[00:00:00] Hala Taha: What's up, young improfiters? Welcome back to the show. And my, oh my, do we have a yap classic in store for you today? In fact, today we're replaying one of my very first episodes, which was originally recorded back in 2018. The interview is with Chase Hughes, and this was one of my first ever episodes to go viral.

It went viral on SoundCloud, it went viral on YouTube, and till this day, we're still getting thousands of views a month on this episode, and it's because it is such great content. I love this episode, and when I think of Yap Classics, this is one of the first episodes that comes to mind for me. Chase Hughes is a leading behavior expert in the United States, and he's a best selling author.

He wrote the Bible of human behavior called the Ellipsis Manual, and he teaches elite groups, government agencies, and police in behavior science skills like behavioral profiling, nonverbal analysis, interrogation, and advanced behavioral investigation. In this episode, we talk all about how to gain influence.

Chase breaks down several advanced human behavior concepts, like how to read somebody's blink rate. What questions to ask yourself when meeting somebody new, and why authority is so important when you're trying to gain influence. This is truly one of our most classic episodes at YAP, and I think you guys are going to love hearing it again.

Without further ado, here's my interview with the brilliant Chase Hughes.

 [00:01:40] Hala Taha: Hey Chase, welcome to the show! Thanks, 

[00:01:42] Chase Hughes: Holla. 

[00:01:42] Hala Taha: Glad to be here. 

would you explain to our listeners who you are, what you do for your day job, and why you spent so many years studying the power of body language? 

[00:01:51] Chase Hughes: I run a behavior science company based in Virginia Beach, and we teach behavior science to intelligence operations units, military, federal government, and for the first time ever in January, we're releasing all of our behavior training to the public.

 But we specialize in interrogation, behavior profiling, deception detection, interviewing techniques, and just behavior science in general that uses psychological tactics to gain compliance from people in the field. Very cool. And 

[00:02:24] Hala Taha: so why is body language so 

[00:02:25] Chase Hughes: powerful? Why it's powerful, I'm not sure.

I'm sure there's some evolutionary stuff that some smarter people than me could come up with, but and I think that one of the things that's always fascinated me was that it makes up a consensus is around two thirds of communication, of what's actually being communicated, and we study it so infrequently. So like a Harvard psychologist, for example, would go through all of the school and maybe have about 20 minutes or less.

on nonverbal communication and body language. Which is just astounding to me that there's a resounding amount of studies that say that it's so much of our communication and how, how vital and important it is. And not even our healthcare practitioners, our mental health practitioners, much less a regular doctor, uh, get training in this kind of stuff.

[00:03:18] Hala Taha: In your book, you talk about psychological loopholes. And how our minds are wired to be manipulated. Can you talk about that 

[00:03:27] Chase Hughes: a little bit? and Sure. We have what I call the firewall illusion. Or the firewall delusion. That we think that there's some kind of firewall in our brain that prevents us from being manipulated.

and Uh, we see someone else get manipulated and we say, Oh, that would, that would never happen to me. I would never, uh, obey an order to kill someone. I would never join a cult. I would never buy that thing just because a commercial told me to. And what's really funny is that the illusion that just the belief of, of you having a firewall makes you ten times more manipulatable.

And it makes you more easily influenced, and it's easier for someone to kind of hijack your brain. and Just imagine, like, if you thought that you could not be manipulated or controlled, and someone was doing it to you, during the process of you being manipulated, you still feel safe. And you'll rationalize to yourself after the event occurs that you made your own choices and your own decisions.

[00:04:30] Hala Taha: So I think something that could really set the stage is something I've heard you talk about before. It's called the Milgram experiment. 

Would you describe that to our listeners who aren't familiar? Sure. 

[00:04:40] Chase Hughes: So the two minute explanation of this is in 1962 there's a doctor, a Harvard psychologist named Dr.

Stanley Milgram. And he was watching the war trials, which are called the Nuremberg trials, where they brought these Nazi war criminals and put them on trial and ask why they were murdering people by the thousands. And the resounding answer from so many of these people was that they were just following orders.

