[00:00:00] What's up YAP fam, today we're revisiting one of my all time favorite conversations with the inspiring Mark Batterson. We originally published this episode back in January 2022 as episode 154. Mark Batterson is the lead pastor of National Community Church in DC, DC. which owns and operates DC's largest coffeehouse, Ebeneezer's.

Mark is also a New York Times bestselling author who has written some of the most impactful books on faith, purpose, and living a life full of action. What makes Mark so special is his ability to connect the dots between big dreams and the small daily actions that can bring them to life. In this episode, we learn what it's like to be a social entrepreneur and run a business supporting a cause.

We'll get an inside look at Mark's unique and fulfilling career as a pastor, community [00:01:00] and an entrepreneur. We'll learn Mark's seven life changing habits and understand Mark's perspective on making and breaking habits. And lastly, we'll gain insight on how to better stick with our habits by using commitment devices and how to create chain reactions of good habits with the domino effect.

If you're interested in social entrepreneurship or want to learn how to better tackle your goals, let's jump right in this conversation with Mark Batterson. 

Hala Taha: Hey, Mark, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. 

Mark Batterson: Well, thank you so much. It's a joy to be with you. 

Hala Taha: Yeah, likewise. We're super excited to have you on here. For those who don't know you, you are the lead pastor of the National Community Church in Washington, D.

C. You are also a New York Times best selling author of 22 books, including Do It for a Day and Win the Day. And for today's episode, we're going to really focus on So today we're going to focus in on do it for a day, which is your methodology around how to build habits. And it's super fascinating, one of my favorite [00:02:00] topics.

And in addition to that, we also want to cover your journey because I found your journey really fascinating and unique and you have some great life lessons about that, about following your purpose, following your gut. So I would like to start there. When you were first setting out on your journey, you ended up getting a scholarship to the University of Chicago for basketball and you were going to.

But then you quickly decided to abandon those dreams and become a pastor. Let's start there. Talk to us about your, you know, start with college and how you made that big decision. 

Mark Batterson: Yeah, you know, I, I, let's be honest, I probably went to the best college I could get into. I barely got into the University of Chicago.

Playing basketball probably helped my case a little bit. But, uh, I was, I studied, uh, politics, economics, rhetoric, and law. Just kind of this liberal arts. degree and plan to go on that path. Thought that maybe law would be something I would be interested in. Long story short, I really had this moment [00:03:00] where I felt like, uh, maybe just maybe ministry, pastoring a church would be something that I would want to do, but I would want to do it in a unique way, kind of from the ground up.

I, I, I had this entrepreneurial streak that I love. And so we actually started with a core group of 19 people and a couple decades later, we've had the joy of impacting tens of thousands of people. And, and I might add, uh, giving about 25 million to causes that we really care about that make a difference in people's lives.

And so it's, it's been a joy ride. Nothing easy about leadership in any venue or any vein. But, uh, I kind of consider myself a spiritual coach, and, uh, like coaching people towards purpose, towards meaning, and really, uh, leveraging the gifts that I believe God has given to each one of us. 

Hala Taha: It's super, super interesting, and I really [00:04:00] love what you've done with the MCC and how you've really built that business model around your church.

So, uh, so much. From my understanding and from my research, I found out that you guys actually own one of the biggest coffee shops in Washington, D. C. It's called Ebenezer and it's actually a chain of coffee shops. It started with you guys buying one property in the early 2000s and then opening your doors in 2006 and it kind of just took off and I, I just found this so fascinating.

Why a coffee house and what can we learn about having a business from a cause and all the success that you've had? 

Mark Batterson: Yeah, you know, I think, uh, every business is owned by someone and they have some kind of motive in starting it. And if we're just keeping it real, you know, some people it's, it's primarily a profit motive.

And, you know, I'm, I'm grateful that we live in a, uh, a capitalist society where we can pursue dreams and, and I have nothing against that. But we, we started this coffee house, [00:05:00] um, with the idea that what if we actually gave all the profits away to causes that we care about. And so it really is coffee with a cause.

Now, I better back up a little bit. So we did buy a piece of property about, about five blocks from the Capitol itself, right on Capitol Hill, a block from Union Station. So it is location, location, location. In fact, we're kitty corner to the Security and Exchange Commission. And so, um, We've often joked if you can't make a coffeehouse work kitty corner to like thousands of people in law and finance, like you probably can't make it work anywhere.

So we, we do have a, uh, a great corner here on Capitol Hill and it's been an amazing, amazing business. Um, I think. Caffeine makes the world a better place, if we're just being honest. Like, I don't know about anybody else, but when I get up in the morning, until I get my caffeine, you don't want to spend a whole lot of time with me.

