaking label.

Print it the moment that it... Like, that's my secret- Oh,

Hala: like to return?

Haley: Yeah, return. I'm doing returns all the time- Me too ... because it's like-

Hala: That's, like, my assistant's number one job is to return

Haley: my stuff. Yeah. But it's like that, but that's okay. Like, as long as it's going back. Yeah, you're- Like, it's like obviously it would be better if you weren't buying in the first place- Yeah

you hear. But it's like get it out. If it's not perfect or whatever, get it out.

Hala: Yeah.

Haley: Um, yeah.

Hala: Love that. Okay, um, I end my show with two questions I ask all of my guests.

Haley: Okay, love that.

Hala: What is one actionable thing our Young and Profiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

Haley: I would say the best thing you can do to be more profitable tomorrow is ask for more.

Hala: Like, [01:09:00] tell me more.

Haley: Like, raise your prices.

Hala: Raise your prices,

Haley: yeah. Raise your prices. Uh, cut clients who are sucking you dry and not- Yeah ... paying you enough. Like, audit your time so you're actually being paid what you deserve for what you're putting in.

Hala: Yeah. I totally agree. And what would you say your secret to profiting in life is?

This can go beyond finance. I know you're Miss Dow Jones. Mm. You love talking finance. But what is your secret to profiting in life? And it can, it could be finance related, actually.

Haley: I think it all comes down to my relationship with myself.

Hala: Ooh.

Haley: Like, it really is that I have a good relationship with myself, I bet on myself, and I, you know, work on improving myself and loving myself, and, like, that has built so much equity in who I am, and allow me to go out in the world and chase my dreams.

Mm. And nothing, for me, like we said, has happened overnight. Yeah. Not my business, not my book, not my relationship. Nothing has happened overnight. [01:10:00] Everything has taken me through so much darkness first. Yeah. And so I think that, you know, we always see those images of, like, the root of a tree, and it's, they go so deep, and then finally you see it spring up and be this beautiful thing.

Yeah. And when you're on social media or whatever, you just see the beautiful thing, but you don't see the root. So work on your root, and even if it doesn't feel like you're getting anywhere, just make little bits of progress, and bet on yourself, and nurture yourself.

Hala: That's so beautiful. And you are just such a great example of that, that, like, it wasn't a overnight success.

Yeah. It took 10 years to get to where you are.

Haley: Yeah, totally.

Hala: Help us understand, like, what-

Haley: And I'm still learning every day. Yeah. Like, it's like I'm not, like, it's not a, you know, like, all, I'm sure you feel like that, too. That's why entrepreneurship is so addicting and fun, because it just keeps you guessing, and you're always trying to turn a trick.

Hala: And it's so crazy, because it's like, I, I came across to you only recently.

Haley: Oh, wow.

Hala: Yeah, like, I, and, and, like, it's like, I, for, for me, I [01:11:00] thought you were, like, somebody new who popped up.

Haley: Oh, no.

Hala: Yeah, girl. You know? And it's- I've been

Haley: here ...

Hala: you've been here. Yeah. And it's like, so, it's just, it's, it just goes to show that it's, like, everybody has their own journey.

Haley: Yeah.

Hala: And it's like, you have, like, an incredible book that came out. Mm-hmm. You've got so many social media followers. Mm-hmm. What a, like, and do you have another business as well?

Haley: Yeah, I have my podcast as well, which is great. Very

Hala: cool.

Haley: And yeah, it's like-

Hala: Amazing. Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

Haley: Um, go to missessaojones.com. Uh, everything is there, the book, you'll find my podcast, my social media. I post daily financial clips on social media where I use pop culture to teach you about money. Mm. So if you like pop culture, I'm your girl, and you wanna be rich. And yeah, my podcast is called Financial Tea, and it's out every Thursday.

Hala: Amazing. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Haley.

Haley: Have a good one.

Hala: You did so good. Thank you. Thank

Haley: you. I appreciate it. That was so fun.

Hala: Good.