I was just following orders. And Milgram's parents were Jewish and actually made it out. But he wanted to prove, he wanted to figure out some way to scientifically prove whether or not it's possible that a person can just be following orders. So they have this experiment. You respond to this newspaper ad, they're going to pay for your meals, they'll pay you every day.

So you go in there and there's a, uh, guy standing there in a lab coat. And you draw straws. It's just you and one other person. You draw a straw. One straw is the teacher, one straw is the learner. And in reality, the guy that you're in the room with is part of the experiment. You're the only person that's actually a participant.

So you will always draw the teacher's straw. and So you and this other guy, who's the student, the learner, go into this other room that's adjoining the room that you'll be sitting in, and you watch him get sat down into a chair, and they say, we're doing a study on punishment and learning, and whether punishment improves a person's ability to learn.

So you watch this guy get strapped to these electrodes that are specifically designed to deliver electric shocks when he gets a wrong answer. So they even put one on your arm and let you feel what the shock feels like, and it's pretty painful. So this guy's all strapped in, they shut the door, you're on the other side of the wall from this guy.

They sit you down in front of this big control box, it's got voltage buttons on it, going from 0 volts to 450 I think, and then after that it says XXX. The final button. So, for every time this guy gets an answer wrong, which he does deliberately, over and over again, you have to deliver increasing amounts of voltage.

So, in this room, where you're seated in front of this big box, it's you, a clipboard, and you've got to read some words to this guy and ask him a question, and the other guy behind you is the guy in the lab coat who's running the experiment. So, he's kind of the authority figure there. So, delivering shocks above 400 could be potentially lethal.

So, these people are delivering shocks every time, and it's getting increasing. The guy's screaming on the other side of the wall, you can hear him, he's pounding on the wall. Eventually, he says, I have a heart condition, I don't want to participate anymore, I'm out of here, get me out of here, just screaming.

And finally, around 350 to 400 volts, you hear no more sound at all. And he stops answering questions completely. And the guy in the lab coat says, any non answer must be treated as an incorrect answer. Continue the experiment, please. So keep shocking this guy. Keep going. So before this experiment started, this group of psychiatrists and psychologists sat down together and and they decided that about 01 percent of people 01 would go all the way to killing the other person.

And all the way to the maximum. And as it turns out, 65 percent of people committed murder In less than an hour, because a stranger told them to. That's unbelievable. It is. And it's hard to think that we would do that. Everyone, of course, you ask, like, would you ever do this? Of course, everyone's gonna say, no, never, I would never do this.

And that illusion is what makes it dangerous. That when we're exposed to an authority figure, our brains kind of switch off. And we go into what Stanley Milgram described as an agentic shift. So agentic being, uh, the root word being agent. So we become an agent for the other person to where the responsibility for our actions no longer rely on our shoulders.

It's someone else's fault. So, we obey authority figures with way more obedience and way more trust than we should place in those people. So, for instance, the guy in the lab coat didn't have a doctor's ID on, wasn't wearing a stethoscope. It was just a good looking guy and whose hair was recently cut. He's well spoken, well mannered.

And all he says to the participants in the experiment is, It's important that you continue. The experiment requires that you continue. Or please continue. Just a few phrases like that. And at no time did he force anyone to participate. But, guess how many people shocked another person in the other room up to 100 volts?

It was 100%. And 0 percent across the entire experiment, over thousands of people, 0 percent went into the other room to check on the other person. 

[00:09:40] Hala Taha: Yeah, it just speaks to how important it is to kind of be conscious. Of the fact that everybody is so easily manipulated and you can either be the one in control or you could be the one getting controlled.

So, really eye opening. So glad that we're having this conversation. In your past to kind of getting people aware of all of this, you created something called the ellipsis system. Can you explain what that is? Yeah, 

[00:10:06] Chase Hughes: so the ellipsis system was designed originally for intelligence operations. So human psychological intelligence operations.