I need, [00:06:00] I need my morning coffee. And so we feel like we're both caffeinating the world and, uh, and then using those profits for some wonderful things like, uh, the DC Dream Center that we operate in Ward 7 and, uh, is just an amazing. outreach to a part of our city that is under resourced, and so we're mentoring kids.

We served 64, 000 meals last year, and so it's really this wonderful outreach, but part of what funds it is this coffeehouse that we own and operate here on Capitol Hill. 

Hala Taha: It's just so interesting that that's how you decided to kind of fund the different projects that your church takes on. And I have to imagine that a lot of people support the coffee shop because it's related to the church and that a lot of employees really love their job because it's so fulfilling even if they're not making like a whole ton of money working at a coffee shop, they know that it's going towards a good cause.

So talk to us about that a little bit and the [00:07:00] culture that it's driven. 

Mark Batterson: Yeah, I think the coffee tastes a little bit better, feels a little bit better when you know that it's making a difference. Uh, and in fact, we use our space, part of our coffee house is we have a performance space that, you know, we can, Do events for 100, 150 people.

Well, every, every week, once a week, we turn that into something we call the living room for our friends, experiencing homelessness, which are kind of live on the streets around DC. And so part of what we do is also leverage our coffee house, just to love on our neighbors, people that find themselves without a roof over their head.

And so we feel like there's a way to do business with excellence. Now. Yeah. We've been around since 2006, so way back then, there weren't all of these third wave independent coffee shops, which they pop up everywhere, right? But back in the day, it was Starbucks. We felt like, you know, if you can't compete with Starbucks, just stay out of the game.[00:08:00] 

But now more and more, the coffee business has evolved in so many amazing ways. And, and so we want to serve a great cup of coffee, but then there's this social dimension to it. And, you know, it's not like we came up with that idea. I think about someone like, uh, Tom Shoes, for example, that, that kind of famous example where buy a pair and you end up giving a pair.

And so. Yeah. There is something about that business model, though, that resonates, and I think it resonates with younger generations. I'd be interested in your take on this, because there's such a, there's an instinct towards justice, an instinct towards the good of our culture and of neighbors. And so, I'm, have you seen that as well that a lot of business models that yeah, a 

Hala Taha: lot of millennials and Gen Z like they don't care about the money necessarily like they need a [00:09:00] certain amount of money and then everything after that is more about meaning and purpose and, and you know, their place in the world rather than, you know, how much more money they can make on top of what Whatever they're already making.

So I totally agree there. So I think there's something like pretty special in what you're doing. I think it's very unique. And I just wonder, is there any way that we kind of could lay out that that business model a little bit more deeply for the listeners so they can understand like, Hey, if I have a great cause, that I want to support.

You need money to actually do that. So there is a need to actually generate revenue. And sometimes just asking for donations is just not enough and is not a proactive way to actually, you know, fulfill your dream of, of giving back to society or improving society. So talk to us about that and kind of your advice for somebody who wants to build a similar business model.

Mark Batterson: Well, maybe I'll come at that from this angle that along with this coffee house. Uh, there's another piece of property, a city block. It's a [00:10:00] hundred thousand square feet that we have been building out into something called the Capital Turnaround. Ultimately, it'll be a mixed use retail restaurant.

But one of the things we observed in our city is that our mayor said that one of the top priorities is childcare or child development, because there aren't enough spots for those preschool kids. And in DC, most people are. You know, double income. And, and so you've got people working and they need someone to watch your kids.

Well, instead of as a church building a kid's ministry space, which we did, and it's about 20, 000 square feet, it's got an indoor playground. It's got a kid's theater. It's a pretty, it's pretty amazing. But instead of using that once a week. On the weekend, we said, what if that could be a Monday to Friday child development center?

And so We have one of the largest child development centers in the city capacity for about 200 kids And and where i'm going with that [00:11:00] is I think as an entrepreneur You need a dream. You absolutely need a vision of what you want to do and it ought to be in keeping with With those passions that you have, because that's what's going to get you up early and keep you up late and give you the energy to go after that dream.

But the other thing is you, you gotta have a good pulse. You kind of have to take the pulse of the culture around you. And what are those needs? What, what, where are the gaps? Where can you as an entrepreneur step in and even find unique ways of, uh, of meeting those needs? Uh, one fun thing is, you know, I even think about.

Coffee shops. We all we have is just a coffee shop. But isn't it interesting how I've seen so many bike shop coffee shop Tandems pop up and I it's such an interesting thing to me. It's like do these two things really belong together, but I think entrepreneurs Are good at cross pollinizing and getting ideas from different [00:12:00] places.

And then, you know, let's not just do it the way it's always been done. That's how you repeat history. Why don't we make history and do it the way it's never been done before? And so, you know, part of what has driven us. as a church, and I would say driven me as a, as a entrepreneur or even as an author, is just, there are ways of doing this that no one's thought of yet.