So in a hypothetical environment here, I've got to send you your intelligence asset, and I send you over to the Ukraine and you have to meet with a guy you've never met before, and you have two hours to convince him to basically commit treason against his own country. And spy for you and give you information.

And the ellipsis system was designed to create extreme compliance and extreme obedience and people, and it leverages behavior profiling, identifying needs, weaknesses, and insecurities. And then using all that information, using psychological tactics, linguistic techniques, mixtures of neuro linguistic programming and hypnosis, and a tremendous amount of authority, which is what caused people to commit murder in the Milgram experiment.

That was pretty much 100 percent authority. So authority is very important. That's one of the reasons that we broke authority down, in that if you had no persuasion or influence skills whatsoever, Authority would be the most important part. But that's what the book was was really written for and I didn't really realize that there was a civilian interest in psychology Mostly because i've been in the military my entire adult 

[00:11:35] Hala Taha: life.

 the amount of depth that you go into this book is like insane. It's pretty overwhelming, to be honest. You talk about something that we always hear about, for example, crossing our arms. Yeah.

[00:11:53] Hala Taha: Intuitively, I always thought that. That meant something negative, like we either impatient or frustration, But in your book you go into the fact that you need to pay attention to the closeness of palms to the body. The direction the thumbs are pointing.

The distance from the torso. And it was just so overwhelming and I'm wondering, like, who can actually pay attention to this stuff? Like, is it really possible to memorize what people are doing and then to go back and evaluate what everybody's doing? How does someone go about, like, training themselves and how long does that take for someone to become an 

[00:12:26] Chase Hughes: expert?

Expert is a word I think is overused today. Becoming an expert may take years. Years and years. But being good at reading body language does not take an expert level of skill. And a lot of people assume at the very beginning that they see this giant behavior table, like, okay, I need to make flashcards, I need to memorize all this stuff.

And you really don't. You read up on this stuff, and then you watch human behavior. So if you just spent two weeks just watching human behavior, watching fingers, watching eyes, watching facial muscles move, watching the body. The way people's posture tilts. All of this stuff. How fast or how often someone is blinking or breathing during a conversation.

If just observing this stuff without trying to make meaning of any of it. Just observing it for its own sake. So you start to get a habit, you're starting to push yourself into a habit of just observing behavior. And then after time, you start reading about more behavior, and reading about more behavior, and then you won't have to interpret anything.

You'll kind of start to develop an intuition. So it's not like learning geometry or some skill. I would say it's more akin to learning a motorcycle. Like we have a lot of things going on at one time and it's best to just master one thing at a time until it moves from the front of your brain, where you have to pay attention to it, to the back of your brain to where it's kind of automatic.

So like driving was really hard at first. Until you got good at it, and now you can kind of zone out on your way home from work. So, it'll become unconscious, but I'd say the most important thing to being able to read people, and this is a skill that everyone needs, like, if you're in sales, you're in the human behavior business.

If you're in business, you deal with human behavior on a regular basis. So being able to see the stuff... and really understand what it means is so critical. I mean, even if it's two thirds and not 90 percent of communication, like a lot of studies suggest, it's more than half of communication, and we almost deliberately ignore it.

So I think once you're able to start seeing behavior, just watching it for its own sake, and then learning more about it, the first thing that usually happens to people is that it's really depressing. Because you will see suffering and insecurity and fear in every person that you meet. But in the end, suffering is like the universal law of human beings.

Everyone is suffering. Everyone's going through something. Everyone is self conscious. I've never met a non self conscious person. So, I think what that does, after you kind of get over like, Yeah, everybody's screwed up. It gets to a place where people are more approachable and they're more human. So it just kind of humanizes everybody, and it takes away a lot of your own social anxiety once you can see how screwed up everybody else is.

[00:15:23] Hala Taha: I hope that one day I'll be able to do this. For now, I just need to practice. And I think that you mentioned that using different TV shows is a good way to start getting familiar with everything, right? Yeah, 

[00:15:35] Chase Hughes: I had a client recently who was training with me, and she wanted to bring up her favorite reality show at the time, which was called Catfish.