And so that's pretty exciting. And, and I know some people are listening right now and they have an idea, and it sounds like a crazy idea, Can I just say, hang on to those crazy ideas because that, that often is the thing that's going to differentiate you from the market and, and allow you to bring something to the table that maybe no one else has tried before.

Hala Taha: I totally agree. I think your story is so inspirational. And I love it. I really find your career so interesting because when you think of a pastor, you don't think entrepreneur, but yet like so much of what you do is actually entrepreneurship. And I [00:13:00] really feel like you've hit the nail on the head in terms of like passion, but then also like financial stability and creating jobs for other people and just like helping society.

So it's just, it's, you must feel really fulfilled. So with that, I'd love to hear about all the different hats you wear because you wear a lot of hats. So let's, let's, let's unpack that a bit. 

Mark Batterson: Well, I, I, I wear a few hats. Um, you know, my, my day hat is pastoring a church and, and I love it. I feel like my job is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable in the sense of there are a lot of people hurting.

I mean, come on. One third of Americans say we're anxious or depressed. Um, there's just so much happening in culture from, from, you know, racial tension, the political polarization, and I want to be someone that, that stands in the gap and is really good at loving people and helping people. I think potential is God's gift to us.

What we do with it is our gift back to God. So that's kind of the, the pastor hat. What's interesting is the writing [00:14:00] hat. It's actually not a natural gifting. When I was in grad school, I took one of those assessments that basically shows your aptitude for different things. And my aptitude for writing was so low, it would basically whatever you do, just never think about writing a book.

So I read 3, 000 books before I wrote one because I knew that it wasn't a natural gifting, so I had to work a little bit harder than maybe other people who can naturally put pen to paper.

And so, the writing piece has just been, to be honest, a lot of early mornings. And, As a word of encouragement, because I think the latest stat I've seen is that about 81 percent feel like they might have a book in them. And so to that, that potential author that's out there listening right now, I just want you to know that.

I felt called to write at 22, but I didn't write a book until 35. So hang in there. Don't be [00:15:00] discouraged. It's going to probably take longer than you think. It might be harder than what you want, but about 13 years, but I didn't waste my time in between. I was not just reading those books. I was reverse engineering them.

And so, um, The pastor hat, the writing hat, and then that entrepreneurial hat are a few hats that I enjoy wearing. I guess maybe, I feel like right now I'm just, um, um, self diagnosing is a little bit of ADHD that I get, I get easily bored. I don't like doing the same thing for too long. And so, and my hunch is a lot of people that are listening to this podcast, kind of have that you're gifting is to start things or you have new ideas and, and it's that entrepreneurial streak.

And so hopefully there, there's some encouragement in there somewhere. 

Hala Taha: Oh yeah, your story is super inspirational and it's clear you love to make an impact and I love the fact that you said, you know, if you have the itch to write, don't worry about how old you [00:16:00] are. You're never too old to learn something new and to start something new.

Even me with this podcast, I started when I was 28. I started this podcast when I was 28 and I'm a number one podcast on the cover of podcast magazine, blah, blah, blah. And it took a few years to get there, but that it's okay, you know, and, and it wasn't my first rodeo either. And I didn't waste my time before that either.

Like you said, it's not like you just sit there and do nothing. You have to learn, gain the experience, gain the skills, and then you might be ready to kind of hit the ground running when you do want to take on something new. 

Mark Batterson: I love that. And, you know, full disclosure, I should probably share that, you know, I've had the joy of starting with a core group of 19 people pastoring this one church but my first attempt was a fail.

And I probably ought to put that out there. And so, I really believe that the cure for the fear of failure is not success. It's failure in small enough doses that you build up an immunity to it. And so I think in some ways you have to experience [00:17:00] some failure, preferably earlier in life, and then it gives you the ability that, okay, you can get back up, dust off, and give it a second try.

Because I think, you know, largely success is is well learned failure and failure is kind of poorly learned success, right? And so it's about learning those lessons along the way, especially in those, those early years where some foundation is being laid for your life. 

Hala Taha: 100%. So let's move on to your new book.

It's called do it for a day, how to make or break any habit in 30 days. And so one of the things that you say in your book is we are one habit away. from getting into shape, financial freedom, and getting better mental health. So what do you mean by that? We're one habit away from making all these changes.

Mark Batterson: Well, you know, big picture, show me your habits, I'll show you your future. Destiny is not a mystery. Destiny is daily habits. So whatever goal you're going after, I think a lot of us, we want to [00:18:00] dream big, kind of set this goal, but you have to reverse engineer it into those daily habits. So, for example. A few years ago, I ran the Chicago marathon, and it's the first one I've ever done.