And I had never heard of it, and I'm not a big TV guy. But this is a show on MTV where these people pretend to be like a hot guy or a hot girl and like lure these people into these relationships online. And then, of course, it comes up in this big crescendo, this emotional crescendo at the end where there's a big reveal and stuff.

But it's very telling, because it's not fiction. So it's kind of a reality show. So you get to see a whole lot of, uh, facial expressions of emotion. That's one of the good ones. And then if you want to look for anxiety, I would watch Conan O'Brien interviewing almost anybody will produce, uh, anxiety behavior.

[00:16:22] Hala Taha: So some of the more interesting body signals that I kind of came across in your book were Yawning, eye blink rate, palm exposure, inward toe pointing, and shoe removal. Do you want to just speak to some of those and give examples of what these body signals 

[00:16:38] Chase Hughes: mean? Absolutely. So, one thing that your listeners could take away right now.

is blink rate. This is how often, not how fast, but how often someone blinks. And the less often we blink, the more interested and absorbed we are in a conversation. So the last time you watched your favorite movie, a movie that you really liked, which like, for me would be like, Interstellar. When I watched Interstellar, my blink rate was probably between a 7 and a 12 blinks per minute.

And if you think back to like, when you took the math portion of your SATs, Or you're taking a really hard exam in college. Your blink rate can go up to like 55 per minute without you even noticing that there was a shift. So stress increases behavior, so does some kinds of discomfort. So like if you're on a date and the blink rate is really low, you don't have to count per minute.

You just see whether or not it's speeding up, slowing down, whether or not it's slow or it's fast. So you shift conversation topics, and if you're a guy and you start talking about like how you change your transmission out on your car and all the process of how to do that, and you see the blink rate go up, it's time to change the subject.

 And as a public speaker, I speak to crowds of 200 or 300 on a regular basis. One thing that I do is I take a few people in the first two rows and as I'm making eye contact I'm taking the blink rate of the average of the room to measure the interest of everyone in the room. as I'm moving around I can see how often people are blinking because I'm making eye contact with people in the audience.

I know when everybody's interested in the topic I can keep going a little bit or when I just need to kind of move forward. Something 

[00:18:16] Hala Taha: else I found interesting was the shoe removal concept. So, from what I remember, it's if you take off your shoe, it means that you're comfortable, you're confident, you feel secure.

And I do notice that when I'm in a meeting with top executives, they're the ones that are like playing with their 

[00:18:32] Chase Hughes: shoes. Yeah, absolutely. It's usually the person who's most comfortable does it first. With his authority, gives permission for other people to also relax. 

[00:18:41] Hala Taha: Yeah, and I wonder if they know about it and they're doing it on purpose, or if it's just subconscious, but probably 

[00:18:46] Chase Hughes: subconscious, right?

I bet most of it's unconscious. Yeah, I've trained a lot of executives who are, uh, behaviorally illiterate. So 

[00:18:53] Hala Taha: something else you cover in your book is the 17 human needs and profiling them for weaknesses. We obviously don't have time to cover them all, but can you talk about why it's important to understand people's motivations and explain that to 

[00:19:06] Chase Hughes: our listeners?

Absolutely. So, one of the biggest things that you can do when you're talking with someone is just kind of ask yourself questions during the conversation. Something like, what makes this person feel significant? What kind of compliments do this person's friends give them that makes them feel good? So, in the very beginning of an interaction, you'll hear those questions, and you'll hear the answers to those questions.

So you'll see either where they need acceptance, uh, or approval, or appreciation of some sort. If you want to break it down, without going into the needs, there are just six basic questions that you can use during a conversation. Number one, what need are they showing me right now? So is it a need for significance, acceptance, approval, appreciation, need for variety and multiple experiences?

Next would be, what do they like to be complimented on? Number three would be, what makes them feel strong? Number four, what do they avoid in order to be happy or feel happy? Number five, what does happy sound like? And their words and their tone. So, what words do they use when they're talking about something they enjoy?