And I'm not a distance runner, you know, I played some basketball in college, but I was more of a sprinter. Well, I couldn't just go out and run 26. 2 miles. I had to download a training plan and then reverse engineer it. And so, 475 miles over 72 training runs over six months. That's how things happen. Like if you want to get out of debt, it is going to happen one paycheck at a time and it's going to take tremendous discipline.

And so just a big believer in those habits and, and the word of encouragement is like, You can accomplish so much more than you imagine. The catch is you've got to have that [00:19:00] daily discipline, that daily habit. And that's going to be the thing. And it's true physically, financially, I think spiritually and relationally.

Hala Taha: One of your really, really popular books called Win The Day. You have seven life changing habits, and you use these habits in your new book. And I thought it would be great if we could do a little quick fire segment where I will rattle off these seven habits because they're just great life lessons in general.

And And, uh, I'll say the habit and then you give us a, a like, you know, 30 second, one minute explanation on each one. So the first one is flip the script. 

Mark Batterson: If you want to change your life, you have to change your story. And I think the narratives. that we are internal monologues. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy.

And so you really have to make sure [00:20:00] that you're telling the right story. And so in, in cybernetics, there are two kinds of change of first order, second order. And, uh, second order change is conceptual. It's this idea of you really. A habit can't just be something that you do. It has to become part of your identity.

Maybe the easiest way to say it is quit saying that you're writing and call yourself a writer. Quit saying that you're running and call yourself a runner. You've got to own that identity. So flip the script. You got to change the story. 

Hala Taha: I love that. I had a guest on the show. Her name is Marissa Peer, and she always says, tell yourself a better lie, like lie to yourself like you are a writer.

You are a nonce, even if you're not yet. Tell yourself a better life. 

Mark Batterson: Yep. 

Hala Taha: Okay. Kiss the wave. 

Mark Batterson: Yeah. And this is a, this is a tough one because I don't think the obstacle is the enemy. The obstacle is the way. It's the hard times that you walk through. It's the tests that [00:21:00] you go through that are going to make you the bigger, better person that you need to become.

And so kiss of the wave is this idea of I'm going to, I'm going to embrace it. Can I just on a personal note right here because I I'm guessing that there are some people that might find themselves in this situation my wife a couple years ago diagnosed with cancer and that's so hard when you get that news, but There's one or two things that you can do.

One is you can just kind of, uh, give up and sort of, um, play defense. But my wife read a piece of poetry that posed a question, and it said, What have you come to teach me? In other words, like you're going through a tough time. Maybe there's someone out there who's, who's Going through chemo or radiation or there's some kind of struggle that you're walking through you have to kiss the wave You have to learn the lesson cultivate the character make the change whatever it is And so [00:22:00] just a little challenge there to kiss the wave.

Hala Taha: Yeah, like embrace all the obstacles that come your way, basically Okay, feed the frog. 

Mark Batterson: Mark Twain said, if you ever have to eat a frog, do it first thing in the morning, then you'll know that the hardest thing is behind you, which is kind of hilarious because I can't imagine that scenario, but it's this idea of harder is better.

Do it difficult. You got to get up and hit the ground running. And so eat the frog is this idea that the way you gain strength is through resistance training. And so I talk a little bit about things we can do, commitment devices that can enable us. to really eat the frog and cultivate some of those harder disciplines, especially with that morning routine.

Hala Taha: And we will definitely talk about commitment to devices to make and break habits. All right. Fly the kite. 

Mark Batterson: Yeah. So the idea here is if you do little things like they're big things, in my experience, God has a way of [00:23:00] doing big things that like they're little things. I think we want to do. amazing things, big things.

But really, if you study exceptional athletes, for example, or musicians or people who are just really good at their craft, the reality is they're just better than the best of us at the basics. someone asked, Pablo Casals, one of the greatest cellists of all time. I think he was like in his.

late 80s, early 90s. Um, and he was still practicing like six hours a day. Imagine that. And someone asked him why. And I think his short answer was, Because I think I'm getting better It's this idea that you know flying the kite is just getting one percent better every day. It's this mindset that I want to benchmark and uh get a little bit stronger a little bit smarter than I was yesterday 

Hala Taha: Yeah, and in your book you have a quote how you do anything is how you do everything Related to fly the kite [00:24:00] and that is literally my all time favorite quote.

It has been for years. It's such a good one. Okay, cut the rope. 

Mark Batterson: Yeah, at some point, you got to take the risk. Playing it safe is risky. The greatest risk is taking no risks. and by the way, I love in my books, I usually try to include quite a bit of science and history because I like geeking out on that stuff.

stuff, but, uh, cut the rope actually comes from one of the, the, the original, the OG elevator pitch, a guy named Elisha Otis, who, uh, in the crystal palace, the, the, uh, world's fair, uh, debuted his elevator break and did it in dramatic fashion. He said, cut the rope. And an ax man little literally cut the rope and, uh, his.