Which are words that you can later use during the conversation. And number six. What is at the end? Where do they want to end up? So those six questions will help you in pretty much any conversation that you could have. Especially in social scenarios. 

[00:20:34] Hala Taha: So something else I think our listeners would find very useful is your five qualities of authority. And I thought maybe we could go into some detail here. The five qualities are control, discipline, leadership, gratitude, And enjoyment. Could you just go through each one and talk about the things you think are most important to discuss?

[00:20:52] Chase Hughes: Yes. And, and since we've done some more research, uh, we've replaced control with confidence. So it's confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude, and enjoyment. So those five factors pretty much give you authority. So having that confidence or just being completely certain that the positive outcome is going to happen helps you to have more control over the social situation.

So those five qualities alone, if you were just to work on those in your own life. Those give you that social authority. Those are what trigger in people's brain. So think of like the Milgram experiment or any experiment that's been done on authority. That authority figure has to have those five qualities in order to control the outcome to define what the situation means or what they call setting a frame.

And that authority figure has to have those five qualities in order to get compliance or obedience or attention or focus from anyone in the room. 

[00:21:53] Hala Taha: So, in your opinion, what does it take to have confidence or have discipline or have leadership? Can you talk a little deeper about that? 

[00:22:04] Chase Hughes: Sure. So I would say that confidence especially is one of the most important.

So confidence by itself doesn't really do anything without the other four. Just like everything else. They need each other to survive. But in order to have confidence, let's say all of these go from a 1 to 5. I developed what I call the authority assessment scale to see where a person is on each one of these.

So like a level 1 would be a burden on other people. A level 2 would be developing. Level 3 be positive. 4 is inspirational and 5 is contagious. So like on a confidence, a level one would be like, you're unable to start conversations with a stranger. You have a sense of panic when you're meeting new people, unable to introduce yourself to strangers, you're socially withdrawn, you're unable to accept compliments from people, take criticism way too personally, unable to offer your own opinions in most conversations, gripping or frequent indecision, giving up on goals regularly.

And changing yourself to please other people. So that would be like a level one. And a level five, where you're contagious. So, your confidence is contagious to the point where other people are around you, they become confident. That would be like you're able to converse with anyone at any time. You receive criticism well, regardless of the source.

Your self image is really positive, you have no need for reassurance. Take action, like physical action with your body, without reservation or hesitation. And you tactfully stop all negativity when it's being discussed around you. You set detailed and relevant goals. Others tend to emulate your behavior and personality traits at the level 5 level of all of these.

 Yeah, that's 

[00:23:54] Hala Taha: so interesting. I feel like if there was one thing that every professional could use is this assessment tool and making sure they kind of move up the ladder in a positive way.

 I was listening to an interview that you had recently and you were talking about how you're able to tell a lot about a person just by having a phone conversation with them.

Can you talk about how your personal life can leak out and your external actions and everything that you do and how we kind of have to have our own discipline in our personal lives? 

[00:24:22] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. And this is one of the most critical things for somebody to really understand. That on the phone, it comes in the form of hesitation.

It comes in the form of people saying, um, or, uh, or hedging some of the stuff they know, like they're have question marks on the ends of their sentences. So they're inviting other people to agree with them, even though it's a statement. And over the phone, especially you'll hear the indecisions. You'll hear people that are kind of have non decisive language.

Like I just did with the word kind of. And I just slipped it in. So this overall sense of confidence or discipline or leadership bleeds out into your personal life. So a good example would be the last time that you went to a party, or the last time you went out to a concert or something, and you left a giant pile of laundry undone.

Or you left a huge pile of dishes in the sink. Or you're late on your bills. Meant to wash your car that day, but you didn't, and you're, it looks like it's disgusting. So something was left undone. Part of our brain, I don't know which part, I don't think anyone does. But there's part of our brain that's dedicated to reminding us when we've forgotten to do something or when we've neglected something.