Elevator break worked. And the next thing you know, there are hundreds of skyscrapers in New York City, but it traces back to someone who was [00:25:00] willing to take the risk. And, uh, without that elevator, you don't have all those skyscrapers. And so, uh, kind of a fun story to back that one up. 

Hala Taha: Oh, I love that story.

Okay, wind the clock. 

Mark Batterson: time is measured in minutes life is measured in moments And so I think what we've got to do is be a little bit better at really Enjoying the moments of life. We're in such a hurry, aren't we? I think you know 100, uh, average person spends 122 minutes on social media and I listen I love The phone, the technology, the, the way that my phone gives me access to so many things and so many people, I love it.

But there's a great danger in that we're so distracted that we can kind of miss what's happening around us. And so the idea here is, and there are actually, there are two words, um, in the Greek language for time. One is chronos, and it's this idea of the minutes. And we've got to be good at time [00:26:00] management.

Like that's part of the part of the deal. But then Kairos is not just time but opportunity. And so we also have to be better at understanding the season of life that we're in and when moments present themselves, like learning to really wind the clock and enjoy those moments. 

Hala Taha: Okay, last but not least, seed the clouds.

Mark Batterson: Yeah. And this one I have a little bit of fun on the science side because, uh, you can drop dry ice into clouds and seed the clouds and cause it to rain. There's a fun little story about the origin of that. And uh, the idea here is that you've got to, you've got to prepare today for what you want to experience tomorrow.

And you would think that this is, um, Self evident and so obvious, but the truth is most of us want to, we want to win the lottery instead of win the day. We kind of want to get lucky [00:27:00] instead of fate favors the prepared. Like let's do our homework. Let's do our groundwork. Like I imagine that, I bet you studied a lot of other podcasts, you watched what other people did, you did your homework, and then in order, and then you launch it, and then you keep learning.

And so you're always seeding the future, seeding the clouds. And so, uh, I think faith is being sure of what you hope for. And it's pretty critical that you, you won't accomplish a hundred percent of the goals that you don't set. And so I do, I have a hundred life goals. And, uh, what those goals do, by the way, is I think they, they sanctify the reticular activating system, the part of the brain that determines what we notice and what goes unnoticed.

And so what goal setting does is, okay, now I'm going to notice anything and everything related to accomplishing this goal. And so I do think that goal [00:28:00] setting is a piece of that puzzle. 

Hala Taha: Yeah. And I completely agree with you. You have to put in the reps. Just use, you used me as an example, so I'll just dig deeper on that.

I used to work at a radio station. Young and Profiting Podcast is like my fifth show. I had online radio shows. I had a YouTube show. I had a Facebook show. I built, I hacked Twitter. I hacked LinkedIn. Like I, I knew how to use social media. I did social media for corporate companies. And so I stuck all those things together and then launched my podcast.

But it was after all these things that I had been struggling with, sewing, to your point, and Tim's story calls this working your land. It's actually taking action every single day towards that bigger dream and leveling up your skills. 

Mark Batterson: I love that, uh, working your land. And uh, one of my M. O. s is this idea, and uh, Jesus actually said this, be innocent as a dove, shrewd as a snake.

And, and the idea here is. Innocent as a dove is you always have to check your [00:29:00] motives. Can I just challenge us, everybody on this call, like you got to check your ego at the door. I've got a mentor who, by the way, says there are two kinds of people in the world. The first kind of person walks into a room and internally announces, here I am.

They kind of, it's all about me, myself, and I. They're kind of feel like they're, they're God's gift to everybody. But then there's a second kind of person that walks in and says, there you are, there you are, there, it's all about everybody else. If, if you just look to add value to other people, if, if you check your ego at the door, then I really think there's no limit.

To what you can accomplish because you're not going to short circuit. It's not going to come back and bite you in the back. And so Innocent as a dove I think is key if you do the right thing for the wrong reason It's not going to turn out the way that you want it to but then you have to be shrewd as a snake and I love That because I think you've got to be really good at your game.

I want to be really good [00:30:00] at everything from communicating in public, which is what I do on the weekend to writing. I work my craft. I can literally spend an entire day like in a thesaurus trying to figure out what is the best word right here. So I, I think it's about really working hard. And the way I say it is you got to pray like it depends on God, but work like it depends on you.

And if you do those two things, usually some good things happen. 

Hala Taha: Guys, Mark is dropping so many bombs right now. I advise that you go rewind that little bit back and get inspired and motivated to work super hard. Okay, so let's talk about habit formation. So 45 percent of our behaviors are made up of habits.

If you guys listen to this podcast, you know that already. We always talk about habits on this podcast. So something interesting that I found in your book was that you say that habits. formation is as old as the Sermon on the Mount. What does that [00:31:00] mean? And is habit formation or the concept of it really that ancient?