And no matter how confident your body language is, no matter how in control and how many tactics and cool stuff you learn on YouTube, or how many articles you read about how to appear more confident, it's, it's going to look confident on the exterior. But the event will happen to the point where the person gets the feeling like something's not right.

And we've all experienced that with one or two people, at least in our lives, to where we've, we're talking to somebody, everything looks right on the exterior, but something feels off. Something doesn't match. So this incongruence, there's an incongruence in the Physical behavior of the person you're speaking to and something that's leaking out.

We call this nonverbal leakage So we are somehow unconsciously communicating to their unconscious that we're not actually confident. We're not actually a good leader. we neglected something at home. So my key point is that if you don't have what we call the five mastery zones of authority, if you don't have those things handled in your personal life, it's going to leak out in every conversation, every day of your life, sometimes you'll might get away with it and the person may not notice.

Most of the time, something is going to feel off about the conversation to the other person. And those mastery zones are environment, time, appearance, social, and financial. And they have to be done in order. So like, you get your environment handled, you make your bed, you pick up after yourself. You don't leave messes, you don't make messes, and you don't walk past a mess, ever.

Like, your environment is controlled, not by anyone else, but like, you are in control of your environment. That helps build the confidence. And then you start controlling your time. You manage your time, and you cannot manage time without priorities. Because whenever you hear somebody says, Oh, I don't have time for that.

It just means it's not a priority. I don't have time to go to the gym, means gym's not a priority. I don't have time to eat right. Eating right's not a priority. So controlling your time, getting control over your time. And then your physical appearance. There are thousands of research studies that say better looking people Not just genetically better looking, but people who are well taken care of, people who look fit and look happy and look confident receive lesser prison sentences.

They're more likely to get out of a traffic ticket. They'll have better pay at jobs. They're more likely to get hired. All around our entire society, this appearance plays a major role, and it plays a major role in your authority too, when you speak to other people. Whether you're in sales, business, doesn't matter, or you're working at Williams Sonoma.

It doesn't matter. Appearance comes after that, and after that is your social skills, your social development. So being able to carry on a regular conversation. Can I make small talk? Can I tell a compelling story to someone that I just met? Without, like, closing off. So forcing yourself to develop social muscles is really important.

And finally, the financial part. Even if your finances are screwed up, your credit is screwed up, go see somebody now. Just having your brain start to understand that you're getting back on track will shut off that leakage. So just starting to bring that under control or grab the steering wheel and like drive it back onto the road where it's supposed to be with your finances, that stops the nonverbal leakage of irresponsibility to some degree.

That's 

[00:29:10] Hala Taha: super, super helpful advice. I feel like if everybody could just make a little movement in those areas, we'll all be in a better place. Okay, so I thought maybe we could close out the episode with some practical scenarios. I think a really interesting one could be... A networking event being at a networking event, what are the kind of behaviors that we should look out for?

How should we act ourselves? Can you kind of just like describe like what an ideal situation would be in terms of a networking event? 

[00:29:41] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. And if you want this from like a intelligence training perspective, the first thing you need to do before the network event starts, is to push yourself as hard as you fricking can to get up to a level five on confidence, leadership, discipline, gratitude, and enjoyment.

That alone will make you more magnetic than anyone else in the room. So that being said, everyone wants to teach you the tricks. Here's what to say. Here's how to shake someone's hand. You need to make eye contact. You need to smile. You need to show your teeth when you smile, even if they don't look great.

So these are all little tricks. And when you see like networking tricks, how to meet new people, all of that are ways to pretend like you've got your stuff together. So if you think about all the tricks and tactics of persuasion, they're all ways to pretend or kind of fake someone out into thinking that you have.

Either confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude, or you're enjoying yourself. All of those things. So getting those handled beforehand means you're not going to have to worry about the tricks when you're meeting new people. But at a networking event, I would say the number one quality that you can have is a genuine interest in other people.

At a networking event, everyone wants to talk about themselves, talk about their new product that they're launching, the business they're working on, and they want to talk about their goals, which goes back to that six questions. So those are, just kind of those x ray questions will really help you out in a conversation.