Mark Batterson: It really is. I mean, I think long before B. F. Skinner came along or Ivan Pavlov and taught us about condition reflexes or operant conditioning. I would argue that the Sermon on the Mount, which is, is kind of Jesus most famous sort of message to the world, I can reduce it down to just six counter habits.

Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and give the shirt off your back. That's a quick way Crash Course in the Sermon on the Mount. Here's the thing. None of those things are natural. Like, if someone slaps me, my reaction is to slap them right back.

And so, what's happening here? Well, I would call them six counterhabits. And so, yeah, I think this idea is pretty ancient, and I think that [00:32:00] habit formation and spiritual formation may be the same thing. And I, I realize, you know, I love the fact that a lot of different people from a lot of different faith or non faith backgrounds listening to this.

And so you, you have to put that through your filter. But the truth is, habit formation is at the heart of anything and everything that we try to do. And so, um, yeah, I think, uh, I think Jesus had some good things to say about that. 

 So, I know that you have your habit cycle that you talk about in your book, and it's very similar to Charles Duhigg's, uh, habit loop, which is, uh, cue, routine, and reward.

Hala Taha: So, talk to us about your habit cycle and what the steps are to make or break any habit. 

Mark Batterson: Yeah. And let, let me go on record, you know, like any other writer, you're researching what [00:33:00] everybody else writes, and, and. The truth is, uh, there's nothing new under the sun. Uh, all of us are sort of reinventing, recasting so many other ideas.

So I love Charles Duhigg, great book on habits. Uh, same with Atomic Habits. So many amazing books. Um. Yeah. I take my unique slant on it and I think it is you have to, you have to identify the prompt. There's so many triggers that we have for better or for worse. And then you have to interrupt the pattern.

And that's hard to do because we are these creatures of habit. We just, the way I would say it is once a routine becomes routine, you have to change a routine. Even because. Uh, it's the law of requisite variety. It's this idea that if you go to the gym, which good for you, but if you work out the same sequence on the same machines every single time, it actually loses, [00:34:00] uh, effectiveness because your body adapts to it.

And so what a trainer will do is actually confuse your muscles. How? Well, they'll they'll give you a different incline on the bench or they'll they'll make you do some kind of exercise with a tire That instead of instead of um with a weight what they're doing is the law of requisite variety You have to change the sequence Mix it up then and only then is your body going to react to that and grow from it?

In fact, here's a little formula that that maybe people can jot down and and it's something I put into practice all the time Change of pace Plus change of place Equals change of perspective. And so what I need to do is change my pace if i'm always running at the same pace I'm gonna get in trouble because it doesn't allow me Sometimes you have to walk three miles an hour to get different mindsets or different ideas And then change a place.

There's [00:35:00] just something about for me Oh, man, get me a 30 000 feet. I just have more better ideas. I don't know what it is But that change of place is huge. And so you've got to figure out how and where you can go to change page, change place to kind of get that change of perspective. 

Hala Taha: Hmm. Very interesting stuff.

So I'd love for you to share a story with us. So in your book, you talk about the domino champ, Bob Specka, and how he did really well with that. dominoes and you describe a term called the domino effect in habit formation. So talk to us about the domino effect and this domino champ. 

Mark Batterson: Absolutely. I, you know, I think it traces back to a guy named Lauren Whitehead, an engineer who published his study in the American Journal. of physics, and it was called domino chain reaction. What he discovered is that a two inch domino is capable of knocking over a domino that's one and a half times its size. So a two inch [00:36:00] domino knock over a three inch, three inch can knock over four and a half inch. And so, I just have a little bit of fun with it.

By the time you get to the 18th domino, you can knock over the leaning tower of Pisa. Of course, it's leaning. So that's not entirely fair. Uh, you get to, I think it's the 23rd domino. You could take down the Washington Monument 27th domino, I think the Eiffel Tower and by the time you get to that 28th domino You can knock over the Burj Khalifa tallest building in the world.

It's this idea that don't get overwhelmed by the huge goals or the things that that Are so far out there just focus on that two inch domino if you write A hundred words a day and you do that five days a week. Um, that, that may not seem like much, but when that year is up, you've written yourself a book.

Uh, so don't get overwhelmed by the quantity or size, break it down [00:37:00] into those dominoes. You know, when I, when I started training for that marathon, I could barely run three miles. I it was killing me. It was killing and and and for the record Like I did not win the chicago marathon. Okay, I finished in the middle of the pack but um But for me the fact yes, I finished.

Thank you. I finished they give you a medal for finishing right? And so, um, You know you you have to start small And then just stick with it and don't try not to get too discouraged I think This idea of just do it for a day and then getting a win streak going, where two days in a row, three days in a row, that's where the magic happens.

It's about creating winning streaks, and it's breaking it down into that, that daily, uh, discipline. Maybe, can I share one other kind of simple example? 

Hala Taha: Yes, 100%, whatever you think to drive it home. 

Mark Batterson: I, you know, I think I'm a little bit concerned and this is [00:38:00] not an indictment per se and it really this doesn't matter where you land politically or anything else.

There's just a lot of negativity these days. There's a lot of negativity and one of the things that I do to fight negativity in my own life is I keep a gratitude journal, three gratitudes a day and I just jot down what am I grateful for. What, what am I like, wow, like I get to do this or I'm just so thankful for this or that or the other thing.

And what that's done in my life just by coming up with three gratitudes a day, that little daily habit totally changes my mindset, changes my heart and how I feel at the beginning and end of the day. And so that, that may be as a simple example, I promise you, you find three things you're grateful for every day.

And, uh, it can really change your outlook and your attitude and how you feel about life. 

Hala Taha: Oh, I [00:39:00] totally agree. And what you said before about, you know, taking action every day, taking these small steps really reminded me of something Jeff Hayden told us when he came on the show. Jeff Hayden's, uh, he wrote the motivation myth.

And basically it's this concept that like motivation doesn't happen first, you actually need to take action first. And then there's this motivation feedback loop where you take a little bit of action, you know, you get good results. You get motivated to do it again and then, and then you get more good results and you're motivated to do it again.

But if you don't start, you never get any of that feedback and, and people think that motivation is going to fall from the sky, but really it doesn't. You have to actually start. And yes, there's going to be ups and downs, but every time you get that up, you get that motivation to keep going. And as you learn more, you get motivation to keep going because you understand more and it just gets a little bit easier and easier every time.

Mark Batterson: That is so good and so true, because that first step is the hardest one. By the way, the key moment for me in writing that first book, after 13 years of kind of a dream [00:40:00] deferred, was I leveraged my 35th birthday and I said, I'm not going to turn 35 without a book to show for it. It may not be very good.

May not even be edited, but I'm just, I'm finally, I'm throwing down the gauntlet. And so, you know, part of it is you've got to give yourself a start date and a deadline because a dream without a deadline is called a wish. And so in some ways it's just about. You, you have to, you almost have to Jedi mind trick yourself.

You have to give yourself self imposed deadlines and, uh, and sometimes, and there are ways you can bring other people, uh, into the puzzle to kind of hold you accountable to that. But You have to know how you're wired. What's going to motivate me to really go after this.

But, uh, that, that's so true. You gotta, you cannot finish what you do not start. 

Hala Taha: Okay, so I think you are alluding to a commitment device. So what is a commitment device and how do we use it to make or break [00:41:00] habits? 

Mark Batterson: Yeah, you know, it's funny because I, I, I think, um, the most obvious commitment device is something called an alarm clock. You know, it's this idea that when you get up every day is a pretty significant factor because if you're getting up just in time to kind of eat breakfast.

Get a shower, get out the door and get to work. I don't think that's a recipe for like accomplishing your dreams. I don't think you're going to get in shape that way. I don't think you're going to get out of debt that way. I don't think you're going to grow spiritually relationally that way. And so. You really have to leverage that alarm clock.

A commitment device is simply it's giving yourself a deadline. It's putting things in place that force you to actually do what it is that you're saying that you're going to do. What's fun is I actually leverage occasionally in one of my messages, you know, and I, I have the privilege of [00:42:00] speaking to a few thousand people every weekend.

And one of the things I do, and this is a little trick of the trade is I'll go public with something because I know that then I'll hold myself accountable. So I announced in a message, Hey, I'm going to run a marathon when I couldn't even run three miles yet. So there there's a commitment device is basically something that forces your hand.

It's making that appointment. It's filling out the application. It's doing something that initiates, uh, that process and forces you to commit to it. 

Hala Taha: Yeah. And I think sometimes it can be a financial investment. You know, they always say that if you actually pay for a course or coach, you're actually going to follow through because you made that investment when it's free.

Like you're just like, Oh, well, I guess I could flake and it doesn't really matter. Um, 

Mark Batterson: That's so good, because then you have skin in the game. And so, fun fact, the coffeehouse, Ebenezer's Coffeehouse, that we [00:43:00] own and operate on Capitol Hill, it was a crack house. It was a dilapidated property, and it wasn't even zoned commercial.

The first thing I did, I was at an auction at our kids schools, and there was some book on the zoning codes for Capitol Hill. And I remember I bid 85 and it would have been a total waste of money if we didn't buy the property and eventually rezone it and eventually build the coffee house. But you know what?

I go back to that moment and it was a unique moment because I put, it was only 85 bucks, but it was me putting some skin in the game. And so. I think that's so good that you, you have to invest a little bit in it just to kind of get it off the ground. 