And just talking to people and having that genuine interest. And making people feel interesting is more important than making them feel interested. So, at the networking event, if you're going to a networking event, be the first one to introduce yourself. Be the first one to introduce a stranger you just met to another stranger that you just met.

You become the network. So you become the web as much as possible to the furthest extent to introduce other people that you just met to someone that else that you just met. And you kind of be the glue that kind of holds everybody together. Be the first one to hand out your business card. Be the first one to reach out.

 I've been to some networking events here in Virginia Beach, and you see people that are afraid to talk to each other who came to an event Specifically designed for people to talk to each other. So I would say, if there's any place on earth where you have permission to go talk to strangers anytime you want, it's a networking event.

And that's one of your chances also to start boosting up the social part of the Authority Mastery Zone. 

[00:32:10] Hala Taha: Very cool. Very good advice. Scenario number two. A conflict with an individual, whether that's work 

[00:32:16] Chase Hughes: or school. So, this one, I will give you a few tips and tricks. Although, I'm a firm believer that you can learn 99 percent of your leadership lessons from watching episodes of Andy Griffith.

 if you're having to have a difficult conversation with someone, you have to announce their point of view before you begin speaking. Or before you start talking about anything that's on your agenda to speak about. Always start the conversation with, I realize it's gotta be really tough for you to be able to do X, Y, and Z, or I can't imagine that you have to deal with this and this and this.

So you have to start out by realizing that other person's point of view, which I learned from Andy Griffith. I would say the best thing you can do is deliver it quick and have the conversation as quick as possible. And only speak in terms of effect, not your opinion on how the person has done something wrong or somehow transgressed against the company values or something like that.

Only speak in terms of the effect that the behavior has had instead of how the behavior is bad. 

[00:33:22] Hala Taha: And how can we kind of judge how well the conversation is going, like if we're making an impact and improving our relationship in the conversation? 

[00:33:30] Chase Hughes: You're going to see a decrease in blink rate once they realize there's not going to be a fight, they're not going to get yelled at, there's no argument, they're being given a second chance most of the time.

And as you start talking about the effect it has, you'll start to see head nodding and you'll see breathing into the stomach instead of the chest. But while you start nodding your head during the conversation and you're talking about the effect on the company or the effect on the business, you'll see a co nodding or them nodding their head with you.

And as you finish or start wrapping up talking about the effect they have had on the company or like the negative part of the conversation, you will start to see relaxation. That means there's more agreement there. That means there's less anger. So a person who's really pissed off and is going to remain pissed off when they go out of the office, they'll stay closed, their behavior is going to stay closed, even after the negative information.

A person who's kind of accepting of the negative information or the difficult conversation, you'll see their hands start to open up, their legs start to open up, their shoulders will kind of fall down just a little bit, their breathing weight is going to slow down, and their blink rate will also slow down.

As the stress kind of releases and they realize they have a second chance or that they've taken the lesson on. 

[00:34:45] Hala Taha: Got it. So, Chase, I want to be conscious of our time. So, where can our listeners find everything that you do or learn more about everything that you do?

[00:34:55] Chase Hughes: Yeah, they can Google my name, Chase Hughes, or they can go to our website, which is ellipsisbehavior. com. On the website, there's tons of training on there that's free. Tons of behavior profiling training that's free. And they can download all kinds of free resources. Because most of my target market is to the federal government or local police agencies.

So, stuff I do for the public is usually free. Got 

[00:35:19] Hala Taha: it. And your book is called The Ellipsis Manual, 

[00:35:21] Chase Hughes: correct? Yes, The Ellipsis Manual. We just hit 18 months on the number one bestseller list on Amazon. 

[00:35:27] Hala Taha: All right, cool. So thank you so much for joining the show. Like we mentioned, we're going to have all of our different resources in the show notes.

So for the folks that want to explore more, they'll have the mechanism to do that. And I definitely want to thank you for your time. This was very interesting and I hope you have a great 

[00:35:44] Chase Hughes: rest of your day. Thanks Hala. Great to be on the show.