Hala Taha: You know, I talk to all these experts all the time, so I always have like everyone's like thoughts in my head of all the guests that I've studied over the years.

And so Gretchen Rubin recently came on the show and she breaks down the world into four personality types. And I feel like this really resonates with people [00:44:00] who are one of our personality types called obligers, which mean that they really need external accountability to get anything done. And so part of this is knowing your personality.

So like, for example, I'm an upholder and I actually don't need to. really need that much external accountability. That means that if I decide to go on a diet, I go on a diet because I told myself I would. If I want to exercise three times a week, I do it. I don't need a gym partner or a trainer or whatever to go do it.

But if that's you, and you have trouble sticking to your internal goals and anything that you don't have external accountability for, then you need commitment devices. And when you're trying to start so you need to proactively do those things to make you stick to those goals and to those habits. And so I also think, you know, knowing yourself and what you're good and not good at is key to all of this.

Mark Batterson: Oh, that's so good. And that, that maybe is where the whole thing starts that, yeah, you have to know yourself really well, that leadership starts with self leadership. And so much of that is really knowing the way that [00:45:00] you're wired. It's crazy. I think some of us know, know more about our, our favorite celebrity than we know about ourselves.

And so it's, it's that ancient idea, know thyself. 

Hala Taha: Yeah. All right. So as we wrap up this interview, a couple questions that I ask all my guests at the end of the show. What is one action we can take today to become more profitable tomorrow? 

Mark Batterson: Oh, wow. I love it. Can I just, here's the first thing that comes to mind.

When I said a hundred life goals, the turning point for me was when I shifted from getting goals to giving goals. It totally transformed the way that I think. My goal is to give it. all the way. And, uh, and so instead of setting getting goals, you set giving goals and you have to get a lot to give a lot.

But there's something about that, that setting giving goals was a huge turning point, uh, for me because it made it more of an [00:46:00] altruistic kind of motivation, which, which really changed the game for me. 

Hala Taha: Let's, let's dig deeper on that. Say a getting goal versus a giving goal or like. Flip it on its head to become giving.

Mark Batterson: Yeah. Like a getting goal is I, Hey, I want to be financially independent by 50. I want to, you know, make that first million by, or I want to have a net worth of X, Y, and Z. And I get that, like, there's nothing wrong with financial planning and planning for retirement. But my wife and I, our goal is to give a greater and greater percentage of our income away.

And part of that is motivated by what, what I see, uh, in the person of Jesus. And I see in scripture that our goal is to eventually live on 10% and give away 90%. And so what we've done with every book contract is that we give a greater percentage away. And I, I, I tell you what, that's where joy is found on the giving side of life.

And, and then. It makes the getting feel really good [00:47:00] because you know that you're going to be a conduit for blessing other people. And so, yeah, it's a simple idea that, you know, we, we want to give away a million, 10 million, you know, as a church, we, we want to give away 25 million. We've hit that goal. And so now we're dreaming bigger.

Like how can we give it all away? I think that mindset is really, uh, 

Hala Taha: Yeah, super interesting. I never heard that one before. And what is your secret to profiting in life? 

Mark Batterson: The secret I think to profiting in life is to, it's not about you, it's just, it's not about me. Uh, it's about other people. When I add value to other people's lives, that's where I find joy.

That's where I find meaning. And it's kind of like happiness. If you seek it, you aren't going to find it. Happiness is a byproduct of something else. I think meaning is the same way. Like you, and here's where I would challenge listeners. Have you ever defined [00:48:00] success for yourself? Not adopting a cultural definition, not adopting your great uncle's definition.

No, you. What, what is success for you? And so, for me personally, success is when those who know me best respect me most. And that's my wife and my kids. You know, it's not about how many books I sell, how many people I pastor. It really is about am, am I, am I better in private than I am in public? And if not, am I at least the same person?

I want to be famous in my own home. Uh, so you really have to define success for yourself and figure out otherwise you fall into what, what Stephen Covey famously said. So many people are so busy climbing the ladder of success that they fail to realize that it's leaning against the wrong wall. 

Hala Taha: Man, that was so powerful.

Mark Batterson: Yeah, for me, success is when those who know me best respect me most and that's my wife and kids. And so [00:49:00] really, um, and, and especially right in the world that we live in where a lot of people, there's just a lot of, come on, there's a lot of trolling.

And shaming and baiting and canceling and kind of everybody's doing this to everybody at the end of the day I care most about the people who know me and love me you start there Make sure that that grass is green right right where you live And then let it expand out from there 

Hala Taha: That is amazing advice.

Thank you so much, Mark. This was such a lovely conversation. I loved learning about your journey. I loved learning about your perspective related to habits. And then this last bit about, uh, you know, your, your secret to profiting in life was also amazing. So thank you so much for your time. 

Mark Batterson: My joint privilege, God bless.